Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[BABerean2]

I`m not saying they were saved by works, they were saved by FAITH AND WORKS!

The Apostle Paul spoke out against being saved by Faith plus anything on our part.

Those who are already saved will do good works as the fruit of our faith.
However, nobody has ever been saved in any way by work they have done.

Paul's stern warning against the idea is found in Galatians 1:6-9.

You have also failed to deal with the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
These two verses destroy your claim that the age of "Grace" comes to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

.

 

[Postvieww]

Now, if you want to get into the bible version issue here, you can watch this video addressing the issue. I hope it enlightens you:

I have always used the KJV as my primary Bible but I stop short of calling myself King James only. I believe it is the best overall version available.

And regarding the four beasts singing the song, I don`t believe they are redeemed in the blood of the lamb, they`ve always been in heaven, they don`t need redemption. So I don`t believe they needed salvation. If you think they were also redeemed in the blood of the lamb, this is wrong. It doesn`t say they were redeemed, it says they were signing a song with the elders. If they sing a song along with the redeemed saints, does it automatically mean they were in the same group? No. They were just participating with them. Maybe they just believed it to be true for the saints and they wanted to praise god for it and participate in the choir or something. We can`t exactly know the 4 beasts` motive, but for sure we can say that the bible does`t say they sang a song because they also were redeemed in the blood of the lamb. So that doesn`t discredit my point.

KJV Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And THEY sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall reign on the earth.

The grammer of this passage indicates they all sang the new song they all had harps and golden vials they all said “redeemed us” they all said “made us unto our God kings and priests” and they all said “we shall reign on the earth”.


ASV Revelation 5: 8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Does not say “redeemed us” as does KJV.

10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

Says madest THEM not US as the does the KJV. Says “they reign” not “we shall reign as does the KJV.


The ASV is just one of many that takes this view. IMHO it makes more sense. It tells us the 4 beasts and 24 Elders are singing about someone else and not themselves as does the KJV.

I am not a KJV basher I use it daily, but I did have to face up to this fact. I can’t just ignore the grammar and say oh well that’s not what it means when that is what it says.

As far as the translators, I believe being led by the Spirit is far different than being inspired by the Spirit as the original writers of the text were. We as believers all believe we are led by the Holy Spirit and yet we come to different conclusions on doctrine. When one locks themselves into any version as “THE” version ,minor inconsistencies must be overlooked or explained away as in this case.

You may disagree with my conclusion here but the grammatical reading of the text is inescapable IMHO.

I am fully aware of some the omissions in some versions such as the NIV. I do believe any thorough study of scripture must include at the very least a Strong’s Concordance. That is just my opinion you may disagree.

I agree with you the four beasts have always been in heaven and have no need of redemption that is my point. I just don’t agree with your way around this grammatical problem.

 

[Postvieww]

About revelation 9:6, you seem to believe that the slain souls were caught up saints?

Typo Revelation 6:9. No I do not believe they were caught up saints. I believe they were just” the souls of them that were slain” as the text plainly says. My point is that neither those in Rev 6:9 or 7:9 & 14 were caught up they are all just as the souls of them that sleep in Jesus 1 Thessalonians 4:14 and as the souls of my saved family members that have gone on to be with the Lord. None of them have been resurrected or received their new eternal bodies of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 as of the timing of this passage .

That doesn`t make sense, because it says they were SLAIN, not CAUGHT UP. They reason why they are in heaven when Jesus opens the fifth seal is because they became dead for being slain, so they gave up the ghost. They are not supposed to be all slain when the rapture occurs. And the verses right after that, it mentions they had fellowservants and brethren remaining on the earth. How can they be called fellowservants and brethren if they were not `raptured` with the slain souls already in heaven? Aren`t brethren in Christ supposed to be saved as well? Did they miss something there? Please explain this.

The way I understand this passage is simple. Those souls that were already in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal because they had been slain were just told to rest a little season until the rest of their brethren that were still alive on the earth were killed as they were and those souls would be in heaven with them as well. Neither group was raptured or caught up both groups got there the same way through death not resurrection. Hope that clears up what I am saying.

 

[Cynthia1234]

The Apostle Paul spoke out against being saved by Faith plus anything on our part.
.

True.

Those who are already saved will do good works as the fruit of our faith.
However, nobody has ever been saved in any way by work they have done.
.

