LDS Mormon Requirements for Eternal Life

[Jane_Doe]

I'm not trying to be argumentative..
I really don't want to go through point by point how so much of what you've stated is not Biblical, only to have it glossed over.
I'm going to focus on two points: (1) forgiveness & (2) repentance

1)Jesus revealed forgiveness is 100% unconditional

1. God extends forgiveness to all people and is based entirely on Christ’s work.
2. People receive instead of earn the forgiveness of sins by placing their trust and confidence in the completed work of Christ.
3. Faith is the only instrument that accepts the gift of full forgiveness from God. All believers in Christ are fully reconciled with God and deemed worthy of eternal life.

2) Jesus revealed that repentance is that the full forgiveness of sins is not a process, since faith in Christ instantly receives salvation and the status of a full pardon from the penalty of sin.

1. there is no temple worthiness
2. there is no dependent upon a person’s obedience.
3. up to a person to do their part (as the first principles of the LDS gospel teaches)
4. there is no process \ progression plan of salvation

Biblical Christianity teaches concerning repentance is:

1. Repentance is a turn or change of mind, trusting in Jesus rather than our self to receive God’s acceptance.
2. This is based on the realization that our human nature is inherently corrupt and in need of a rescue.
3. Receiving the full forgiveness of sins is not a process, since faith in Christ instantly receives salvation and the status of a full pardon from the penalty of sin.
4. The mark of a person’s faith includes daily repentance, renewing our trust in what Christ has already done for us.

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You've not listened to my words, so I'll explain using your words, step by step. LDS *do* believe:

1. God extends forgiveness to all people and is based entirely on Christ’s work.
2. People receive instead of earn the forgiveness of sins by placing their trust and confidence in the completed work of Christ.
3. Faith is the only instrument that accepts the gift of full forgiveness from God. All believers in Christ are fully reconciled with God and deemed worthy of eternal life.

Are you following me thus far?

 

[Ironhold]

Again, I have to remind you that Jesus reveals who it is that has been freely 100% forgiven is the one who says " 'God be merciful to me a sinner.' " Jesus does not include "don't slack off".

Then what do you make of Matthew 5:48?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Was this an idle command?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Again, I have to remind you that Jesus reveals who it is that has been freely 100% forgiven is the one who says " 'God be merciful to me a sinner.' " Jesus does not include "don't slack off".

Do you believe accepting Christ gives a person license to sin?
LDS say "no". Do you disagree?

 

[twin.spin]

You've not listened to my words, so I'll explain using your words, step by step. LDS *do* believe:

1. God extends forgiveness to all people and is based entirely on Christ’s work.
2. People receive instead of earn the forgiveness of sins by placing their trust and confidence in the completed work of Christ.
3. Faith is the only instrument that accepts the gift of full forgiveness from God. All believers in Christ are fully reconciled with God and deemed worthy of eternal life.

Are you following me thus far?

Yes I do listen ... and that's what getting you impatient.
I'm going beyond the surface common terminology of words between Biblical Christianity and LDS theology and speaking in terms which a typical LDS person understands.

I do that because over the years in speaking to many folks like yourself, despite your objections, I know what "LDS *do* believe".

What's more, there's enough printed material from former and current LDS prophets and other official entities out there for people to know what "LDS *do* believe" ... without you having to explain it since they done so already.

 

[twin.spin]

Then what do you make of Matthew 5:48?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Was this an idle command?

That it's in the present tense "be perfect" \ is perfect" not "become" via proving yourself by not slacking off and eventually you might live in the celestial kingdom.

 

[twin.spin]

Do you believe accepting Christ gives a person license to sin?
LDS say "no". Do you disagree?

Changing the focus doesn't exempt what Jesus revealed doesn't support LDS teaching of conditional forgiveness \ repentance and proving oneself worthy now and in the hereafter.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes I do listen ... and that's what getting you impatient.
I'm going beyond the surface common terminology of words between Biblical Christianity and LDS theology and speaking in terms which a typical LDS person understands.

I do that because over the years in speaking to many folks like yourself, despite your objections, I know what "LDS *do* believe".

What's more, there's enough printed material from former and current LDS prophets and other official entities out there for people to know what "LDS *do* believe" ... without you having to explain it since they done so already.

I too have had many conversations with people throughout the years, including many folks who misunderstand LDS theology. Some will:
A) Some will listen and we can clear up misconceptions and have a Christ-like respectful conversation. I quite enjoy these conversations.
B) Some others will plug up their ears, refuse to listen, and say (to the jest) "I know what you really believe better than you." They aren't actually interested in talking, just lecturing about how I shouldn't believe whatever ridiculous thing they think I believe. As they aren't interested in talking, the only thing I can do is tell them goodbye and pray for them.

Which type of person are you?

