Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[LoveofTruth]

The difference between you and I is I see the Scripture as absolute, you don't.
1 John 4:17 is a perfect example. It is not conditional in any way.
The verse says "As Christ is so are we in this world". Right now, we are just like Christ is right now.
Hebrews 3:14 says we are partakers of Christ. Not even close to matching up.
My experience says I am not like Christ at all.
I still sin. Christ does not.
I don't know everything. Christ is omniscient.

Another example is 1 John 3:6.
This verse says we do not commit sin, in fact we can't sin because the seed of God remains in us.
But, believers still sin. So our experience doesn't match the Scripture.
You think this verse is referring to repentance. As in once we are born-again we do our best to stop sinning.
But, the verse we can't sin. Not we won't or shouldn't sin because we are born-again. It says we can't sin.
There is a big difference between can't and won't.
Sometimes people will be asked to do something and they reply that they can't.
So then they are asked, "Can't or won't"?
Won't means you are capable but you decide not to for whatever reason. Maybe afraid of the consequences.
But, if you can't, that means you are incapable of doing such a thing.
Remember the verse says, "We can't sin".

I accept the Scripture as is. I don't try to change it to match my experience.
My perception of reality can lie to me.
I deny my experience if it doesn't line up with Scripture.
So, how is it that a person who is born of God can't sin.
We are more than just body and soul. We are spirit also.
My body was not reborn when I accepted Christ. I was about 20 pounds overweight when I did. Now 30 years later I am about 50 pounds overweight and balding.
My soul was not made new. I didn't know everything then, and I still don't know everything. 1 John 2:20, 27
My spirit which was dead, has been reborn, made alive. In my spirit which is one with God ( 1 Corinthians 6:17 )
knows everything and is completely righteous and just like Jesus Christ.

The key to having victory over sin is to “abide” in Christ by continual believe daily and to die daily so that the life of Christ might be made manifest in our mortal bodies. And to let him and his word abide in us. We must through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body then we shall live in Christ.

Jesus speaks of “abiding” in him as the key to all our eternal life, fruits fellowship, ministry and continuing in the Son and the Father.

John says clearly that if we abide in Christ we sin not. John wrote 1 John that they “sin not” and he shows how to overcome the world.

This reality is the true experience of all believers as they abide in Christ. We must never say to any that your still abiding in Christ and walking in the light while they wilfully sin and walk in darkness . John is clear in this and warns of those who say they are in the light but walk in darkness he says they lie and do not the truth.

He says such things in 1 John 1 in 1 John 2:24,25 and 1 John 3:6-10 etc

If a person does not abide (remain, continue, dwell) in Christ then they can fall away and be cast forth with a fearful looking for of judgement and fire and they have fallen from grace and Christ shall profit them nothing. They will be “without Christ” and withered. But if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Then please show me exactly where in that verse Jesus mentioned anything about abiding. I've already explained John 15, so by now, I expect that you've read it. So please don't bring it up again. It's irrelevant to the issue of salvation.


But no one can. I also shared Eph 1:1314, with 4:30 to prove that you can't.

Jesus spoke through John about abiding for eternal life in 1 John 2:24,35 1 John 3:6-10,15. Etc

And John 15 is very relevant and related to salvation you seem afraid of that chapter so try to avoid it

It exposes your doctrine clearly and also Luke 8 dies about those who believe for a while then fall away

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus spoke through John about abiding for eternal life in 1 John 2:24,35 1 John 3:6-10,15. Etc

And John 15 is very relevant and related to salvation you seem afraid of that chapter so try to avoid it

Nonsense. I've explained it every time it comes up. This does suggest that you don't read my posts. Are you just speaking over me? Ignoring what I post, and then just firing off another "talking point" post?

It exposes your doctrine clearly and also Luke 8 dies about those who believe for a while then fall away

I've explained the meaning of "abiding" many times. It's clear you're not even interested in understanding it. You've got your biases and the need to hold onto your biases in order to support your OSNAS view.