True. Even the old testament saints couldn`t go to heaven. They went to Abraham`s bosom.

Paul's stern warning against the idea is found in Galatians 1:6-9.
.

True.

You have also failed to deal with the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
These two verses destroy your claim that the age of "Grace" comes to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.
.

The new covenant has not come into effect yet. Here is the mention of the new covenant:
Jeremiah 31:31-33 King James Version (KJV)
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now, my questions to you:
-ARE YOU A JEW FROM THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH?
-Do all your neighbors know about the Lord?
-Are you not teaching your neighbors and your brethren about the Lord? Because if we are under the new covenant right now, you are not supposed to teach them, because they are supposed to know the Lord already...

Hebrews 10:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Hebrews 8 talks about it as well.

As you can see, the new covenant is for the house of ISRAEL, not for gentiles today. And the law will be written into their hearts. The law is not written into our hearts today. We are still after the disire of the flesh, so we still sin all the time. The new covenant has not come yet. This is the old covenant made with Abraham and his seeds. More details of it is found in Genesis 12-17...

Genesis 17:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Only the JEWS were circumcised. Right now, we are under a new testament:

Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So what is the first testament? I couldn`t find a verse in the OT with the word testament in them, but I found this verse which gives us a key to what the first testament was about:

2 Corinthians 3:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

So the letter was the written law. They had to follow the law(ten commandments plus Mosaic law, but not sure if it includes the latter, probably not...), but now we have the spirit for the promise of eternal inheritance. We are not under the law anymore. The fullness of the new covenant will be when the millennial kingdom is established and it has not started yet. Some people argue it could start with the 144 000 sealed JEWS in the 7-year tribulation period(JACOB`S TROUBLE slash ISRAEL) Right now, we are all saved by faith, not of works. The book of Hebrews was written to the first century HEBREWS who received the gospel from Jesus Christ when he was on earth. Paul received his gospel by Revelation of Jesus Christ(After his resurrection). So the gospel in the book of Hebrews is not for us today. The covenant is for JEWS. The testament is for the whole world. I hope it clarifies things.

 

[seventysevens]

You have also failed to deal with the fact that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
These two verses destroy your claim that the age of "Grace" comes to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

.

You continue to fail to understand what the scripture actually say :

kjv
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Hebrews 8:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
It is NOT obsolete yet!
It is in the process of Becoming Ready to be obsolete - AFTER all is fulfilled.

Which is when Jesus Has Returned

 

[Cynthia1234]

You continue to fail to understand what the scripture actually say :

kjv
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Hebrews 8:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
It is NOT obsolete yet!
It is in the process of Becoming Ready to be obsolete - AFTER all is fulfilled.

Which is when Jesus Has Returned

Yes, and that`s for the JEWS, not GENTILES, it might include some gentiles, too, but not now. So yes, the new covenant will come at the millennial kingdom, when Jesus returns, exactly!

 

[Postvieww]

Hebrews 8:6 But NOW hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he IS the mediator of a better covenant, which WAS established upon better promises.

 

[BABerean2]

As you can see, the new covenant is for the house of ISRAEL, not for gentiles today. And the law will be written into their hearts. The law is not written into our hearts today. We are still after the disire of the flesh, so we still sin all the time. The new covenant has not come yet.

The only way you can make the above work is by cutting Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 7:12, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 out of your Bible.

Those are New Covenant verses written in the present tense, during the first century.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


In the two passages below we find the New Covenant specifically applied to the Church.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
(It is the ministry of the Spirit that writes the law of God on your heart. Have you been "born again" of the Spirit, as described in John 3? If there has been no change in the sin in your life, you need to re-examine how the Spirit of God is working in your heart.)

...............................................................

At the Last Supper Christ revealed that He would fulfill the New Covenant, with His blood.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

 

[Postvieww]

Seventysevens. I would be curious as to what you found funny about BABarean’s post?

 

[Cynthia1234]

The only way you can make the above work is by cutting Hebrews 8:6, and Hebrews 7:12, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 out of your Bible.

Those are New Covenant verses written in the present tense, during the first century.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


In the two passages below we find the New Covenant specifically applied to the Church.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
(It is the ministry of the Spirit that writes the law of God on your heart. Have you been "born again" of the Spirit, as described in John 3? If there has been no change in the sin in your life, you need to re-examine how the Spirit of God is working in your heart.)

