LDS Mormon Requirements for Eternal Life

[dzheremi]

In Christ's establishment of the Eucharist (in Luke 22, Matthew 26, 1 Corinthians, etc.), He says that His body and blood are to be given in remembrance of Him (Luke 22, 1 Corinthians 11 -- the latter being St. Paul's instruction from what he has received), for the remission of sins (Matthew 26), etc.

The establishment of 'ordinances' particular to Mormonism which one must do to gain 'exaltation', if it is not fair to say it is the dreaded 'works-based salvation' much criticized by Protestantism (since I am not a Protestant, I will refrain from claiming so, as some of those same people look at Orthodoxy with the same suspicion, sadly), is at least something absent from the above narratives which are held to by the majority of the world's Christians of all confessions, even as their interpretation of exactly what that event means or what it established may vary (read: even those who claim it be purely a memorial/non-material remembrance still hold it, as for instance was the case in the Presbyterian church in which I was raised, who in keeping with their Reformed origins hold that their Eucharistic meal heralds the "spiritual" -- but not physical/literal -- presence of Christ among them).

Christ does not tell us we must be married for all eternity in a temple, or any of this stuff that is particular to Mormonism. In fact, given what's said by our Lord in Mark 12:25 and Matthew 22:30 about marriage at the resurrection (people will not marry nor be given in marriage), it can be fairly said that this idea of 'eternal marriages' -- if they are to extend into heaven after the resurrection -- is against the witness of scripture.

 

[twin.spin]

Clarification here: LDS don't think a person by themselves is going to ever be clean. We *do* devote ourselves every day to following Christ, and do very much acknowledge the shortcomings. However, God doesn't work like "you do X, and only after that will I pick up a finger". No, God empowers you from the minute you wake up, till the minute you got to sleep, and even between there. He is there every moment, we just strive to be the best disciples possible.

I really recommend this video explaining LDS view on the power of grace (if you have the time, I do realize it's long, but maybe you have some mindless housecleaning to do and can listen in)

I appreciate you offering a video to listen but I just as soon reply to whom intends to converse via by themselves, not through a third party lecture. Reason for that is because I could no less provide links how Biblical Grace is revealed.

I have had many of times had "grace" explained to me by many sincere LDS folks

"For we know that it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23)​

According to the LDS "True to the Faith" p 77

“Through grace, made available by the Savior’s atoning sacrifice, all people will be resurrected and receive immortality. But resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God. Our sins make us unclean and unfit to dwell in God’s presence, and we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).”​

That (2 Nephi 25:23) and "True to the Faith" is not Biblical grace.
Biblical Christianity teaches what Grace is: 1 John 2:2 KJV

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."​

Grace is the unmerited favor granted towards all people who by nature are sinful and cannot on their own earn forgiveness for their sins. This favor came in the form of Jesus Christ, God made flesh, and provided for humankind’s redemption through His sacrificial death. This love toward the unlovable and undeserving extends to all people

 

[Jane_Doe]

I appreciate you offering a video to listen but I just as soon reply to whom intends to converse via by themselves, not through a third party lecture.

No worries, I'm the same way. I was just offering in case you were interested (it actually talks extensively about all these verses you quoted).

Reason for that is because I could no less provide links how Biblical Grace is revealed.

I have had many of times had "grace" explained to me by many sincere LDS folks

"For we know that it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23)​

According to the LDS "True to the Faith" p 77

“Through grace, made available by the Savior’s atoning sacrifice, all people will be resurrected and receive immortality. But resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God. Our sins make us unclean and unfit to dwell in God’s presence, and we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).”​

That (2 Nephi 25:23) and "True to the Faith" is not Biblical grace.
Biblical Christianity teaches what Grace is: 1 John 2:2 KJV

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."​

Grace is the unmerited favor granted towards all people who by nature are sinful and cannot on their own earn forgiveness for their sins. This favor came in the form of Jesus Christ, God made flesh, and provided for humankind’s redemption through His sacrificial death. This love toward the unlovable and undeserving extends to all people

Actually, all these verses/quotes are saying the same thing. Grace is indeed a gift from God, you don't 'earn' it. But the idea that Christ suffered and died on the cross for us to say "well thanks, now I'm just going to to keep going about my sinful way" (an idea sometimes coined 'cheap grace') also goes against scripture. Rather, disciples whom love God strive to keep His commandments (obviously with much grace and repentance every step).

 

[Rescued One]

Since it has come up, for the thread's consideration here is the Mormon perspective on tithing and donations:

And here is an ex-Mormon's perspective on Mormon tithing (answering criticisms from Mormons on a previous video he made on the subject):

WOW! I'm glad I watched the second video to the very end. At first, I was kind of against the ex-Mormon's comments. At the end I agreed with him!