 

[Doug Melven]

Could YOU now explain John 15:1-6 to me? Like I did with John 10:28...
Jesus is telling us that HE is the vine and WE are the branches. IF we abide in Him, we bear much fruit. IF WE DO NOT ABIDE in Him, we are thrown away as a branch, we dry up because we have been removed from the SOURCE of our LIFE, we are gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

Jesus said if we abide in Him we will bear much fruit. If we don't abide in Him we will be cut off.
Does it say cut off from eternal life? No.
Because later in the passage He says that men, not God or angels, will gather them up and burn them.
This is talking about this life, not the next.
It is very important to abide in Christ if we want to bear fruit, see Galatians 5:22-23.
But if we are not abiding in Him, that is spending time in prayer and studying His Word, we will not see fruit in our life. There is nothing here about losing eternal life or salvation.

I listed about 10 up above, could YOU list 10 to support your view? No. Because your view is not biblical.

1 Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
2 Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
3 Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
4 Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
5 Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
6 Hebrews
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
7 1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Notice the 2 different believe's in this verse. The first one gives us eternal life. We possess it. We also need to believe for blessings. Not continue to believe to get something we already possess.
8 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
9 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Yet some people think Jesus will cast us out or cut us off from eternal life.
10 Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
11 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
You don't belong to you anymore. Once you were joined to the LORD, you belong to Him now.

As to your sins: God forgives us all our sins as long as we are sorry for them and ask Him for forgiveness.

Scripture please?

If someone ABANDONS Jesus and goes back to a life of sin and evil, he HATES Jesus.
Jesus said this, not me.

Did He actually say that?
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Where does it say anything about abandoning?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Nonsense. I've explained it every time it comes up. This does suggest that you don't read my posts. Are you just speaking over me? Ignoring what I post, and then just firing off another "talking point" post?


I've explained the meaning of "abiding" many times. It's clear you're not even interested in understanding it. You've got your biases and the need to hold onto your biases in order to support your OSNAS view.

I read your post very carefully and answer sometimes almost every word of your error in great detail

I understand what abide means and I have shown you the Greek meaning and the contextual meaning and you twist It o try hard to fit your theology

But if a believer does not abide in Christ he is cast forth as a branch and withered and is “without Christ” and is in danger of being cast into the fire . This fire is hell fire and to be without Christ he can do nothing abd he is none of his if he does not have the Spirit of Christ in him and as Jesus said through Paul

Romans 8 - 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. “

Notice the “if”part again . Yet you say they are still saved and in Christ no matter what.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus said if we abide in Him we will bear much fruit. If we don't abide in Him we will be cut off.
Does it say cut off from eternal life? No.
Because later in the passage He says that men, not God or angels, will gather them up and burn them.
This is talking about this life, not the next.
It is very important to abide in Christ if we want to bear fruit, see Galatians 5:22-23.
But if we are not abiding in Him, that is spending time in prayer and studying His Word, we will not see fruit in our life. There is nothing here about losing eternal life or salvation.

1 Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
2 Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
3 Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
4 Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
5 Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
6 Hebrews
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
7 1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Notice the 2 different believe's in this verse. The first one gives us eternal life. We possess it. We also need to believe for blessings. Not continue to believe to get something we already possess.
8 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
9 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Yet some people think Jesus will cast us out or cut us off from eternal life.
10 Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
11 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
You don't belong to you anymore. Once you were joined to the LORD, you belong to Him now.
Scripture please?

Did He actually say that?
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Where does it say anything about abandoning?

1 John 1 - 6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. “

Notice the “we” part referring to believers and the lie part. All liars shall have thier part in the lake of fire

And notice how some can try and say they are saved in the light but then walk in darkness. This is like those who say they are OSAS and yet walk in darkness.

And

1 John 2 - 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him... 9. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. ..11. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.”

And here is how the warning of hating a brother in darkness relates to eternal life

1 John 3 - 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”

There’s that word abiding again
And so John exhirts them to remain n and continue and let the word abide in them to continue in eternal life

1 John 2 - 24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.”

 

[Doug Melven]

Jesus speaks of “abiding” in him as the key to all our eternal life, fruits fellowship, ministry and continuing in the Son and the Father.

