LDS Mormon Requirements for Eternal Life

[dzheremi]

Here's a question:

If Phoebe Ann is misrepresenting LDS beliefs, then why do her posts contain citations (and links when available), while the posts that insist that she is wrong do not cite anything? The Ensign and the various manuals that she links to are LDS-produced materials, whereas the reply is "You are misrepresenting things" or "Are you trying to convert us?" or whatever. It's very unconvincing and weird.

 

[Ironhold]

Here's a question:

If Phoebe Ann is misrepresenting LDS beliefs, then why do her posts contain citations (and links when available), while the posts that insist that she is wrong do not cite anything? The Ensign and the various manuals that she links to are LDS-produced materials, whereas the reply is "You are misrepresenting things" or "Are you trying to convert us?" or whatever. It's very unconvincing and weird.

You have to go back to the links and read the material in full context, including how the material relates to companion publications.

Anyone can pluck anything at random from any source and make it say how they want it to say. You've got to track back to where they pulled it from. It's academics 101.

 

[TuxAme]

Do Mormons believe in the Real Presence? I followed the link to "the sacrament", but it didn't say. I'm curious.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Do Mormons believe in the Real Presence? I followed the link to "the sacrament", but it didn't say. I'm curious.

LDS partake of the Lord's Supper in symbolic remembrance of Him and renewal of the promises we've made with Him. So, no transubstantiation, but neither is it a "doesn't do anything" rite.

 

[dzheremi]

You have to go back to the links and read the material in full context, including how the material relates to companion publications.

Anyone can pluck anything at random from any source and make it say how they want it to say. You've got to track back to where they pulled it from. It's academics 101.

Yes, they can, hence including links whenever possible.

Do you want to actually answer the question now, perhaps? Again, it seems incredibly disingenuous to claim that someone who is citing their sources and providing links or sometimes actual pictures of the materials in question (when links aren't available) is misrepresenting things when those making that claim cannot even meet that standard themselves when attempting to refute the person they say is misrepresenting them. You know, when people claim things that I know are wrong about my own faith, I reply with citations and quotes from my own church's books, prayers, etc. that show how they are wrong. I don't just say "You're wrong" and leave it at that, as though everyone should take my word for it against whatever evidence has been presented.

 

[devin553344]

Eternal life to a Mormon is exaltation to godhood.

"To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

"He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.
6. In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:
7. Love God and our neighbors.
8. Keep the commandments.
9. Repent of our wrongdoings.
10. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
13. Have family and individual prayers every day.
14. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
15. Study the scriptures.
16. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
    Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.

Chapter 47: Exaltation
Covenants are made in the temple that must also be kept.

You left out paying 10% to the LDS church. In order to go to the temple which is part of your salvation you must pay them 10% of your income.

I'm leery of any church requiring payment. Accept to maintain the operations of the church. Allow me to explain: My tithing goes to cloth the naked, feed the hungry, comfort the sick, and visit those in prison etc. Our government already does that for us, so we pay taxes for that now. So why pay a church a full tithe of 10%? In my opinion 10% is an old law that is no longer supported in scripture.

 

[Ironhold]

You left out paying 10% to the LDS church. In order to go to the temple which is part of your salvation you must pay them 10% of your income.

I'm leery of any church requiring payment. Accept to maintain the operations of the church. Allow me to explain: My tithing goes to cloth the naked, feed the hungry, comfort the sick, and visit those in prison etc. Our government already does that for us, so we pay taxes for that now. So why pay a church a full tithe of 10%? In my opinion 10% is an old law that is no longer supported in scripture.

Actually, it's possible for someone to get tagged as "exempt" from having to pay tithing.

Back when I was a branch finance clerk, I saw a few people with that tag when I was compiling the end-of-the-year reports.

As it is, there's a bit of a joke going around that the church does more with 10% than most governments do with far larger amounts.

 

[Ironhold]

Yes, they can, hence including links whenever possible.

Do you want to actually answer the question now, perhaps? Again, it seems incredibly disingenuous to claim that someone who is citing their sources and providing links or sometimes actual pictures of the materials in question (when links aren't available) is misrepresenting things when those making that claim cannot even meet that standard themselves when attempting to refute the person they say is misrepresenting them. You know, when people claim things that I know are wrong about my own faith, I reply with citations and quotes from my own church's books, prayers, etc. that show how they are wrong. I don't just say "You're wrong" and leave it at that, as though everyone should take my word for it against whatever evidence has been presented.

The last posts I've seen had lengthier explanations, with callbacks to the material itself.