I paid a full ten per cent. When I told the bishop I was leaving, he wanted me to come in and talk to him. I told him I didn't need to do that. He yelled at me over the phone that I owed it to the church. I never asked for a refund.

 

[twin.spin]

No worries, I'm the same way. I was just offering in case you were interested (it actually talks extensively about all these verses you quoted).

Actually, all these verses/quotes are saying the same thing. Grace is indeed a gift from God, you don't 'earn' it. But the idea that Christ suffered and died on the cross for us to say "well thanks, now I'm just going to to keep going about my sinful way" (an idea sometimes coined 'cheap grace') also goes against scripture. Rather, disciples whom love God strive to keep His commandments (obviously with much grace and repentance every step).

Please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative.
I have had many LDS folks like yourself claim that one doesn't "earn" ... however that is exactly what is being done via the LDS plan of salvation when one is proving themselves worthy when one views grace as part of striving to keep commandments and repentance every step:

"Rather, disciples whom love God strive to keep His commandments (obviously with much grace and repentance every step)"​

Grace is not connected with striving to keep His commandments, and repentance every step.

Biblical Christianity teaches:
Grace is the unmerited favor granted towards all people who by nature are sinful and cannot on their own earn forgiveness for their sins. This favor came in the form of Jesus Christ, God made flesh, and provided for humankind’s redemption through His sacrificial death. This love toward the unlovable and undeserving extends to all people (1 John 2:2).

 

[Rescued One]

Problem is, a rather large percentage of mainline Christianity hold "once saved, always saved" to be just that, and a rather large percentage of that are involved in the Christian counter-cult movement, meaning that the people you guys don't want "witnessing" to people very often are.

You know nothing about statistics among what you call "mainline Christianity."

 

[Rescued One]

No worries, I'm the same way. I was just offering in case you were interested (it actually talks extensively about all these verses you quoted).

Actually, all these verses/quotes are saying the same thing. Grace is indeed a gift from God, you don't 'earn' it. But the idea that Christ suffered and died on the cross for us to say "well thanks, now I'm just going to to keep going about my sinful way" (an idea sometimes coined 'cheap grace') also goes against scripture. Rather, disciples whom love God strive to keep His commandments (obviously with much grace and repentance every step).

ALL blessings are earned per Mormon scripture.

D&C 130
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

You do the work, you'll get paid, maybe not on Friday, but sometime down the road.

 

[Rescued One]

See post #333 pertaining to obedience:

Why don't Mormon missionaries hand out the tripple combination?

The link takes you directly to that post.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative.
I have had many LDS folks like yourself claim that one doesn't "earn" ... however that is exactly what is being done via the LDS plan of salvation when one is proving themselves worthy when one views grace as part of striving to keep commandments and repentance every step:

"Rather, disciples whom love God strive to keep His commandments (obviously with much grace and repentance every step)"​

Grace is not connected with striving to keep His commandments, and repentance every step.

Biblical Christianity teaches:
Grace is the unmerited favor granted towards all people who by nature are sinful and cannot on their own earn forgiveness for their sins. This favor came in the form of Jesus Christ, God made flesh, and provided for humankind’s redemption through His sacrificial death. This love toward the unlovable and undeserving extends to all people (1 John 2:2).

Do you realize that an LDS person striving to follow Christ, it isn't because they're trying to "earn" salvation? Christ did that, not us.

 

[dzheremi]

I paid a full ten per cent. When I told the bishop I was leaving, he wanted me to come in and talk to him. I told him I didn't need to do that. He yelled at me over the phone that I owed it to the church. I never asked for a refund.
View attachment 223234

That's really weird and unpleasant that the bishop would yell at you. I'm sorry that happened.

I remember talking to my former stepmother (the one who had converted to Mormonism for a bit) once when we still used to talk and she said that she would have very much liked a refund from the Mormon church for her 10%, but that it would be more trouble than it is worth to try to get it, as that would involve having meetings with the Mormon leadership that she did not wish to have. Also, I am pretty sure there are laws in the USA that contributions classed as religious donations are not legally refundable, as they are considered charitable contributions. That is how organizations like the Church of Scientology abuse their first amendment status to amass millions in un-taxable 'donations', to use a much more extreme example.

I think that is why it is important that the Mormon leaders (and leaders of all religions which practice tithing or charitable giving to the organization) not promise direct benefits -tied to tithing, as that would open them up to allegations of religiously-based fraud, which is prosecutable in the United States, and is pursued via organizations that monitor it, such as the Trinity Foundation.

