Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[LoveofTruth]

If you believe that salvation can be lost, you have a serious problem with both john 10:28 .

Jesus showed the condition even n the verse before John 10:28

we read in verse 27

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

We see the sheep must hear and follow him. To follow him is a condition. If they do not follow him they will fall away. So they must continue in his word if they believe and continue in the faith and continue in the grace of God as we see in scripture and this must be unto the end (Hebrews 3) or they can depart from God through an evil heart of unbelief.

We see even peter following Jesus from a distance and then warming his hands at the fire of unbelievers and then denying Jesus and had to be converted again.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I agree with this. Of course this is true. But you just see it very differently, by your refusal or just failure to understand the issue of fellowship.

Believers are children of the light we are not of the darkness. If a believer walks in the light then hardens his heart and walks in the darkness he is not of the light anymore but a child of darkness as scripture shows and in Him is no darkness at all and we are in hi if we abide in him and he in us. And as he is so are we. To say while we walk in darkness that we are of the light is a lie according to scripture.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

and the disciples "followed " Jesus John 10:27, this is one of the conditions. And those who walk in darkness are not following Jesus.

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

so to abide in darkness means you are not believing on Jesus.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

So when John shows that if a man says he is in the light but hates his brother he is in darkness. That means he is an unbeliever at that time and does not have eternal life abiding ( remaining) in him at that time. John is talking about the fellowship in the Light of salvation and abiding in Christ with the father and the son.

Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:"

1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

so when a believer walks in darkness and you say they only loose fellowship and not salvation at that point or that they are still in the light., you error. as the above verse shows. And as John sowed when he shows that if we say we are in the light but walk in darkness we lie.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

while they who believed in Jesus at that time does point to the present tense. Believing is a daily thing just as faith is and there are verses that show a person in the ongoing tense and that they can go to a point in believing and then that believing can end and they can fall away. Just as we must also continue in the faith.

Your unsupported bias continues, I see.

I asked for a Greek grammar text that supports your notion that results of a current action occur only as long as the "current action" continues. You have not provided any evidence.

here is an example of that

"Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

This shows clearly that belief is an present reality and also an ongoing one and that it can end.

I never said it couldn't. Of course it can. Because Jesus said so.

Did you know that in the previous verse, Jesus used the aorist tense for "lest they believe and be saved". Do you understand the importance of this?

also we read

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

as long as we are alive and have breath we must believe.

I missed the words "as long as...", which it seems the OSNAS crowd just can't seem to resist ADDING to Scripture. Why?

Paul also said

"1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain"

showing an ongoing action as well as a present tense reality

The verse needs to be exegetes in order to understand it properly.

To "keep in memory" is a single Greek word, which means "hold fast" or "possess". So, the word (gospel) that Paul preached must be possessed in order to be saved.

The second point is that "in vain" means "without reason or purpose". iow, one must have a purpose in what they have believed.

Is one saved by believing in Jesus Christ for a better financial status? Of course not. Why? The purpose is "in vain", or without reason.

The Bible uses the aorist tense for 'believe' for salvation many times. The point here is that from a moment in time (past time) one IS saved.

To claim that results from current action requires the current action to continue is false.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

and

Psalm 106:12
Then believed they his words; they sang his praise."

they didn't believe just one word at that one moment. To believe his words plural means to believe all they hear. This is present and ongoing action.

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.

believers must continue in His word...ongoing

Yes, believers are encouraged to continue in the faith. But, for what purpose?

If you answer, "to continue to be saved", you're going to have to provide clear evidence of the Bible saying that.

And Greek grammar doesn't help you out in any way. In fact, the aorist tense refutes your opinion.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.


Yes, believers are encouraged to continue in the faith. But, for what purpose?

If you answer, "to continue to be saved", you're going to have to provide clear evidence of the Bible saying that.

And Greek grammar doesn't help you out in any way. In fact, the aorist tense refutes your opinion.

Eternal security is clear from Romans 8.38-39.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus showed the condition even n the verse before John 10:28

we read in verse 27

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

We see the sheep must hear and follow him. To follow him is a condition.

A condition for what, specifically? The clear words of v27 contain NO conditions. The verse is a description of His sheep, NOT a condition for being His sheep.

Anyone fluent in English understands this.

Do you understand the difference between a description and a condition?

If they do not follow him they will fall away. So they must continue in his word if they believe and continue in the faith and continue in the grace of God as we see in scripture and this must be unto the end (Hebrews 3) or they can depart from God through an evil heart of unbelief.