Jesus did not say that abiding in Him was the key to eternal life. You added that in there.
The rest of that quote is true.
If we want victory in this life, we must abide in Him.

If a person does not abide (remain, continue, dwell) in Christ then they can fall away and be cast forth with a fearful looking for of judgement and fire and they have fallen from grace and Christ shall profit them nothing. They will be “without Christ” and withered. But if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.

Jesus said in John 6:37 that whoever comes to Him He would in no way cast out.
Either we have a contradiction in Scripture or Jesus is not referring to the same thing.
John 6:37 is talking about eternal life,
John 15 is referring to this life: victory, fruit, service, etc.

In Jeremiah 31 God tells us He is going to make a New Covenant and it would not be like the Old Covenant because the people broke it.
For most Christians today the New Covenant is just like the Old.
Similarities
It can be broken.
We must keep the law (do good works).

The only difference they see is that we don't have to give blood sacrifices to get forgiveness of sins.
Some Christians even say we still have to give sacrifices to be forgiven. They mean the sacrifices of God being a broken and contrite heart. We must give this sacrifice for each sin.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

This title alone troubles me. The gospel is not "eternal security"

the gospel is this

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"(1 Cor 15;1-4 KJV)

Notice that they are saved "if they keep the gospel in memory. If they do not do this they have believed in vain, or their faith is vain and empty, for no reason.

There is condition of continuing in the faith and abiding in Christ overcoming by his power in us to the end.

read Hebrews 3 which clearly show that a believer can be come an dunbeliever and depart from God

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; ...
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years....
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."(Hebrews 31,6-9,12-15 KJV)

God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works.

Repenting and believing is not a work we do to save ourself. Jesus said we must repent and believe and receive him. If we have an evil heart of unbelief we can depart, not by works. The sin hardens our heart as we walk in it and then we can have an evil heart of unbelief. This is the danger.

Read Luke 8 the parable of the sower. They believed (and were saved) for a while then fell away.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted.

no, we read verses like this in scripture

"14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah...17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."(Jeremiah 23:14,17 KJV)

and read

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."(1 Cor 6:9,10 KJV)

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I read your post very carefully and answer sometimes almost every word of your error in great detail

I guess we're done. You've not done that. And you just won't accept the very clear words of Jesus in John 10:28, which is a statement about eternal security.

And you've NOT shown otherwise.

I cannot imagine what else to say to you.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus did not say that abiding in Him was the key to eternal life. You added that in there.

Yes he did say this as he spoke through John in 1 John 2 as we read

"24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."(1 John 2:24,25 KJV)

Also in John 15 we see clearly that if a man does not abide (remain, continue and dwell) in Jesus Christ he is cast forth , like a branch broken off and if Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. Obviously we only have life and eternal life as we abide in him. If we are abiding not then we can wither up, meaning to have no life in us, no Spirit of Christ in us and so be gathered and cast into the fire. Paul said if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.

So when a branch that was once abiding in Christ is broken off they are said to be "without" Jesus and can do nothing. Only in Him is life and if a person is not IN Christ they are lost. We are baptised INTO Christ and have put on Christ. If we were not in Christ we cannot say that we are. It is like those who say they are in the light and yet walk in darkness Jesus said through John that they lie. This is similar to some who say to a person who once believed and then went off into darkness and sin and hatred etc that they are still in Christ and in the light. John said we lie if we say this and if we do not the truth.

Paul also said if a man does not have Jesus Christ in him he is a reprobate and lost (2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

This is a warning by Jesus as we read

"2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:..."(John 15:2 KJV)

Notice that the branches were once IN Him then taken away (from him and salvation in him). This also shows that fruit bearing is associated to being alive in Christ. No fruit bearing means you are not in Christ. A tree is known by it's fruit. A good tree CANNOT produce corrupt fruit and a corrupt tree CANNOT produce corrupt fruit. These are Jesus teachings.


"4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."(John 15:4 KJV)

Here we see that Jesus tells them to abide (remain, continue and dwell) in him.And that if they do not they cannot bear fruit of the spirit and show forth the faith they have (as Jesus said through James).