...............................................................

At the Last Supper Christ revealed that He would fulfill the New Covenant, with His blood.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

Actually we have to come down to the bible version issue her. Because see, the KJV says testament instead of covenant in many verses, such as Mat_26:28, Mar_14:24, Luk_22:20, 1Co_11:25, 2Co_3:6, Heb_ 9:15.
Here is what the KJV says:
Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Luke 22:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1 Corinthians 11:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2 Corinthians 3:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

See that?

Different bibles say different things. All the new versions are corrupted. They are based on the Minority texts, which all contradict each other. The KJV is based on the Majority texts, which accounts for about 95 of all the manuscripts, which all agree with each other. Please check out this video explaining the issue. You have got to have the word of God in your hands, not a corrupted bible which Satan is using to deceive people. It might be new to you, and I hope it helps. Im not trying to win anything. But after watching this video, if you are still not convinced you have got the wrong bible, I wish not to debate anymore, sorry. Please watch first, it is key to understanding the bible doctrines correctly.

 

[BABerean2]

Actually we have to come down to the bible version issue her. Because see, the KJV says testament instead of covenant in many verses, such as Mat_26:28, Mar_14:24, Luk_22:20, 1Co_11:25, 2Co_3:6, Heb_ 9:15.
Here is what the KJV says:
Matthew 26:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Luke 22:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1 Corinthians 11:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2 Corinthians 3:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

See that?

Different bibles say different things. All the new versions are corrupted. They are based on the Minority texts, which all contradict each other. The KJV is based on the Majority texts, which accounts for about 95 of all the manuscripts, which all agree with each other. Please check out this video explaining the issue. You have got to have the word of God in your hands, not a corrupted bible which Satan is using to deceive people. It might be new to you, and I hope it helps. Im not trying to win anything. But after watching this video, if you are still not convinced you have got the wrong bible, I wish not to debate anymore, sorry. Please watch first, it is key to understanding the bible doctrines correctly.

Your problem is that the KJV translators translated the Greek word "diatheke" as "covenant" in some places and as "testament" in other places.
It is the same Greek word.

It also does not solve your problem in Hebrews 12:22-24, where the KJV translates the word as "covenant" and specifically applies the New Covenant to the Church.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(KJV)


As for the Bible version debate, my favorites are the 1599 Geneva Bible, and the KJV Bible, and in a few cases the NKJV.
Why?
Because they are based on the Textus Receptus Greek texts, instead of the Sinai text, which was used for most modern translations.

The Textus Receptus was quoted by Early Church Father Cyprian, about 250 AD.
Therefore, it is the most ancient text.

It is the most ancient Greek text which is the Word of God.
Everything else is a translation.

.........................................................


G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē

dee-ath-ay'-kay

From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
Total KJV occurrences: 33

.

 

[Cynthia1234]

Your problem is that the KJV translators translated the Greek word "diatheke" as "covenant" in some places and as "testament" in other places.
It is the same Greek word.

It also does not solve your problem in Hebrews 12:22-24, where the KJV translates the word as "covenant" and specifically applies the New Covenant to the Church.


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(KJV)


As for the Bible version debate, my favorites are the 1599 Geneva Bible, and the KJV Bible, and in a few cases the NKJV.
Why?
Because they are based on the Textus Receptus Greek texts, instead of the Sinai text, which was used for most modern translations.

The Textus Receptus was quoted by Early Church Father Cyprian, about 250 AD.
Therefore, it is the most ancient text.

It is the most ancient Greek text which is the Word of God.
Everything else is a translation.

.........................................................


G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē

dee-ath-ay'-kay

From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
Total KJV occurrences: 33

.

 

[Major1]

I never said Rev 7 group was raptured up though. And yes I agree with you that that group came out of the tribulation. Maybe you missed out on some of my comments. So, you’re totally in line with my viewpoint!

My apologies. I went back and read your post again and I see what you were saying.

It just looked like you were pointing out that the ones in Rev. 7 & 14 were raptured and I see on closer reading that you did not say that.