It's funny, because in my Church, which is very old and hence one might think would be entrenched with corruption in the way that priests or pastors of the Roman Catholic Church and its offshoots are sometimes charged with living luxuriously off the parishioner's dime (not without reason even according to the Vatican itself, sadly), the times that I have been asked to give have been clearly laid out: "We are trying to buy this property so that we can have a Church here", or "We run this monastery and retreat center which uses electricity, water, etc. like any other place would." And, of course, because we have paid clergy. But when my own former congregation of St. Bishoy in Albuquerque, NM was trying to purchase the building it now uses, I asked my priest, Fr. Marcus, what I ought to give, because at that time I was a poor graduate student depending on student loans not just for school, but for housing and other living essentials (since it was not possible for me to work for the majority of the time I was in school, due to the heavy course load combined with my own physical disability). He told me that student loans are not income, so I should not worry, as I am not expected to give from them. I gave anyway, but it was refreshing to hear an honest and sensible approach that recognized the real world circumstances that people are in. If I had to guess, we are this way because a huge percentage of the Church in Egypt are poor farmers for whom survival on the basic subsistence level is hard enough, so it is better to be merciful and receive two mites (as I doubt my own paltry contribution did anything more than maybe keep the lights on in the new church for a month or so) from those who really want to give than to compel people who might not be able to afford to do so to endanger themselves so that the Church can reach some kind of magic number or right percentage.

And, unlike the Mormon Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church is not a corporation and has never opened a mall...

(But we are all supposed to be so impressed at their lack of paid clergy! )

 

[Rescued One]

I don't understand the distinction you are making between salvation and exaltation. I have read quite a bit about Mormonism and I have never seen the term "prefer ion" that you are using. What is your condition in eternity if you are saved but don't qualify for exaltation?

Some Mormons refer to resurrection (no matter where you're sent for eternity) as salvation. Exaltation means you have eternal life in the presence of the Father and Son because you are worthy of being with Them.

One of the reasons I ask about the impact of marriage on your status in eternity is that many people die before they can get married. Some die as children or adolescents, or are unmarried for other reasons. The Mormon missionaries we see on bicycles are unmarried. If they are hit by a huge pickup truck on their bicycle and pass away, are they disadvantaged in the next world because they didn't live long enough to get married?

Anyone who isn't able to get married in the temple will have the opportunity in the Millennium.

Where I live, Orlando, Florida, is one of the nearest large cities. A while back there was a piece in the news about a Mormon couple planning to get married. The woman was shot and killed by a criminal the day before their wedding. This is bad enough for anyone but Mormon theology makes it worse. The man doesn't expect to be reunited with his beloved in eternity, he expects to be separated from her in eternity. "He [the criminal] has destroyed our family forever," the groom said.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Dale]

That'll be handled on a case-by-case basis.

People who never got the chance, or forwent marriage in pursuit of a legitimately higher purpose, likely won't have it counted against them.

If, on the other hand, you didn't get married because you were a disreputable person, then that's going to be where the problems lie.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus did NOT say, "Thou shalt get married." He did say that people who are married should stay married, although Paul made it clear that there are some exceptions to this.

 

[Rescued One]

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus did NOT say, "Thou shalt get married." He did say that people who are married should stay married, although Paul made it clear that there are some exceptions to this.

Being married isn't enough for Mormons; it has to be a temple marriage. Getting married in the chapel where they meet every Sunday is "until death do you part."

 

[twin.spin]

Do you realize that an LDS person striving to follow Christ, it isn't because they're trying to "earn" salvation? Christ did that, not us.

I realize what is meant when ""it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23)

"after ... all ... we ... can ... do" is salvation by works = the same as "earn".
That is why in Mormonism one proves themselves worthy of exaltation for possible life with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom.

If you aren't trying because Christ did, then reject "after all you can do" ... stop striving to progress... stop attempting to become perfect ... stop proving yourself worthy.

Jesus revealed that Heavenly Father only requires faith, and by believing you will have life with him ... assured .... period.

 

[DW1980]

I thank you for you heartfelt sentiment here. I cannot say that the sentiment of respect and Christ-like conduct is shared with all Christians/Christian churches I have encountered (some of which have been downright hateful).

I brought it up because it does happen, and those of us who are LDS have seen it happen far, far too often.

Someone will display full-on hate towards us and/or lie through their teeth about what we believe. When we call them out on it, their pals will throw up a smokescreen rather than address the fact that there's a problem within their own ranks.

There are two things that strike me about these posts.

Firstly, both of these Mormons feel they have been the victims of hate from Christians, and I have to assume this goes further than disagreement? That is wrong and breaks my heart, and I hope this has been a minority of Christians and not representative of the majority of us. There is no excuse for hate (I can sympathise as I have been the victim of this from Christians too). I for one am truly sorry that you have experienced this. To both @Jane_Doe and @Ironhold I would hope you both feel welcome here.