5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."( John 15:5 KJV)

Notice that unless we abide in him we can do nothing. Jesus says key words here "without me" ye can do nothing. The words "without me" show a dangerous state for any person to be in. Without Jesus in us and we in him we do not have eternal life or salvation or anything. If we said "that man is "without Christ" could you say he is in Christ and Christ in him still and he is still in eternal life ( which is Jesus Christ)?. No. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Here we see that a person can abide in Christ then abide not (or remain not or continue not) in Him and be cast forth into the fire and burned. Jesus is still referring to branches as his people who either abide in him as the vine or not. So when he says men gather them, this may refer spiritually to angels gathering men and casting them into the fire as we see in scripture,

"41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."Matthew 13:41,42 KJV)

we see a similar fiery warning here as well written to believers who are warned,

"23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; ...
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"(Hebrews 10:23-29 KJV)


"7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."(John 15:7 KJV)

Notice the conditional "IF" there.

"10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."(John 15:10 KJV)

again a conditional "IF".

"14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."(John 15:14 KJV)

again a conditional "IF" in order to be his friends.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This title alone troubles me. The gospel is not "eternal security"

Actually, it is. This is what Jesus said:
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

"whoever believes in Him shall not perish". Eternal security.

Want more?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jesus spoke here of 3 results:
1. "whoever believes HAS, meaning POSSESSES, eternal life
2. "will not be judged" this is the same as 3:16 and shall not perish.
3. "has crossed over from death (spiritual) to life (spiritual or eternal).

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life (the CAUSE of having eternal life), and they shall never perish (the EFFECT of having eternal life); no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We've been over this enough that there is no excuse for not understanding clearly what Jesus said here.

the gospel is this

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"(1 Cor 15;1-4 KJV)

Notice that they are saved "if they keep the gospel in memory. If they do not do this they have believed in vain, or their faith is vain and empty, for no reason.

The single Greek word for "keep in memory" is to hold fast, or possess. Once the gospel is believed, it is possessed. And all that goes with believing (forgiveness, justification, regeneration) is possessed.

Now, to believe "in vain" means without cause or reason, as you've noted. This means one has to have a reason for their belief in Christ, and it ain't believing for a promotion at work, a larger bank account, bigger house, etc. You get the idea.

What the verse doesn't say or mean is that salvation can be lost. It doesn't even suggest that.

There is condition of continuing in the faith and abiding in Christ overcoming by his power in us to the end.

This isn't found in any verse you've cited or quoted. So, where is it?

read Hebrews 3 which clearly show that a believer can be come an dunbeliever and depart from God

A believer can become an dunbeliever? Sure. Jesus noted those who believe for a while, and Paul noted that in later times, some will fall away from the faith.

But your assumption that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved is not found in Scripture. If that were true, then Jesus wasn't being honest in Johbn 10:28.

 

[Doug Melven]

Also in John 15 we see clearly that if a man does not abide (remain, continue and dwell) in Jesus Christ he is cast forth , like a branch broken off and if Jesus is the vine and we are the branches

So let's just toss John 6:37 out of the God's Word.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I guess we're done. You've not done that. And you just won't accept the very clear words of Jesus in John 10:28, which is a statement about eternal security.

And you've NOT shown otherwise.

I cannot imagine what else to say to you.

I see this as your doctrine infolding on itself. There has been way to many verses that expose the error of OSAS and it is difficult for you to explain them all away. So far you have not proven even one verse I give against OSAS is not accurate.

You still need to answer your words you added to the text about some "acting" like children of God or "acting" like children of the devil, but you saying that they were not in fact children of the devil contrary to Johns words in 1 John 3:6-10

And I may have missed some of your post I am busy responding to many.

You also do not understand many clear verses I have shown, like Luke 8 is very clear but you seem to miss it. Or John 15, 1 John 2,3 etc. Galatians 1,3,4,5 Or Judas in Matthew 10 belonged to Jesus sent forth as a sheep to the lost sheep and had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed. There is no way you can escape the verse which shows the BEGINNING of Judas ministry. You simply twist things and try to take a later event, when Judas may have already fallen by transgression or it may refer to the future event when he SHOULD betray Jesus as if that means he was always a devil. This is not how you interpret scripture. Remember we read that Judas by transgression "FELL". This fall happened sometime in his life after he was sent out by Jesus as a sheep. If he was always fallen the words that he by "transgression fell" would not make sense.