Which posts are you specifically referring to?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, they can, hence including links whenever possible.

Do you want to actually answer the question now, perhaps? Again, it seems incredibly disingenuous to claim that someone who is citing their sources and providing links or sometimes actual pictures of the materials in question (when links aren't available) is misrepresenting things when those making that claim cannot even meet that standard themselves when attempting to refute the person they say is misrepresenting them. You know, when people claim things that I know are wrong about my own faith, I reply with citations and quotes from my own church's books, prayers, etc. that show how they are wrong. I don't just say "You're wrong" and leave it at that, as though everyone should take my word for it against whatever evidence has been presented.

Ways to lie while still citing sources:
-Cite crap sources
-Use wrong/mixed up definitions
-Leading framework as to have a read draw the wrong conclusion
-Conveniently omit important facts/definitions/background material
-Omission of important companion material
-Hope the reader doesn't actually look at the source and realize you've jacked the context
-Hypocrisy (such as acting like you don't believe the same thing)
-Incorrect evaluation of reliative importance of facts
-Statistics. Oh there's so many ways to lie with statistics.
And many more.

This is all basic research ethics.

 

[dqhall]

Eternal life to a Mormon is exaltation to godhood.

"To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

"He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.
6. In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:
7. Love God and our neighbors.
8. Keep the commandments.
9. Repent of our wrongdoings.
10. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
13. Have family and individual prayers every day.
14. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
15. Study the scriptures.
16. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
    Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.

Chapter 47: Exaltation
Covenants are made in the temple that must also be kept.

I am not a Mormon. There are somethings that you wrote that I could not argue with. Any person with a New Testament might be able to find some of these without stepping foot in a Mormon church. I did not agree with the polygamy of Joseph Smith. I do not know what seeking out the kindred dead means. Marriage as salvation does not always work. Even Muslims and atheists marry. I know Jeremiah was not married. Jesus was not married. Paul was not married. Jesus taught when the dead rise they will not be married, but will be like the angels of heaven (Mark 12). I recall Joseph Smith was indicted for bank fraud and had numerous charges against him.

 

[devin553344]

Actually, it's possible for someone to get tagged as "exempt" from having to pay tithing.

Back when I was a branch finance clerk, I saw a few people with that tag when I was compiling the end-of-the-year reports.

As it is, there's a bit of a joke going around that the church does more with 10% than most governments do with far larger amounts.

That appears to be too far of a statement, for instance, who pays for disabled peoples healthcare? I know I used to be LDS, and I am disabled and was turned down by the LDS church for receiving any aid. I thank God that our government has mercy and handles that instead of the LDS church. I was determined disabled by the State department and receive benefits only because our government supports the disabled.

 

[Dale]

I am not a Mormon. There are somethings that you wrote that I could not argue with. Any person with a New Testament might be able to find some of these without stepping foot in a Mormon church. I did not agree with the polygamy of Joseph Smith. I do not know what seeking out the kindred dead means. Marriage as salvation does not always work. Even Muslims and atheists marry. I know Jeremiah was not married. Jesus was not married. Paul was not married. Jesus taught when the dead rise they will not be married, but will be like the angels of heaven (Mark 12). I recall Joseph Smith was indicted for bank fraud and had numerous charges against him.

The LDS church teaches that Jesus was married and had children. As I understand their doctrine, even Jesus couldn't achieve salvation, or exaltation, unless he was married.

The main distinction in Mormonism is between those who will reign in heaven and those who will serve there.

 

[Rescued One]

I am not a Mormon. There are somethings that you wrote that I could not argue with. Any person with a New Testament might be able to find some of these without stepping foot in a Mormon church. I did not agree with the polygamy of Joseph Smith. I do not know what seeking out the kindred dead means. Marriage as salvation does not always work. Even Muslims and atheists marry. I know Jeremiah was not married. Jesus was not married. Paul was not married. Jesus taught when the dead rise they will not be married, but will be like the angels of heaven (Mark 12). I recall Joseph Smith was indicted for bank fraud and had numerous charges against him.

The marriage ceremony for time and eternity is only performed in the Mormon temples; unworthy Mormon snd non-Mormons are not permitted there. All marriages performed outside the temples are absolved upon death. Mormons believe that temple marriages last forever if the husband and wife continue to obey the commandments that the Mormon church teaches.

Seeking out your kindred dead means you trace your genealogy and go through the temple ordinances for each ancestor. You or someone else is baptized by proxy in the temple basement for each ancestor that wasn't a Mormon.


Salt Lake City Temple Baptistry

 

[Rescued One]

That appears to be too far of a statement, for instance, who pays for disabled peoples healthcare? I know I used to be LDS, and I am disabled and was turned down by the LDS church for receiving any aid. I thank God that our government has mercy and handles that instead of the LDS church. I was determined disabled by the State department and receive benefits only because our government supports the disabled.

I don't know why they turned you down, but I was told by the Mormons that only full tithe payers receive aid.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The LDS church teaches that Jesus was married and had children. As I understand their doctrine, even Jesus couldn't achieve salvation, or exaltation, unless he was married.

Actually such statements are non-canonical speculations. The LDS Church has no official stance on the matter. It is important to remember that LDS do not believe that exhalation or prefer ion are achieved in this mortal life, and for many people entire chapters come after this life.

The main distinction in Mormonism is between those who will reign in heaven and those who will serve there.

Not really.

 

[Rescued One]

Ways to lie while still citing sources:
-Cite crap sources
-Use wrong/mixed up definitions
-Leading framework as to have a read draw the wrong conclusion
-Conveniently omit important facts/definitions/background material
-Omission of important companion material
-Hope the reader doesn't actually look at the source and realize you've jacked the context
-Hypocrisy (such as acting like you don't believe the same thing)
-Incorrect evaluation of reliative importance of facts
-Statistics. Oh there's so many ways to lie with statistics.
And many more.

This is all basic research ethics.

I do none of the above and hope that people will look at the sources. Most people aren't curious enough about Mormonism to take up their time looking at all the sources though.

 

[devin553344]

I don't know why they turned you down, but I was told by the Mormons that only full tithe payers receive aid.

I was a full tithe payer and worked in the temple. I have schizophrenia and could work for about 10 years until my symptoms got worse, which is when it happened, now I'm on a full dose of medication which is disabling to me. I was told by my Bishop that I looked fine to work physically, and by appearance I was judged. But my disability is mental. He called himself a Judge in Israel, and believed he was correct. But my brain wasn't working back then and I was on a much lower dose of medications. But that's all in the past and now I'm Catholic. My dose is higher and I can think straight now for the most part, but I still get symptoms and am fatigued most of the time. I'm only awake for about 10-12 hours a day.

 

[dzheremi]

Ways to lie while still citing sources:
-Cite crap sources

The Gospel Principles manual and the Ensign from the LDS.org website are "crap sources"? Good to know.

-Use wrong/mixed up definitions

Where did that happen?

-Leading framework as to have a read draw the wrong conclusion

Where did that happen?

-Conveniently omit important facts/definitions/background material
-Omission of important companion material

Can you please provide for us whatever important background and companion material we should be reading, then? If you know that something should be there in order to give non-Mormons a more complete picture, I would think you would want to make sure it is there, particularly in the context of a situation where you claim that someone is deliberately misrepresenting your faith.

-Hope the reader doesn't actually look at the source and realize you've jacked the context

I don't know about everyone else, but I do follow the links given. I have chapter 47 of the Gospel Principles manual open in another tab right now, because I want to see the quoted portion in context.

-Hypocrisy (such as acting like you don't believe the same thing)

What do you have in mind here?

-Incorrect evaluation of reliative importance of facts

And here?

-Statistics. Oh there's so many ways to lie with statistics.

What statistics are there in the OP?

This is all basic research ethics.

I agree. It's just not clear to me how this relates to the OP in particular.

 

[Rescued One]

You left out paying 10% to the LDS church. In order to go to the temple which is part of your salvation you must pay them 10% of your income....

You're right. I was wondering why the Lesson Manual didn't include that. That's one of their commandments and you must keep it if you want entrance to the temple. The manual also doesn't mention the dietary law (Word of Wisdom) that eventually became a requirement for all temple recommends. If you drink coffee or tea you can't have the required temple marriage.

 

[Rescued One]

I was a full tithe payer and worked in the temple. I have schizophrenia and could work for about 10 years until my symptoms got worse, which is when it happened, now I'm on a full dose of medication which is disabling to me. I was told by my Bishop that I looked fine to work physically, and by appearance I was judged. But my disability is mental. He called himself a Judge in Israel, and believed he was correct. But my brain wasn't working back then and I was on a much lower dose of medications. But that's all in the past and now I'm Catholic. My dose is higher and I can think straight now for the most part, but I still get symptoms and am fatigued most of the time. I'm only awake for about 10-12 hours a day.

Oh, I'm so sorry! I care about people with any disability. There are so many!