Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

[ClementofA]

Quoting yourself and anonymous blogs is not addressing anything.

Why is that & what "blogs"? Also a link isn't a "quote".

Have you ever feared going to endless torments?

Does the fear or belief in hell make you a better person?

Do you follow Jesus for fire insurance?

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save everyone, is it because He is unable to or doesn't want to? Does His love expire like a milk carton with its expiry date?

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Sanoy]

A few isolated comments does not equate to "all sorts of new and baseless speculation." And that does not negate Jewish interpretation of specific verses.

There is a lot actually. I thought I would give you an example so we could avoid further dramatic outbursts of "Unsupported Opinion!"

You may continue on the assignment I gave you. That is, if you still wish to maintain your objection to Greek influence via the talmud.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Why is that & what "blogs"? Also a link isn't a "quote".

Have you ever feared going to endless torments?

Does the fear or belief in hell make you a better person?

Do you follow Jesus for fire insurance?

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save everyone, is it because He is unable to or doesn't want to? Does His love expire like a milk carton with its expiry date?

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If he has half a brain, he'll eat you alive for this...

 

[Der Alte]

Why is that & what "blogs"? Also a link isn't a "quote".
Have you ever feared going to endless torments?
Does the fear or belief in hell make you a better person?
Do you follow Jesus for fire insurance?

No, no and no. The only sermon on hell I ever heard I preached in '95,"Lessons from Hell University."

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save everyone, is it because He is unable to or doesn't want to? Does His love expire like a milk carton with its expiry date?

I'm not familiar with these verses.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Out-of-context. I addressed this before. Jeremiah was not speaking "thus saith the Lord." but his own and contemporary's circumstances. how the Lord had afflicted Israel because of their disobedience then delivered them.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Please show me a verse or verses where God or Jesus is speaking and say that everyone will ultimately be saved no matter what.

 

[ClementofA]

Have you ever feared going to endless torments?
Does the fear or belief in hell make you a better person?
Do you follow Jesus for fire insurance?

No, no and no. The only sermon on hell I ever heard I preached in '95,"Lessons from Hell University."

You answered "no" to the 3 questions above. You've never feared endless torments, so why should anyone else else fear endless torments or pay any attention to your remarks on the subject?

Then why do you spend so much time & effort opposing annihilation & universalism & arguing for endless torments. Why would it matter to you what anyone believes regarding these things. Shouldn't you be on other forums here preaching the gospel to the lost who you think are headed to endless tortures, instead of trying to convince Christians about your interpretation of what will occur in the afterlife?

 

[ClementofA]

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save everyone, is it because He is unable to or doesn't want to? Does His love expire like a milk carton with its expiry date?

I'm not familiar with these verses.

.

Are you familiar with a Scriptural answer to those questions?

 

[ClementofA]

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Out-of-context. I addressed this before. Jeremiah was not speaking "thus saith the Lord." but his own and contemporary's circumstances. how the Lord had afflicted Israel because of their disobedience then delivered them.

The quoted verses say "SONS OF MEN", not Israel.

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[ClementofA]

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Please show me a verse or verses where God or Jesus is speaking and say that everyone will ultimately be saved no matter what.

See above.

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Have you ever feared going to endless torments?
Does the fear or belief in hell make you a better person?
Do you follow Jesus for fire insurance?



You answered "no" to the 3 questions above. You've never feared endless torments, so why should anyone else else fear endless torments or pay any attention to your remarks on the subject?

Then why do you spend so much time & effort opposing annihilation & universalism & arguing for endless torments. Why would it matter to you what anyone believes regarding these things. Shouldn't you be on other forums here preaching the gospel to the lost who you think are headed to endless tortures, instead of trying to convince Christians about your interpretation of what will occur in the afterlife?

This is not a good move.

I am not on this train.

 

[ClementofA]

Wrong! See above. If a person is killed by an atomic bomb their atoms might be dispersed but then they are not "from the presence" anything.

Thank you for your kindness in replying. However a life (human, plant or animal) can be destroyed "from the presence" of an atom bomb. Just as such can be destroyed "from the presence" of the Lord. As your Webster's definition stated: "-protection from the sun", i.e. from the sun's destructive power. Without "protection from the sun" it will destroy, said destruction coming "from the sun", i.e. "from the presence" of the sun.

Furthermore the word aionion in 2 Thess.1:9 does not mean eternal & can be translated eonian or lasting & refer to a finite period of time:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

 

[Der Alte]

Begin quote

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
The quoted verses say "SONS OF MEN", not Israel.

End

Lam 3:33
(33) For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:40
(40) Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41
(41) Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
Lam 3:42
(42) We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
Lam 3:43
(43) Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
Lam 3:44
(44) Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
Lam 3:47
(47) Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
Lam 3:49
(49) Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission,
Lam 3:61-66
(61) Thou hast heard their reproach, O LORD, and all their imaginations against me;
(62) The lips of those that rose up against me, and their device against me all the day.
(63) Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their musick.
(64) Render unto them a recompence, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
(65) Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.
(66) Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the LORD.​

First person pronouns "us,""our,""me,""mine,""I," NOT all mankind. "Persecute and destroy them from under the heavens" does not sound like universal reconciliation.