Do you realize that none of this leads to losing salvation?

We see even peter following Jesus from a distance and then warming his hands at the fire of unbelievers and then denying Jesus and had to be converted again.

Really? Where does the Bible say he "had to be converted again"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believers are children of the light we are not of the darkness. If a believer walks in the light then hardens his heart and walks in the darkness he is not of the light anymore but a child of darkness as scripture shows and in Him is no darkness at all and we are in hi if we abide in him and he in us. And as he is so are we. To say while we walk in darkness that we are of the light is a lie according to scripture.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

and the disciples "followed " Jesus John 10:27, this is one of the conditions. And those who walk in darkness are not following Jesus.

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

so to abide in darkness means you are not believing on Jesus.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

So when John shows that if a man says he is in the light but hates his brother he is in darkness. That means he is an unbeliever at that time and does not have eternal life abiding ( remaining) in him at that time. John is talking about the fellowship in the Light of salvation and abiding in Christ with the father and the son.

Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:"

1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

so when a believer walks in darkness and you say they only loose fellowship and not salvation at that point or that they are still in the light., you error. as the above verse shows. And as John sowed when he shows that if we say we are in the light but walk in darkness we lie.

I have explained the principle of fellowship many times. Either you're not listening or you simply do not understand.

So why do you continue, for either reason?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm offering my opinion of what it seems your posts indicate.

Thank you.

I'm not sure it was a compliment!

Huh? What metaphors in these verses? The "seal"? This is a literal seal, the Holy Spirit. Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit is a isn't literal? Or a metaphor?[/QUOTE +
You sound intelligent enough to know what the metaphor is about --- don't be coyish. Sorry for being personal but it couldn't be helped... Don't fish.

lol. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with once sealed always sealed? That's the only relevant point here. And I changed nothing.

I was pointing out that once saved always saved can be said once sealed always sealed. If you disagree, please proceed with an explanation for why.

There are a few reasons why the sealing is not a valid point.
1. All of the scriptures in the bible must be reconciled to each other. If loss of salvation is obvious, one cannot take a few verses and understand them out of context.

2. Paul was speaking to persons of a different era. WE might understand that a seal cannot be unsealed, but, in fact, in can.
Many times a king would send out a decree with a seal on it. Did this mean he could not change his mind? NO. He would send out another decree nullifying the first. Thus making the first of no effect.

3. What does the word "seal" mean? It means to be maked with a special mark. Which indeed we are. And yes, we are sealed but we are also asked NOT TO GRIEVE the Holy Spirit. If we do grieve the Holy Spirit, will we still be sealed? Jesus said we will not be forgiven the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, that is, to deny the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 2:12b

4. Mathew 27:66
After Jesus was put in the grave, it was made secure by the guards and they set a seal on it. The seal was broken. Any seal can be broken --- even today a seal on an envelope can be broken.

5. Ephesians 4:30 We are sealed UNTO the day of redemption. The seal is an earnest or a guarantee. An earnest is a down payment. ALL the payments must be made in order to receive our reward, heaven, at the end of our time. We are guaranteed the reward IF we follow God's commandments.

We'll pause right here. You don't have any verse that supports your opinion about "no longer being His sheep". So please don't make stuff up.

JESUS' words did not satisfy you?
HE said:

John 3:31
New International Version
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples."

We are Jesus' sheep. We are Jesus' disciples. The idea is intercvhangeable. JESUS SAID IF we do not hold on to HIS teaching we are not really His disciples, we are not really His sheep. This means that if we DO hold to HIS teachings we ARE his sheep, and if we abandon HIS TEACHINGS we are not His sheep.

Don't forget that once IN CHRIST, we can't get out, as it seems you are insinuating here. Again, you have no verses about being UNsealed from the Holy Spirit and being removed from being IN Him.

And none of this is related to either receiving or maintaining salvation. Therefore, it isn't relevant to the discussion of eternal security.

Maybe YOU could explain
2 Peter 2:20-22

No He is not. Did you read 5:24? Scroll back 4 verses:
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and WILL NOT be concdemned, he has crossed over from death to life."

Did you notice the 3 tenses: past, present and future all in that verse?

Thanks for capitalizing HAS.
HEARS
BELIEVES
HAS
All present tense. We must BELIEVE when we are at our death in order to be saved.
John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES. PRESENT TENSE.