 

[Major1]

I see a few problems with your reading of this text. If you tie in verse 8 with verse 9 you will find it is the 4 beasts as well as the 24 elders singing the new song. Now the question is whatever your belief is on the 4 beasts are you willing to claim they are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb as well as the elders? That is what the KJV clearly states . Read the same passage in the ASV as well as many other translations and you will not have that problem. I know of no one who claims the 4 beasts are redeemed by His blood and are made to be kings and priests. Nothing in the passage you site says anything about being caught up to heaven.




Nothing in the above passage says these saints are resurrected caught up saints. I believe these saints are the last installment of the group mentioned in Revelation 6:9, “the SOULS of them that were slain”. Souls not resurrected caught up saints.




I disagree, there are not two ways of salvation. Works will not wash a robe. When you claim they washed their own robes I believe you are taking great liberty with interpretation of the text.




For the reasons listed above I disagree you have shown a pre-trib rapture of the saints in Revelation.

Can you provide a second corroborating passage to back your claim of works plus faith?

Was 1 John written to tribulation saints only? I think not.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

That is not correct my brother IMO.

The 24 Elders and the 4 beasts are separated not inclusive. The 24 are introduced in Rev. 4:4 and the 4 beasts then are introduced in verse 6.

The 24 elders IMO then must be represenitive of the peoples of God which is the Raptured church that is now in heaven at this point in the Rev.

Now then.....WHY is the church in heaven??????

It is removed by Christ and Christ was symbolized by the evangelists as they expressed their personal view of Christ as each one has a different view and each one was of a Living being...........
1. Matthew = LION.
2. Mark = OX.
3. Luke = MAN.
4. John = EAGLE.

 

[BABerean2]

Bryan Denlinger has most certainly cut Hebrews 8:6 out of his Bible.

Like you, he attempts to build his case upon a distinction between the English word "testament" and the English word "covenant", while ignoring the fact that the original Greek word is "diatheke".
It is a distinction that does not exist in the Greek.

He then claims that it may be Moses who reveals the New Covenant to the Jewish people during the tribulation period, even though Hebrews 8:1-6 clearly reveals that Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant. How can you believe anything the man says?

Apparently, he has also cut Hebrews 7:12, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24 out of his Bible.


Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Denlinger's doctrine is built upon ignorance.
How can either of you ignore the verse above from the KJV?


Denlinger attempts to ignore the fact that the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 is repeated within Hebrews 8:6-13, and is bracketed by verses written in the present tense during the first century.

At time 39:25 into the video Denlinger says that anyone who believes the New Covenant has already come in is "lost".
Based on John 5:27-30, Jesus Christ is the judge.
Someone needs to tell Mr. Denlinger that the job is already taken.

At one time my wife and I were in a Wednesday night Bible study.
Someone in the group wanted a study guide for the Book of Hebrews.
We all agreed to get the one produced by Dr. David Jeremiah.
He is a member of your team.
The study guide produced by Dr. Jeremiah applies the New Covenant directly to the Church.
Remember, he is a member of your team.

https://www.amazon.com/Hebrews-Expl...ds=book+of+hebrews+study+guide+David+Jeremiah

Does Mr. Denlinger believe Dr. David Jeremiah is also "lost"?

Your doctrine only works by claiming that the Church is a "Gentile Church".
On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in the passage below.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The fact is that when the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites.
Paul said he was an Israelite, even after his conversion, in Romans 11:1.

The Gentiles were not grafted in until several years later.

When are you going to quit ignoring Hebrews 12:22-24?
While you are at it, how are you going to deal with Acts 2:36?

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[Postvieww]

That is not correct my brother IMO.

Great you admit it is your opinion.

The 24 Elders and the 4 beasts are separated not inclusive.

They are separately identified groups but they are shown together in Revelation 5:8. They all fell down before the Lamb, they all had harps, they all had golden vials and they all sang a new song. This is what the text says. How do you contextually separate them in verses 8-9?

The 24 are introduced in Rev. 4:4 and the 4 beasts then are introduced in verse 6.

Irrelevant since they are shown together as described above.

The 24 elders IMO then must be represenitive of the peoples of God which is the Raptured church that is now in heaven at this point in the Rev.

Again, your opinion. We have a a very different opinion on the timeline of Revelation and what happens when. What is it about Revelation 5 that tells you this is after the resurrection of the church? I see nothing in the text to indicate that is a fact.

Now then.....WHY is the church in heaven??????

It is not!