I would like to talk to a type A person, but this comment is seems very type B.

 

[Rescued One]

There are two things that strike me about these posts.

Firstly, both of these Mormons feel they have been the victims of hate from Christians, and I have to assume this goes further than disagreement? That is wrong and breaks my heart, and I hope this has been a minority of Christians and not representative of the majority of us. There is no excuse for hate (I can sympathise as I have been the victim of this from Christians too). I for one am truly sorry that you have experienced this. To both @Jane_Doe and @Ironhold I would hope you both feel welcome here.

Secondly, it is important to understand that most Christians do not consider Mormons to be fellow Christians. Unless the Mormon Church has a radical revision of it's theology, that is not going to change. This will be why @Ironhold has seen Christians treating him and the Mormon Church as non Christians - because that is how we view the Mormon Church. That said, this raises an issue - how should Christians deal with those who are not Christians (for the purposes of this post, Mormons, Muslims, atheists - whatever)? 1 Peter 3:15 says, "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".

No one outside the Church (whether Mormons or any other faith) should ever feel that Christians are hateful towards them. That is unequivocally wrong. We can respectfully disagree, dialogue, discuss and debate without being hateful.

My view is that Christians aren't Christian if they are hateful. Jesus never gave us permission to hate anyone. Christians love God and others.

“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” 1 Peter 4:8

“Let all that you do be done in love.” 1 Corinthians 16:14

“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:18-19

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great…” Luke 6:35

“Live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” Ephesians 5:2

“The commandments…are summed up in the one command, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ If you love others, you will never do them wrong, to love, then, is to obey the whole Law.” Romans 13:9-10

“For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love, and of self-discipline.” 1 Timothy 1:7


"44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?" Matthew 5:44-47


"27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6: 27-36

“Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” 1 John 4:7-8

“Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” Matthew 22:37-39

 

[twin.spin]

I too have had many conversations with people throughout the years, including many folks who misunderstand LDS theology. Some will:
A) Some will listen and we can clear up misconceptions and have a Christ-like respectful conversation. I quite enjoy these conversations.
B) Some others will plug up their ears, refuse to listen, and say (to the jest) "I know what you really believe better than you." They aren't actually interested in talking, just lecturing about how I shouldn't believe whatever ridiculous thing they think I believe. As they aren't interested in talking, the only thing I can do is tell them goodbye and pray for them.

Which type of person are you?

I would like to talk to a type A person, but this comment is seems very type B.

I'm sure you have had many conversations with people throughout the years who've fall into one of those two either A) or B) .... I'm not either.

There is a third type:
C) you do the talking then I respond with the Biblical truth in love using terminology that you understand so as not to talk past one another.
I'm not here to debate you with what's wrong with Mormonism, rather point you to Jesus as revealed in Biblical Christianity.

How a conversation goes is solely contingent on how you respond to Biblical Christianity teaching as revealed by Jesus.

When I respond with what Jesus reveal in Biblical Christianity and you counter with something other, then who is telling Jesus " I know what you believe better than you" ?

 

[Rescued One]

Again, I have to remind you that Jesus reveals who it is that has been freely 100% forgiven is the one who says " 'God be merciful to me a sinner.' " Jesus does not include "don't slack off".

Perhaps Jesus doesn't say, "Don't slack off," but He doesn't say, "Ignore my commandments."

John 14
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[Rescued One]

You've not listened to my words, so I'll explain using your words, step by step. LDS *do* believe:

1. God extends forgiveness to all people and is based entirely on Christ’s work.
2. People receive instead of earn the forgiveness of sins by placing their trust and confidence in the completed work of Christ.
3. Faith is the only instrument that accepts the gift of full forgiveness from God. All believers in Christ are fully reconciled with God and deemed worthy of eternal life.

Are you following me thus far?

Is a Methodist worthy of eternal life if he rejects your prophets?

 

[Jane_Doe]

How a conversation goes is solely contingent on how you respond to Biblical Christianity teaching as revealed by Jesus.

I'm sorry, but what you are describing isn't a 'conversation' at all: it's just a lecture. I have no interest in that.

 

[twin.spin]

Perhaps Jesus doesn't say, "Don't slack off," but He doesn't say, "Ignore my commandments."

John 14
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
View attachment 223326

Correct, Jesus doesn't which means what ... oh well, that's besides the point?

I didn't say Jesus said "ignore my commandments".
The commandments was given to show what God's standard is to "Be perfect" ... not a score card i.e. "do all you can do" via proving worthiness now and in the life hereafter as the gospel plan.

 

[twin.spin]

I'm sorry, but what you are describing isn't a 'conversation' at all: it's just a lecture. I have no interest in that.

No lecture on my part ... it's you not having interest what Jesus revealed per Biblical Christianity.