These are promises (guarantees). This verse, along with John 10:28, teach eternal security on the basis of believing in Christ.

The only guarantee in the N.T. is the one of being saved if you CONTINUE in your belief:

Romans 11:21-22
Hebrews 10:26-27
Mathew 5:13
1 Corinthians 9:27
2 Peter 3:17
I especially like, since it refers to our discussion:
1 John 2:24

Perhaps You could pick two and exegete? Perhaps you could include 1 John 2:24?

Yes, I noticed that. What I also notice is that Jesus DIDN'T say "if you continue in My word, then you will STAY SAVED", which it seems you believe He meant.

If this is true, why did Jesus leave out the "if you continue" part that you've INSERTED into the verse? You have no authority to do that.

Oh. Jesus did not say enough? YOU want to teach HIM how to speak?
LOL
Here it is again:
IF YOU HOLD ON TO MY TEACHING YOU ARE REALLY MY DISCIPLES.

If we ARE NOT Jesus' disciples, are we making it to heaven??

Let's just please stay with what Jesus actually said in John 10:28.

Did you notice that Jesus was teaching us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse?

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ, by "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing, by "and they shall never perish".

What is clear is that on the basis of receiving eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. No conditions, no "as long as..." and no "if's...".

Please don't try to put words into Jesus' mouth. He can speak for Himself. Our responsibility is to believe what He says. All of it.


Another great passage on eternal security.


Except, of course, Rom 8:38 doesn't give you the right to your own personal opinion on the matter. Notice that Paul indicated that NEITHER the present nor the future can separate us from the love of Christ.

Do you understand what the "future" includes? Well, everything that may occur IN the future. So your opinion about "ourselves" is in error.

And, the ONLY condition for being saved is to believe in Christ.

YOU seem to have your very own personal opinion about every verse. You do love John 10:28, unfortunately there are many many verses, and I've posted many of them, that teach we can lose our salvation.

And those early church fathers beat John Calvin every time.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.


Yes, believers are encouraged to continue in the faith. But, for what purpose?

If you answer, "to continue to be saved", you're going to have to provide clear evidence of the Bible saying that.

And Greek grammar doesn't help you out in any way. In fact, the aorist tense refutes your opinion.

You are sounding high minded here

I used simple scriptures I am not going to bog down people here with different tenses in Greek etc. The text speak for themselves to believe for a while shows that belief is a present and future ongoing tense

Here is an interesting article

There are many others that are very in-depth in language and study but this is easier for some to see

The Continuous Present Tense of John 3:16

 

[LoveofTruth]

A condition for what, specifically? The clear words of v27 contain NO conditions. The verse is a description of His sheep, NOT a condition for being His sheep.

Anyone fluent in English understands this.

Do you understand the difference between a description and a condition?


Do you realize that none of this leads to losing salvation?


Really? Where does the Bible say he "had to be converted again"?

Jesus shows the condition he said

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life”

Jesus said they must follow him , in another place he says they must hear , believe, abide in him these are all conditions even in John 10:27 Jesus says they hear and follow him, in this part he is describing what they do but he already said earlier than John 10 the condition “he that followeth me” and in other verses they must repent and believe

 

[GodsGrace101]

Absolutely true!! But not for maintain salvation. There are no verses about that.

What most OSNAS types think is that abiding is about the person having the power to remove themselves from being IN Christ. Well, no one has that much power.

To abide is something we DO. But it has nothing to do with salvation, because we have NOTHING to do about being saved. All we can do is receive salvation by faith. Eph 2:8

So, to abide is about being IN fellowship. That's a choice we make.

Paul gave us 4 specific commands regarding the Holy Spirit
1. be filled with the Spirit Eph 5;18
2. walk by the Spirit Gal 5:16
3. stop grieving the Spirit Eph 4:30
4. stop quenching the Spirit 1 Thess 5:19

The first 2 commands are about being IN fellowship. The lasts 2 are about being OUT of fellowship if we are doing those things.

I wonder if you are aware of these commands and their significance?

Even WHEN a believer grieves the Spirit, Paul reminds us of what the Spirit has done for us in Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Do you understand what "for the day of redemption" refers to? We are eternally secure on the basis of being sealed by the Spirit; EVEN WHEN we grieve Him.

What do you mean by "grieve the Holy Spirit"?
Do you mean one sin?
Or do you mean a life of sin?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Oh, quite a claim. Can you back it up with ANY verses? What makes your claim true?