Even the Devil Satan Lucifer was not always fallen. We can show verses when he was perfect in all his ways and a covering cherub and glorious angelic being. Then iniquity was found in him and he abode not in the truth and is now headed for the lake of fire that was prepared for him and the other fallen angels that sinned after they sinned.

So, if you simply went to a later verse and showed that the devil is a liar. This does not prove that he was always a liar. If you say well, it says here is he a liar. that must mean he was always a liar. That would not be true. There was a time when he was perfect in all his ways, without iniquity and abiding in the light of Christ truth. As I showed you by scripture clearly. This also shows that an angelic heavenly being can be in eternal life and then fall and go to the lake of fire. Judas also was a sheep sent to the lost sheep at one time and so he had eternal life. Jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep. Judas was clearly a sheep at one time. Yes Jesus knew that in the future, in the garbed he would betray Jesus and have Satan enter into him ( as he did at the supper). But that does not mean for a second that he was not a sheep and saved at one point in time. That is your false assumption.Jesus speaks prophetically at times as well in scripture about things that have not happened yet.



But how do you interpret 1 John 3:6

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I guess we're done. You've not done that. And you just won't accept the very clear words of Jesus in John 10:28, which is a statement about eternal security.

And you've NOT shown otherwise.

I cannot imagine what else to say to you."

I see this as your doctrine infolding on itself.

You're just "seeing" things.

There has been way to many verses that expose the error of OSAS and it is difficult for you to explain them all away.

I've explained all of them.

What you've failed to do is address John 10:28 and explain how Jesus WASN'T teaching eternal security. Which will be impossible to do.

So far you have not proven even one verse I give against OSAS is not accurate.

Well, I can't make you read what I post.

You still need to answer your words you added to the text about some "acting" like children of God or "acting" like children of the devil, but you saying that they were not in fact children of the devil contrary to Johns words in 1 John 3:6-10

Why not just realize what Jesus said in John 10:28. Everyone He gives eternal life shall never perish.

And I may have missed some of your post I am busy responding to many.

From what you've posted here, it's rather obvious that you've missed much of my posts.

You also do not understand many clear verses I have shown, like Luke 8 is very clear but you seem to miss it.

I've addressed your comments on Luke 8:13 and pointed out your assumptions.

Or John 15, 1 John 2,3 etc. Galatians 1,3,4,5 Or Judas in Matthew 10 belonged to Jesus sent forth as a sheep to the lost sheep and had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed. There is no way you can escape the verse which shows the BEGINNING of Judas ministry. You simply twist things and try to take a later event, when Judas may have already fallen by transgression or it may refer to the future event when he SHOULD betray Jesus as if that means he was always a devil. This is not how you interpret scripture. Remember we read that Judas by transgression "FELL". This fall happened sometime in his life after he was sent out by Jesus as a sheep. If he was always fallen the words that he by "transgression fell" would not make sense.

Been through all of the verses and explained them. None of them either SAY or MEAN that salvation can be lost.

Even the Devil Satan Lucifer was not always fallen.

This is irrelevant. He wasn't saved and then lost. Neither does the Bible say that anyone lost their salvation.

We can show verses when he was perfect in all his ways and a covering cherub and glorious angelic being.

That would be Ezek 28:15.

Then iniquity was found in him (Ezek 28:15) and he abode not in the truth and is now headed for the lake of fire that was prepared for him and the other fallen angels that sinned after they sinned.

So? No connection with conditional security.

But how do you interpret 1 John 3:6

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

I've already explained it, either on this thread or the other thread we both are on. Did it today.

 

[Doug Melven]

But how do you interpret 1 John 3:6

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

How do you interpret 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[LoveofTruth]

A believer can become an dunbeliever? Sure. Jesus noted those who believe for a while, and Paul noted that in later times, some will fall away from the faith.

But your assumption that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved is not found in Scripture. If that were true, then Jesus wasn't being honest in John 10:28.

No that is your straw man argument. I never said for a second or even implied that Jesus was lying in John 10:28 I agree with John 10:28.But I do not do as you do and rip it out of the book of John and when ever another statement of Jesus clarifies what he is saying and when he adds conditions you simply ignore them and say Jesus didn't say that in John 10:28.

This is your assumption.

I explained John 10 with other statements of Jesus and gave a larger picture of the condition to have eternal life and to abide in eternal life. But verses like 1 John 2:24,25 seem to allude you and you dont see them.

If a person is a believer they are saved as Jesus said in Luke 8. If they do not believe they are a unbeliever and condemned as Jesus said in John 3. We also see a warning in hebrews 3;12 of a believer being warned not to have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. I marvel at how you still say those with an evil heart of unbelief are saved? even though they are not in belief anymore and have departed from the living God and the context says we have to hold our confidence unto the end.

Then in Chapter 4:1 of Hebrews still in context to chapter 3 we read

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."(Hebrews 4:1,9-11 KJV)

Christ is our rest only as we abide in him do we have rest. that rest in him is salvation and only accessed by belief, faith. if we believe not we are not in that rest and can come short of it. As we read in Hebrews 3:12 believers are warned of having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. This unbelief is not simply fellowship or fruit bearing. It is to be away from God. if God is not in believers they are not saved as many scriptures can show.

Yet somehow you still say they are saved and did not lose salvation.

if a man is not in the rest of Christ having once rested in him through belief and then departs through an evil heart of unbelief, why do you say they are still in Christ and his rest and saved.

To be in unbelief is very dangerous as scripture shows

"Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

But according to you from what you have said to escape the clear understanding of these type of verses you imply that they are still saved if they have an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God .

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said

You still need to answer your words you added to the text about some "acting" like children of God or "acting" like children of the devil, but you saying that they were not in fact children of the devil contrary to Johns words in 1 John 3:6-10
then you simply say,
and avoid and run from answering and explaining your added words to the text. You need to be held accountable for this. This is not right for you to make such statements and then run from answering it and dodge it all the time.

This discussion and added word to the text like "acting" will find you out and follow you...

You must realize that your words are not there and not in the text and the reason i used those verses exposes the OSAS group and clearly shows the error.

Why not just realize what Jesus said in John 10:28. Everyone He gives eternal life shall never perish.

This is irrelevant. He wasn't saved and then lost. Neither does the Bible say that anyone lost their salvation.

No it is not angels that sinned are used as a warning for believers. So is the devil used as the father of sinners. Also these beings were in a eternal state in light and truth and in Christ and then fell. This clealry shatters the OSAS doctrine and shows that a eternal being can fall and go to the lake of fire

I could also speak of infants at 1 day old being saved ALL of them by the grace of Christ and then when sin revievs they dead spiritually and need to be born again and even though they were once saved and had the life and Light of Christ many will still end up in the lake of fire. Showing that a person can be saved and then lost. Unless you want to say that all infants who die at 1 day old will go to the lake of fire which i don't think to many would say. So truly ALL we like sheep have gone astray. All infants also are sheep until they hate the light then they are condemned because their deeds are evil. They are not condemned until they hate the light. Sin is not imputed where there is no law and where no law is there is no transgression and Paul said he was alive once without the law, but the commandment came sin revived and he died. Jesus also spoke of blessings to the infants and spoke of men becoming as a child to enter the kingdom and how their angels do always behold the face of the father etc.

Infant salvation also shatters Calvinism and many pints of it and the OSAS crowd as well.

Many have not seriously examined how a one day old infant is saved.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So let's just toss John 6:37 out of the God's Word.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

He doesn't cast out those that come to him through faith and abide in him and continue to believe. But if they abide not they are cast out as we see in John 15 and other places and with the whole discussion of Judas.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How do you interpret 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You first how do you interpret 1 John 3:6

 

[LoveofTruth]

How do you interpret 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

before you understand 1 John 3:9 you need to understand 1 John 3:6 KJV