 

[Der Alte]

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Romans 5:17-19
(17) For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
(18) Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
(19) For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.​

Who are the many in this vs "those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness" vs. 17.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​

How did the Corinthians, Galatians, and Ephesians to whom Paul was writing understand the words "shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" Wait I know they just flipped open the letter to the Romans, which they probably had never seen, and knew that many meant all would be made righteous. I'm sure you can detect the sarcasm.

 

[ClementofA]

Romans 5:17-19
(17) For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
(18) Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
(19) For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Who are the many in this vs "those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness" vs. 17.​

​

Verse 17 makes no mention of "the many". V.19 does:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​

How did the Corinthians, Galatians, and Ephesians to whom Paul was writing understand the words "shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" Wait I know they just flipped open the letter to the Romans, which they probably had never seen, and knew that many meant all would be made righteous. I'm sure you can detect the sarcasm.

They understood that the unrighteous can (and will) become righteous & enter the kingdom of God, just as per Paul's teaching in Romans 5:18-19, (since he & Scripture don't contradict each other) . The unrighteous don't enter the kingdom of God until they are made righteous, not until they repent & cease being unrighteous, which they shall, as per the verse you quoted:

(19) For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

 

[ClementofA]

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
The quoted verses say "SONS OF MEN", not Israel.

Lam 3:33
(33) For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:40
(40) Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Lam 3:41
(41) Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
Lam 3:42
(42) We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
Lam 3:43
(43) Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
Lam 3:44
(44) Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
Lam 3:47
(47) Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
Lam 3:49
(49) Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission,
Lam 3:61-66
(61) Thou hast heard their reproach, O LORD, and all their imaginations against me;
(62) The lips of those that rose up against me, and their device against me all the day.
(63) Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their musick.
(64) Render unto them a recompence, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
(65) Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.
(66) Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the LORD.​

First person pronouns "us,""our,""me,""mine,""I," NOT all mankind. "Persecute and destroy them from under the heavens" does not sound like universal reconciliation.

It's harmonious with God not casting anyone off forever(v.31), which opposes both endless annihilation and endless torments:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

 

[Der Alte]

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save everyone, is it because He is unable to or doesn't want to? Does His love expire like a milk carton with its expiry date?
Are you familiar with a Scriptural answer to those questions?

Please show me a verse where "Love Omnipotent" is speaking and states clearly that He will save all mankind no matter what? I don't mean an out-of-context verse here and another one there where someone other than "Love Omnipotent" is speaking.

 

[Der Alte]

It's harmonious with God not casting anyone off forever(v.31), which opposes both endless annihilation and endless torments:
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Out-of-context "proof texts" which do not say what you try to make them say when read in-context. Already proved elsewhere. Link to scribblings by an anonymous person with no stated qualifications.

 

[ClementofA]

Please show me a verse where "Love Omnipotent" is speaking and states clearly that He will save all mankind no matter what? I don't mean an out-of-context verse here and another one there where someone other than "Love Omnipotent" is speaking.

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 5:10 says that those who have been reconciled "shall be saved by His life".

Therefore it could be argued that if the world has been reconciled to God (cf. 2 Cor.5:19; Rom.11:15; 5:9-11), then likewise the world also "shall be saved by His life".

2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

Verse 17 makes no mention of "the many". V.19 does:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
They understood that the unrighteous can (and will) become righteous & enter the kingdom of God, just as per Paul's teaching in Romans 5:18-19, (since he & Scripture don't contradict each other) . The unrighteous don't enter the kingdom of God until they are made righteous, not until they repent & cease being unrighteous, which they shall, as per the verse you quoted:
(19) For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

Please show me clear and convincing evidence that the Christians at Rome knew what Paul had written to the Corinthians and vice versa. Since you cannot do that, you can't use passages from 1-2 Corinthians to prove anything about passages in Romans and vice versa.
.....Unlike us the Christians in Rome and Corinth did not have the entire NT on a tablet or laptop where they could instantly look up and compare verses, Many of them could not even read. They could only know and understand what was read to them.

 

[Der Alte]

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Romans 5:10 says that those who have been reconciled "shall be saved by His life".
Therefore it could be argued that if the world has been reconciled to God (cf. 2 Cor.5:19; Rom.11:15; 5:9-11), then likewise the world also "shall be saved by His life".
2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Perhaps you did not understand my post, here it is again.

Please show me a verse where "Love Omnipotent" is speaking and states clearly that He will save all mankind no matter what? I don't mean an out-of-context verse here and another one there where someone other than "Love Omnipotent" is speaking.

In Romans and 1-2 Corinthians Paul is speaking not "Love Omnipotent" and none of what you quoted is preceded by "Thus saith the Lord."

 

[ClementofA]

Since you cannot do that, you can't use passages from 1-2 Corinthians to prove anything about passages in Romans and vice versa.
....

What comment of mine are you referring to?