Right. let's just ignore what any word means.


I hate to break it to you, but you do NOT have any power to effect your own salvation.

What you DO have the power (choice) to do is to either be IN fellowship with the Lord or OUT of fellowship with the Lord, as I showed in my last post about the commands regarding the Holy Spirit.


What "definitely happens before we know Christ"? I'm not following your line of thought.

We don't have power to affect our own salvation?
What does John 3:16 mean?
It seems that you believe in free will.

If we have fellowship with God, we are saved.
If we DO NOT have fellowship with God, how can we be saved?

I don't ignore what words mean.
Some words require no explanation and when they are explained it's always someone trying to change their meaning.
There's only one word in the N.T. that is very important to understand the meaning and that is the word "believe".

 

[GodsGrace101]

and

Psalm 106:12
Then believed they his words; they sang his praise."

they didn't believe just one word at that one moment. To believe his words plural means to believe all they hear. This is present and ongoing action.


Proverbs 14:15
"The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going."

again believing every word is not believing one single word. So showing present and ongoing belief.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

this is applying an ongoing belief to prayer showing a present tense during the prayer and an ongoing tense for future prayer.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

believers must continue in His word...ongoing

Seems easy enough to understand...
For those who WANT to understand.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.

You are sounding high minded here

Are you unable to take correction?

I used simple scriptures I am not going to bog down people here with different tenses in Greek etc.

Well, of course you aren't. Because Greek grammar doesn't help your case, and in fact, refutes your claims about the present tense.

The text speak for themselves to believe for a while shows that belief is a present and future ongoing tense

Actually, belief is a noun. It has no tense. Just more evidence that you do not know what you are talking about.

But of course there are examples of 'believe' in the aorist (past), present, and future tenses. So what?

Here is an interesting article

There are many others that are very in-depth in language and study but this is easier for some to see

The Continuous Present Tense of John 3:16

Here is how the article opens:
"As I was reading and studying in John today, I learned something that I’ve never heard before. As my disclaimer I did not have a ton of time to research what I’m about to share and need to finish researching it, but I found it interesting. "

That pretty much tells us all we need to know. The writer needs to finish his research.

Second, there is no such thing as a "continous present tense" in the Greek. The writer simply made that stuff up.

I have Dan Wallace's intermediate Greek textbook, "Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics" and I can't any mention of such a tense.

This is what Wallace says about the basic meaning of the present tense, from p.514:

"With reference to aspect, the present tense is internal (that is, it portrays the action from the inside of the event, without special regard for the beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion). The present tense's portrayal of an event "focuses on its developoment or progress and sees the occurrence in regard to its internal make-up, without beginning or end in view." italics his.

He says nothing about the results of a present tense action being dependent upon the continuation of the action, as your view demands.

Doing so is an abuse of the Greek present tense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We don't have power to affect our own salvation?

I wish you were kidding here. Of course you DON'T.

Aren't you aware of the clear distinction between grace and works?

Start with Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

then go to Eph 2:8,9.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Then Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

What does John 3:16 mean?

It means exactly what it says. Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. No different than John 5:24 and 10:28.

It seems that you believe in free will.

I do. Because the Bible so indicates.

Consider John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Or Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

To believe is to receive salvation. It is passive. You do nothing to be saved. You receive salvation on the basis of believing, which is not doing.

If we have fellowship with God, we are saved.
If we DO NOT have fellowship with God, how can we be saved?

I don't ignore what words mean.

I guess not.

Some words require no explanation and when they are explained it's always someone trying to change their meaning.

Please show me where I've ever "tried to change the meaning of any word".

There's only one word in the N.T. that is very important to understand the meaning and that is the word "believe".

If you think believing is doing something, which is really a work, then you are confused.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You know about ad hominems. Maybe you could learn to use syntax so it would be easier to answer you ... without having to go back and forth to what I said to which you're replying.

As to being personal..this is personal; you said:
I'm guessing you are not familiar with the purpose of metaphors and figures of speech.
Please don't "guess" anything about me. We don't know each other...let's just stick to scripture.

Also, you sure do put a lot out there - it would take an hour to reply to you.

You ask for verses with no metaphors or figures of speech and then you give me Epesians 1:13-14 and Ephesians 4:30. Interesting; I guess YOU can do what you don't want ME to do.

As to OSAS, have you changed the meaning of what these letters stand for? (once sealed always sealed) I don't think you can take it upon yourself to change the meaning of OSAS.