It is removed by Christ and Christ was symbolized by the evangelists as they expressed their personal view of Christ as each one has a different view and each one was of a Living being...........
1. Matthew = LION.
2. Mark = OX.
3. Luke = MAN.
4. John = EAGLE.

I respect your views on this as your views but you don’t even line up with others who believe as you on the main point of a pre-trib rapture. The lion, ox, man, eagle explanation may look good on paper to you but there are a lot of reasons why there can be doubt. One of which is these creatures look a lot like the same creatures in Ezekiel 1. I would like to see how you tie that to Matthew ,Mark, Luke and John. These are heavenly creatures not representative of the church or any part of the church. I realize you need it to be so to support your theory but it does not fit.

 

[seventysevens]

They are separately identified groups but they are shown together in Revelation 5:8. They all fell down before the Lamb, they all had harps, they all had golden vials and they all sang a new song. This is what the text says. How do you contextually separate them in verses 8-9?

This is a curious thing - you focus on what is similar and disregard what is dissimilar
You choose not to recognize the thrones the 24 elders have and focus on harps ?

Simple logic tells us that in the heavenly realm at throne of Almighty God -Everything that has life praise the Lord !
Who would stand at the Throne of Almighty God and not sing praises to the Lord ?

If you were there at the Throne of Almighty God and seen all these praising and worshiping
Almighty God , would you not sing and worship ?
If You would why would you think that means they cannot be redeemed ?

 

[seventysevens]

Your doctrine only works by claiming that the Church is a "Gentile Church".

Your doctrine removes about 30% of all end times events to make your doctrine work
You refuse to accept the fact that Israel/Jews Worshiped YHWH I AM for many generations
They were under the law given to them through Moses and Prophets and were required to follow the laws
the Pharisees added many more ridiculous laws and the number of laws are approx 600 that Israel followed .

Gentiles have not been under the laws of the Israelite/Jews
so they did not and have not followed those laws put upon ISRAEL .
Originally the entire church was Israel Jews but when Gentiles were grafted into the church they are Gentile Christians Not Israeli Christians
Gentile Christians were not under the Laws of Israel even though they were now part of the Christian church
Meanwhile Jewish Christians were still abiding the law -but when Jesus came He fulfilled much of the Law of Israel but not all of it and so Jesus said:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

But that applies to Jews/Israel because they are Israel.
Gentiles are not Israel - so it does not apply to Gentiles
The New Testament aka New Covenant is a covenant of and under Grace but it did not do away with the old covenant as :

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

It is NOT obsolete yet!
It is in the process of Becoming Ready to be obsolete - AFTER all is fulfilled.

But still it applies only to Jews/Israel and not Gentiles because Gentiles were not required to follow Jewish Law

When Jesus returns He will write the New Covenant on their hearts because the Jews Still reject Jesus as Messiah

Because you insist and demand that ALL Christians are Israel you have become blinded to this very simple truth that God is still dealing with Israel Jews in a manner that the Gentile Christians are not part of

End time prophecies of Israel being reborn as a nation , bringing them back to their promised land and many other prophecies and just a prelude to events that culminate in All Israel both the heritage of OT Israel who serve YWWH and reject Jesus with Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians together as a family that at that time all Christians will be Israel but that has yet to happen after All prophecies of the Church have been fulfilled





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[jgr]

It is in the process of Becoming Ready to be obsolete - AFTER all is fulfilled.

Acts 13
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

What part of all are you having a problem with?

 

[Marilyn C]

Sorry, my bad. I read too fast. I personally don`t really like to look into Greek too much. I believe the people who translated the new testament from Greek into English were lead with the Holy spirit in them, so they still translated the Bible truthfully and accurately. So I believe I don`t need to go to the Greek to read the true word of God. And thinking more about it, `over` and `on` are pretty similar to me when you add earth. `On the earth`, `over the earth`... `over the earth` would not necessarily mean in heaven, right? Otherwise they would have said heaven? Don`t you think? I`m sure you have heard the expression`all over the earth`? What does it mean to you?

Hi Cynthia,

There are many errors in different translations as translators were influenced by their beliefs. probably a good topic for another thread.

Now as to reigning `over, or on` the earth we need to look at other scriptures pertaining to that topic. That would also be another good topic for another thread.

regards, Marilyn.