Secondly, it is important to understand that most Christians do not consider Mormons to be fellow Christians. Unless the Mormon Church has a radical revision of it's theology, that is not going to change. This will be why @Ironhold has seen Christians treating him and the Mormon Church as non Christians - because that is how we view the Mormon Church. That said, this raises an issue - how should Christians deal with those who are not Christians (for the purposes of this post, Mormons, Muslims, atheists - whatever)? 1 Peter 3:15 says, "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".

No one outside the Church (whether Mormons or any other faith) should ever feel that Christians are hateful towards them. That is unequivocally wrong. We can respectfully disagree, dialogue, discuss and debate without being hateful.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I realize what is meant when ""it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23)

"after ... all ... we ... can ... do" is salvation by works = the same as "earn".
That is why in Mormonism one proves themselves worthy of exaltation for possible life with Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom.

If you aren't trying because Christ did, then reject "after all you can do" ... stop striving to progress... stop attempting to become perfect ... stop proving yourself worthy.

Jesus revealed that Heavenly Father only requires faith, and by believing you will have life with him ... assured .... period.

When an LDS person strives to follow Christ (say for example, feeding a man in need), they are *not* trying to 'earn' salvation. Christ did that- He paid the price. It doesn't matter how much good you do, even after all you do, it's still Christ which saves you.

Christ *does* ask us to show faith in Him, repent, make and keep covenants. By complying, we are not paying the demands of justice—not even the smallest part. Instead, we are showing appreciation for what Christ did. Because Jesus took the punishment for our sins already. We simply accept His gift and try to exercise it, Him empowering every moment.

 

[Ironhold]

I realize what is meant when ""it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23)

Basically, the passage means "don't slack off." If you claim the name of Christ, you need to be living in a fashion that reflects God's light. You can't just say a prayer and think you've got a one-way ticket.

Yes, I've literally seen elements of mainline Christianity advocate that, including tracts that say which prayer you're supposed to say for instant salvation.

 

[Ironhold]

There are two things that strike me about these posts.

Firstly, both of these Mormons feel they have been the victims of hate from Christians, and I have to assume this goes further than disagreement?

I've dealt with everything from personal insults to threats of violence.

That said, this raises an issue - how should Christians deal with those who are not Christians (for the purposes of this post, Mormons, Muslims, atheists - whatever)?

1 Corinthians 13 lays it out pretty clearly: you can have all the truth in the world, but if you're not presenting that truth with love and wisdom your words are but so much noise.

I've seen far too many people forget this in their rush to label and condemn.

 

[twin.spin]

When an LDS person strives to follow Christ (say for example, feeding a man in need), they are *not* trying to 'earn' salvation. Christ did that- He paid the price. It doesn't matter how much good you do, even after all you do, it's still Christ which saves you.

Christ *does* ask us to show faith in Him, repent, make and keep covenants. By complying, we are not paying the demands of justice—not even the smallest part. Instead, we are showing appreciation for what Christ did. Because Jesus took the punishment for our sins already. We simply accept His gift and try to exercise it, Him empowering every moment.

I'm not trying to be argumentative..
I really don't want to go through point by point how so much of what you've stated is not Biblical, only to have it glossed over.
I'm going to focus on two points: (1) forgiveness & (2) repentance

1)Jesus revealed forgiveness is 100% unconditional

1. God extends forgiveness to all people and is based entirely on Christ’s work.
2. People receive instead of earn the forgiveness of sins by placing their trust and confidence in the completed work of Christ.
3. Faith is the only instrument that accepts the gift of full forgiveness from God. All believers in Christ are fully reconciled with God and deemed worthy of eternal life.

2) Jesus revealed that repentance is that the full forgiveness of sins is not a process, since faith in Christ instantly receives salvation and the status of a full pardon from the penalty of sin.

1. there is no temple worthiness
2. there is no dependent upon a person’s obedience.
3. up to a person to do their part (as the first principles of the LDS gospel teaches)
4. there is no process \ progression plan of salvation

Biblical Christianity teaches concerning repentance is:

1. Repentance is a turn or change of mind, trusting in Jesus rather than our self to receive God’s acceptance.
2. This is based on the realization that our human nature is inherently corrupt and in need of a rescue.
3. Receiving the full forgiveness of sins is not a process, since faith in Christ instantly receives salvation and the status of a full pardon from the penalty of sin.
4. The mark of a person’s faith includes daily repentance, renewing our trust in what Christ has already done for us.

​

​

 

[twin.spin]

Basically, the passage means "don't slack off." If you claim the name of Christ, you need to be living in a fashion that reflects God's light. You can't just say a prayer and think you've got a one-way ticket.

Yes, I've literally seen elements of mainline Christianity advocate that, including tracts that say which prayer you're supposed to say for instant salvation.

Again, I have to remind you that Jesus reveals who it is that has been freely 100% forgiven is the one who says " 'God be merciful to me a sinner.' " Jesus does not include "don't slack off".