So, we'll take your verses one by one.

John 10:28
Jesus never lies. Those who go through the door are the shepherd of the sheep. John 10:2.
The doorkeeper opens the door, this would be God (sorry about the metaphors, but, as you must surely know, Jesus did speak in metaphors) since it is God who recognizes the shepherd and lets Him into the gate where all the sheep await him.
Ezekiel 34:11

The sheep know the voice of the shepherd and FOLLOW HIM.
If we stop following the shepherd, we are no longer His sheep.

Then Jesus explains the above.
John 10:7
Jesus is the door. If any man enters through the door he will be saved.

Jesus has come to bring to believers an abundant and joyful life.
John 10:10 If we are IN CHRSIT, we have this abundant life, if we are NOT IN CHRIST, we will not have this life of which Jesus speaks.

See Hebrews 13:16-21 which states that Jesus is the good shepherd-
16And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

18Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things. 19And I urge you all the more to do this, so that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, 21equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

You'll notice in the above that there are conditions to be kept.
1. We must do good.
2. We must submit to our leaders.
3. We must conduct ourselves honorably.
4. We must do His will.

Jesus Himself stated that if we do not do the above, we will be judged to condemnation.
John 5:28-29
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

It's plain by Jesus' words that He is speaking about being condemned and losing our salvation if we do not CONTINUE in His ways and return to a life of doing evil. He is NOT speaking about gaining crowns in the afterlife, but losing heaven.

JESUS said:
John 8:31
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;


So, yes, John 10:28 is true IF we are sheep of the shepherd and IF WE CONTINUE IN HIS WORD.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
Romans 8:38-29

Except, of course, OURSELVES, by not following the conditions to being saved.

What does John 10:28 and Ephesians 1:13 have in common? Lol they were both followers of Christ. The branches who are grafted in are pruned why? because they already produced fruit and they are pruned so they can produce more fruit.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.

Are you unable to take correction?


Well, of course you aren't. Because Greek grammar doesn't help your case, and in fact, refutes your claims about the present tense.


Actually, belief is a noun. It has no tense. Just more evidence that you do not know what you are talking about.

But of course there are examples of 'believe' in the aorist (past), present, and future tenses. So what?


Here is how the article opens:
"As I was reading and studying in John today, I learned something that I’ve never heard before. As my disclaimer I did not have a ton of time to research what I’m about to share and need to finish researching it, but I found it interesting. "

That pretty much tells us all we need to know. The writer needs to finish his research.

Second, there is no such thing as a "continous present tense" in the Greek. The writer simply made that stuff up.

I have Dan Wallace's intermediate Greek textbook, "Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics" and I can't any mention of such a tense.

This is what Wallace says about the basic meaning of the present tense, from p.514:

"With reference to aspect, the present tense is internal (that is, it portrays the action from the inside of the event, without special regard for the beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion). The present tense's portrayal of an event "focuses on its developoment or progress and sees the occurrence in regard to its internal make-up, without beginning or end in view." italics his.

He says nothing about the results of a present tense action being dependent upon the continuation of the action, as your view demands.

Doing so is an abuse of the Greek present tense.

The Greek and tenses do not fight against what I am saying I simply do not want to bog down many with complex grammatical arguments

But this was also a quote from that page I referenced

“Throughout this passage an important truth is presented that again might be missed by many English translations. When Jesus describes the one who comes to him and who believes in him [3:16, 5:24, 6:35, 37, 40, 47, etc.], he uses the present tense to describe this coming, believing , or, in other passages, hearing or seeing. The present tense refers to a continuous, on-going action. The Greek contrasts this kind of action against the aorist tense, which is a point action, a single action in time that is not on-going…… The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not truly and continuously believe. The faith that saves is living faith, a faith that always looks to Christ as Lord and Savior.”[1]

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.

Are you unable to take correction?


Well, of course you aren't. Because Greek grammar doesn't help your case, and in fact, refutes your claims about the present tense.


Actually, belief is a noun. It has no tense. Just more evidence that you do not know what you are talking about.

But of course there are examples of 'believe' in the aorist (past), present, and future tenses. So what?


Here is how the article opens:
"As I was reading and studying in John today, I learned something that I’ve never heard before. As my disclaimer I did not have a ton of time to research what I’m about to share and need to finish researching it, but I found it interesting. "

That pretty much tells us all we need to know. The writer needs to finish his research.