However, hopefully you will take interest in what Jesus revealed instead of attempting to prove yourself worthy in gospel plan that isn't found the Bible.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No lecture on my part ... it's you not having interest what Jesus revealed per Biblical Christianity.

I am interested in two-way conversation, where both participants listen and respect each other, without trying to impose beliefs on each other.

If you have no interest in my thoughts/beliefs, and just want me to be shut up while you talk: that's a lecture. And it's a lecture that's just going to end up with you being upset because I have thoroughly studied both the Bible and Protestantism, and with all due respect I do not find them to be teaching the same.

I'm still happy to have a respectful two-way conversation with you about faith without any pressure. But if your goal is solely to convince me of the Truthfulness of Protestantism that isn't going to happen.

 

[dzheremi]

After what I can guess are many hours worth of conversation with Jane Doe on a variety of diverse topics relating to Christian and Mormon theology, I can attest to the fact that she really does seem interested in conversation. I'd be lying if I said I was always satisfied with the answers given to my questions about Mormonism (I'm very much a "show me what you believe in your tradition's prayers and liturgy" kind of guy, since I am Orthodox and this is how we measure what is believed by any particular church, including our own; this is hard to do with Mormonism because their 'liturgical worship', such as it is, is in their temples, not their weekly meeting houses, and they refuse to discuss the details of what goes on in the temple, or provide examples of it or texts to study), but I feel like most of the time, anyway, she does try to listen and answer questions. Ultimately, many conversations have had to end by concluding that we are simply too far apart in theology and practice to have common ground, but that in itself is still instructive, so I do appreciate it.

(I should also say, for the sake of presenting a more balanced picture of my experience thus far with Mormons here, there is a fair bit Mormon posters making statements about how they believe mainstream Christianity believes or practices that is not backed up by anything other than the Mormons' sense of how churches outside of their own are or must be, which is something I'd like to see less of, but whatcha gonna do, y'know? )

I write all this because I think our Lutheran friend might fare better in discussions with Mormons if things were presented in the format of "traditional Christianity/Lutheranism/my tradition interprets XYZ scripture or event in the following way; how does that differ or not differ from the Mormon interpretation of the same?" There are lots of things I learned about Mormonism here (that I still don't agree with, but at least now I know them!) by presenting the traditional Christian case for (e.g.,) creation ex nihilo, the consubstantiality of the Holy Trinity, the reliability of scripture and the actual history of its writing and canonization, etc. We say our peace and then let the chips fall where they may, confident that our faith is rooted in not just the scriptures, but in the great men and women of whatever tradition we are a part of who have interpreted it and lived it in the ancient times until today. And then Mormons also have a chance to say "Well, our church says ____, based on _____." You'll hardly ever agree (Mormon eisegesis is...well, eisegesis), but at least then no on has the feeling of being talked at, which nobody likes.

 

[Jane_Doe]

After what I can guess are many hours worth of conversation with Jane Doe on a variety of diverse topics relating to Christian and Mormon theology, I can attest to the fact that she really does seem interested in conversation.

Thank you.

 

[twin.spin]

I am interested in two-way conversation, where both participants listen and respect each other, without trying to impose beliefs on each other.

If you have no interest in my thoughts/beliefs, and just want me to be shut up while you talk: that's a lecture. And it's a lecture that's just going to end up with you being upset because I have thoroughly studied both the Bible and Protestantism, and with all due respect I do not find them to be teaching the same.

I'm still happy to have a respectful two-way conversation with you about faith without any pressure. But if your goal is solely to convince me of the Truthfulness of Protestantism that isn't going to happen.

1) I haven't said anything about Protestantism. I only have used Biblical Christianity teaching as the premise.

2) My "goal" is simply witness to the Biblical Christianity that Jesus revealed as taught in the Bible.

3) You're flattering yourself if you think I'm going to be upset that you reject Biblical Christianity ... I find it sad.

 

[Jane_Doe]

1) I haven't said anything about Protestantism. I only have used Biblical Christianity teaching as the premise.

2) My "goal" is simply witness to the Biblical Christianity that Jesus revealed as taught in the Bible.

3) You're flattering yourself if you think I'm going to be upset that you reject Biblical Christianity ... I find it sad.

Frankly, I've studied your faith, don't find it Biblical. I am not interested in adopting your faith or being lectured or treated this way. This conversation is over, may God be with you as you go about rest of your life.

 

[Rescued One]

Correct, Jesus doesn't which means what ... oh well, that's besides the point?

I didn't say Jesus said "ignore my commandments".
The commandments was given to show what God's standard is to "Be perfect" ... not a score card i.e. "do all you can do" via proving worthiness now and in the life hereafter as the gospel plan.

I'm so sorry. I just wanted people to know that we are expected to walk in the light after God releases us from the darkness.

Ephesians 5
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: