Are Protestants dead?

[Afra]

Sure. We should have just let you answer the OP all by yourself. It would have saved all of us lots of time and effort.
You did do that by summing it up for us: "God is the judge of that!"

Brothers and sisters, from now on, we should all learn from Afra's succinct answer to any controversaries and doctrinal differences we may have ... before we waste too much time.
"GOD IS THE JUDGE OF THAT!"
THANK YOU BROTHER ... I GUESS WE ARE DONE HERE. AMEN.

There is no need for such sarcasm. Good afternoon.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What does God prefer?
That's the problem isn't it. Discerning scripture, whether He meant His words to be taken literally or symbolically. I am a literalist, especially when it comes to eschatology, which Catholics seem to take symbolically.
But in this case, bread and wine are symbols that represent His sacrifice and are shared to commune with one another in remembrance.
But back to eschatology for example, it's perplexing how some are Preterists and others Futurists when we are reading the same scriptures. Educated scholars, priests, PhD's, discern one meaning and others with equal amounts of scholarship view it differently. Personally, I don't care what Augustine said, Calvin or even Luther for that matter. Scripture states "we do not need a teacher", for we have the Holy Spirit.
But still there is division. It is evident and argued that the Catholic is not relying on scripture alone but commentaries, church fathers, traditions, etc. Even Martin Luther accepted Purgatory and discussed it in his 95 Theses.
Centuries ago the RCC sold indulgences. They manipulated scripture for profits.
Did God prefer that?
Does God prefer praying to the saints and Mary when scripture supports no such thing?
Does God prefer His flock to bow down and pray under statues of Mary, the Saints or of Jesus when scripture tells us not to erect any statues of heavenly or earthly beings and bow down and worship them.
Jesus gave us a template of how we are to pray: to "Our Father Who art in Heaven ..."
We do not need to go to anyone else. We have direct access to Him, to Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells in us to guide, counsel and teach us all truth.
Does God prefer us to go to a priest and confess our sins? We are told to confess our sins with one another and/or to the congregation as well. But we certainly need go directly to God to confess our sins.
And then, what does He prefer, 10 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Father's? Or does He prefer us to die to ourselves and mortify our sins, not to return to Our old ways? What purpose would repetitious prayers that don't address the core of our sins do (as if a Hail Mary straightens out our path and removes the sin)?
So I turn back at you and ask, what does God prefer with all that?

I just wanted to point out that you mentioned purgatory and the selling of indulgences. Did you know that according to the catechism the doctrine of purgatory was formulated at the council of Florence in 1439AD. While the RC was selling indulgences?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why would you segway into Jews not believing in Christ? I was talking about it being hard to believe that bread and wine actually becomes the body and blood if Christ. I alluded to mans imperfect understanding of scriptures as not to be held against him and that our faith is sufficient.
Btw, according Romans 11, Jews were blinded for our sake and have been to this day. If God blinds you, there is no way you can see until He lifts the veil if blindness. He will do that when Christ returns and a remnant 1/3 of the Jews will be saved. Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. They will mourn. Can you imagine the realization of their rejection for almost 2000 years and then, oops He really is the Messiah we've been waiting for. How guilty and angry and sorrowful you would feel? To think your religion was essentially against God since Christ appeared and you just followed along with the feasts, rituals, teaching in the Synagogues. How the Rabbis will respond

Actually Paul wrote that around 60AD brother Ronald so it is not for certain that God has blinded the Jews to this day. I’ve met several messianic Jews.

 

[GingerBeer]

His Spirit came down and became flesh.

That is not right. The Holy Spirit did not become flash. It was the Word who became flesh, the Word is the Son of God. The Word is God the Son. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us; and we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father: fullness of truth and loving-kindness.
15 John bore witness to him openly, saying, “This is the one who comes after me, but he is already ahead of me, for he was before me.” 16 From his fullness we have all received, favour upon favour. 17 For God had given us the law through Moses, but Truth and Loving-kindness came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God-the-only-Son made him known: the one, who is in and with the Father.

The Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and Mary gave birth to the Son of God. Luke 1:26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God, to a town of Galilee called Nazareth. He was sent 27 to a virgin, who was betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the family of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” 29 Mary was troubled at these words, wondering what this greeting could mean. 30 But the angel said, “Do not fear, Mary, for God has looked kindly on you. 31 You shall conceive and bear a son; and you shall call him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and shall rightly be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the kingdom of David, his ancestor; he will rule over the people of Jacob forever; 33 and his reign shall have no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore, the holy child to be born of you shall be called Son of God. 36 Even your relative, Elizabeth, is expecting a son in her old age, although she was unable to have a child; and she is now in her sixth month. 37 With God nothing is impossible.” 38 Then Mary said, “I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me as you have said.” And the angel left her.

 

[Afra]

I just wanted to point out that you mentioned purgatory and the selling of indulgences. Did you know that according to the catechism the doctrine of purgatory was formulated at the council of Florence in 1439AD. While the RC was selling indulgences?

The doctrine goes back much further than that. This may be of some use to you:

Purgatory - Wikipedia

 

[Ronald]

Actually Paul wrote that around 60AD brother Ronald so it is not for certain that God has blinded the Jews to this day. I’ve met several messianic Jews.

Yes he did write it back then, a prophetic scripture that informs us actually when their veil of blindness will be removed - when the Lord returns. You know, the Second Coming? But I suppose you would interpret that passage differently.

 

[ripple the car]

I just wanted to point out that you mentioned purgatory and the selling of indulgences. Did you know that according to the catechism the doctrine of purgatory was formulated at the council of Florence in 1439AD. While the RC was selling indulgences?

Uuuuuuuh, no. Formalized, possibly, but not formulated.

Please, please look into Patristics, Catholic sources, and the Early and Medieval Church Fathers. Please.

 

[W2L]

Purgatory makes no sense to me. It seems to contradict scripture. Who needs to be purified in the flames of purgatory when we are already clean?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

 

[Ronald]

That is not right. The Holy Spirit did not become flash. It was the Word who became flesh, the Word is the Son of God. The Word is God the Son. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us; and we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father: fullness of truth and loving-kindness.
15 John bore witness to him openly, saying, “This is the one who comes after me, but he is already ahead of me, for he was before me.” 16 From his fullness we have all received, favour upon favour. 17 For God had given us the law through Moses, but Truth and Loving-kindness came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God-the-only-Son made him known: the one, who is in and with the Father.

The Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and Mary gave birth to the Son of God. Luke 1:26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God, to a town of Galilee called Nazareth. He was sent 27 to a virgin, who was betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the family of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” 29 Mary was troubled at these words, wondering what this greeting could mean. 30 But the angel said, “Do not fear, Mary, for God has looked kindly on you. 31 You shall conceive and bear a son; and you shall call him Jesus. 32 He will be great, and shall rightly be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the kingdom of David, his ancestor; he will rule over the people of Jacob forever; 33 and his reign shall have no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore, the holy child to be born of you shall be called Son of God. 36 Even your relative, Elizabeth, is expecting a son in her old age, although she was unable to have a child; and she is now in her sixth month. 37 With God nothing is impossible.” 38 Then Mary said, “I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me as you have said.” And the angel left her.

Yes, I know the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Let me ask you, since Jesus pre-existed with the FATHER and the Holy Spirit, Who are three, would not Jesus have a spirit or do they all share One Spirit? Ill wait for you response, but either way, Jesus' spirit came down and emptied Himself into Mary's womb and became flesh.
To save yourself time, you may just reference the the first chapter of the book of John, I am familiar with that very significant chapter.

 

[W2L]

Yes, I know the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Let me ask you, since Jesus pre-existed with the FATHER and the Holy Spirit, Who are three, would not Jesus have a spirit or do they all share One Spirit? Ill wait for you response, but either way, Jesus' spirit came down and emptied Himself into Mary's womb and became flesh.

2 corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

 

[Ronald]

2 corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Aaahhh, don't help him. I bet you couldn't restrain yourself from answering a classmate's question who sat next to you in the third grade? Now don't help him with any more questions, most of them should have been covered in catechism long ago.

 

[hedrick]

Purgatory makes no sense to me. It seems to contradict scripture. Who needs to be purified in the flames of purgatory when we are already clean?

I don't support the doctrine of Purgatory as it existed in the 16th Cent. But see 1 Cor 3:12 for the more general idea of purification.

 

[GingerBeer]

Yes, I know the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Let me ask you, since Jesus pre-existed with the FATHER and the Holy Spirit, Who are three, would not Jesus have a spirit or do they all share One Spirit?

There is exactly one God. He is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God. Without parts, without passion. Eternal, immortal, unchanging. Jesus is God incarnate. Have you read the Athanasian Creed?

Since you say you know the things in my past two posts tell my why your posts misquoted and misuse what is in the scriptures? Misquoting what is in John chapter 6 and misusing what is in John chapter 1 and, by implication, what is in Paul's letters? 2Corinthians 3:12 Since we have such a great ambition, we are quite confident—13 unlike Moses, who covered his face with a veil. Otherwise, the Israelites would have seen his passing radiance fade. 14 They became blind, however; until this day, the same veil prevents them from understanding the Old Covenant, and they do not realise that, in Christ, it is nullified. 15 Up to this very day, whenever they read Moses, the veil remains over their understanding 16 but, for whoever turns to the Lord, the veil shall be removed. 17 The Lord is Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So, with unveiled faces, we all reflect the glory of the Lord, while we are transformed into his likeness, and experience his glory, more and more by the action of the Lord, who is Spirit.

 

[W2L]

I don't support the doctrine of Purgatory as it existed in the 16th Cent. But see 1 Cor 3:12 for the more general idea of purification.

The three scriptures i posted prove we have been purified in this life. How does your understanding of purgatory apply to those scriptures?

 

[hedrick]

Yes, I know the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Let me ask you, since Jesus pre-existed with the FATHER and the Holy Spirit, Who are three, would not Jesus have a spirit or do they all share One Spirit? Ill wait for you response, but either way, Jesus' spirit came down and emptied Himself into Mary's womb and became flesh.
To save yourself time, you may just reference the the first chapter of the book of John, I am familiar with that very significant chapter.

The question that you ask is more complex than it sounds, and in fact some of your wording suggests slightly unorthodox ideas.

Jesus was a normal human being, complete with a human spirit. He wasn't missing a human spirit, with the Holy Spirit taking its place. That was an ancient heresy.

I would say that the Trinity has one spirit, the Holy Spirit. Hence there are actually two spirits, Jesus' human spirit, which was part of his human nature, and the Holy Spirit with is one person of the Trinity.

Matthew says that Jesus was "from the Holy Spirit." The Spirit took the initiative in his birth. This does not, however, mean that Jesus was a demigod, the child of Mary and the Spirit. While some non-Christians seem to think that's what w believe, it would be a serious misunderstanding. That's not how the Incarnation worked. The eternal logos united himself to a complete human (though not an independent human being, which would be a different heresy).

 

[hedrick]

The three scriptures i posted prove we have been purified in this life. How does your understanding of purgatory apply to those scriptures?

Ask Paul. It's not likely that any NT writer would say that we are sinless in this life. I think the three passages you cite indicate some combination of future purification and "clean" in the sense of forgiven and acceptable to God.

 

[W2L]

Ask Paul. It's not likely that any NT writer would say that we are sinless in this life. I think the three passages you cite indicate some combination of future purification and "clean" in the sense of forgiven and acceptable to God.

I disagree. It says when we fellowship together we are cleansed. That doesnt mean in the future.

 

[hedrick]

I disagree. It says when we fellowship together we are cleansed. That doesnt mean in the future.

The citation of 1 John 1:7 and 1:9 is particularly questionable, since between them is 1:8: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." This passage is about forgiveness, not perfection.

 

[W2L]

The citation of 1 John 1:7 and 1:9 is particularly questionable, since between them is 1:8: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." This passage is about forgiveness, not perfection.

Its about forgiveness restoring us. IMO

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes he did write it back then, a prophetic scripture that informs us actually when their veil of blindness will be removed - when the Lord returns. You know, the Second Coming? But I suppose you would interpret that passage differently.

I am unfamiliar with that verse brother Ronald. Can you please share it?