Second, there is no such thing as a "continous present tense" in the Greek. The writer simply made that stuff up.

I have Dan Wallace's intermediate Greek textbook, "Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics" and I can't any mention of such a tense.

This is what Wallace says about the basic meaning of the present tense, from p.514:

"With reference to aspect, the present tense is internal (that is, it portrays the action from the inside of the event, without special regard for the beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion). The present tense's portrayal of an event "focuses on its developoment or progress and sees the occurrence in regard to its internal make-up, without beginning or end in view." italics his.

He says nothing about the results of a present tense action being dependent upon the continuation of the action, as your view demands.

Doing so is an abuse of the Greek present tense.

As much as I dislike some of the things that James White says here he is interesting

“One of the leading advocates of Calvinist predestination is Dr. James White. He is the author of Drawn by the Father: A Summary of John 6:35-45 (1999). He explains that the present tense for "come" in John 6:37 as well as "believe," "see" and "hear" in other verses in John's Gospel (such as John 3:16) signifies in Greek continuing action. He says:

Throughout this passage an important truth is presented that again might be missed by many English translations. When Jesus describes the one who comes to him and who believes in him (3:16, 5:24, 6:35, 37, 40, 47, etc.), he uses the present tense to describe this coming, believing, or, in other passages, hearing or seeing. The present tense refers to a continuous, on-going action. The Greek contrasts this kind of action against the aorist tense, which is a point action, a single action in time that is not on-going.... The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not truly and continuously believe. The faith that saves is a living faith, a faith that always looks to Christ as Lord and Savior. (White, id., at 10-11)(emphasis added).

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.

Are you unable to take correction?


Well, of course you aren't. Because Greek grammar doesn't help your case, and in fact, refutes your claims about the present tense.


Actually, belief is a noun. It has no tense. Just more evidence that you do not know what you are talking about.

But of course there are examples of 'believe' in the aorist (past), present, and future tenses. So what?


Here is how the article opens:
"As I was reading and studying in John today, I learned something that I’ve never heard before. As my disclaimer I did not have a ton of time to research what I’m about to share and need to finish researching it, but I found it interesting. "

That pretty much tells us all we need to know. The writer needs to finish his research.

Second, there is no such thing as a "continous present tense" in the Greek. The writer simply made that stuff up.

I have Dan Wallace's intermediate Greek textbook, "Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics" and I can't any mention of such a tense.

This is what Wallace says about the basic meaning of the present tense, from p.514:

"With reference to aspect, the present tense is internal (that is, it portrays the action from the inside of the event, without special regard for the beginning or end), but it makes no comment as to fulfillment (or completion). The present tense's portrayal of an event "focuses on its developoment or progress and sees the occurrence in regard to its internal make-up, without beginning or end in view." italics his.

He says nothing about the results of a present tense action being dependent upon the continuation of the action, as your view demands.

Doing so is an abuse of the Greek present tense.

I could post all day about the present tense and ongoing aspect of believing

But then we would get bogged down with men’s interpretations of Greek etc and as in this discussion there are men on both sides

Stick with scripture I showed that belief can be for a while then they can fall away when I speak of believe I also connect it with keeping the faith and daily living by faith

Notice in John 3:16 Jesus did not say “that whosever believed (past tense) in me had everlasting life” no he said John 3 - 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” whosoever believeth this is a present tense and a ongoing one he did not say “believed” past tense.

Anyway this this applies to many verses in the NT

And when Paul said we are saved “if” we keep in memory what he preached. This also shows a continuous need to keep or hold onto the belief we first had. The word “if” right after saved shows a condition to continue.

We are told to lay hold of eternal life and to hold fast unto the end and that we are kept by the power of God through faith.

Anyway there are so many scriptures I could post about the need to continue abide lay hold overcome etc it would take all day to post and comment on them

 

[Doug Melven]

If men come to him and believe why would Jesus cast them out. He cares for the hungry soul and those who need his rest that he gives and salvation in that rest.As long as they continue to believe in him they have life. But Jesus said in Luke that men can believe and be saved for a while and they fall away.

Jesus said those who come to Him He will in no way cast out.
But you say there is a condition they have to meet.
But Jesus didn't put any conditions on it.

I am curious as to what you think the difference is between the Old and New Covenants.
Because we are not under the Old Covenant, we are under the New Covenant. Yet you quote verses from the Old Covenant thinking they pertain to the new.