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I really don't think so, I think the lake of fire is the absolute end. There is a terrible moment when there is wailing and gnashing of teeth but I think it's mercifully brief. Jesus says God destroys the body and soul in hell, not that they suffer punishment forever. And something else, when the children of perdition go into the flames God doesn't rejoice, he grieves. It's not about punishment, it's about the permanent nature of perdition.

I tend to not think so for satan and his angels because Jesus said; “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" and a few verses later he say's “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” So at best it is mercifully brief for humans but not so for satan and his angels. Everlasting fire and punishment and especially punishment is not punishment if none are being punished no? Consistency with "everlasting" is important.
 
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Conclusion:
... the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment.

Annihilationism is therefore...biblical.

Jesus was going to the house of Jairus, a synagogue leader. Jairus' daughter was seriously ill.

Mark 5:35 (WEB) While he was still speaking, people came from the synagogue ruler's house saying, "Your daughter is dead. Why bother the Teacher any more?" 36 But Jesus, when he heard the message spoken, immediately said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Don't be afraid, only believe." 37 He allowed no one to follow him, except Peter, James, and John the brother of James. 38 He came to the synagogue ruler's house, and he saw an uproar, weeping, and great wailing. 39 When he had entered in, he said to them, "Why do you make an uproar and weep? The child is not dead, but is asleep." 40 They ridiculed him. But he, having put them all out, took the father of the child, her mother, and those who were with him, and went in where the child was lying. 41 Taking the child by the hand, he said to her, "Talitha cumi!" which means, being interpreted, "Girl, I tell you, get up!" 42 Immediately the girl rose up and walked, for she was twelve years old. They were amazed with great amazement. 43 He strictly ordered them that no one should know this, and commanded that something should be given to her to eat.

People are not dead, but are sleeping. Eternal life will survive annihilation. There is a reward for righteousness. God's wrath did not kill Jesus. Pilate ordered Roman soldiers to crucify Jesus to satisfy the demands of the high priests and a mob of their supporters.
 
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mark kennedy

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I tend to not think so for satan and his angels because Jesus said; “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" and a few verses later he say's “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” So at best it is mercifully brief for humans but not so for satan and his angels. Everlasting fire and punishment and especially punishment is not punishment if none are being punished no? Consistency with "everlasting" is important.
The fires burn forever, I just don't think the suffering lasts forever. The punishment is forever, that doesn't mean that they have to survive it forever.
 
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The fires burn forever, I just don't think the suffering lasts forever. The punishment is forever, that doesn't mean that they have to survive it forever.

Problem is applying the same principal to everlasting life, being consistent with the principal.
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Jesus was going to the house of Jairus, a synagogue leader. Jairus' daughter was seriously ill.

Mark 5:35 (WEB) While he was still speaking, people came from the synagogue ruler's house saying, "Your daughter is dead. Why bother the Teacher any more?" 36 But Jesus, when he heard the message spoken, immediately said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Don't be afraid, only believe." 37 He allowed no one to follow him, except Peter, James, and John the brother of James. 38 He came to the synagogue ruler's house, and he saw an uproar, weeping, and great wailing. 39 When he had entered in, he said to them, "Why do you make an uproar and weep? The child is not dead, but is asleep." 40 They ridiculed him. But he, having put them all out, took the father of the child, her mother, and those who were with him, and went in where the child was lying. 41 Taking the child by the hand, he said to her, "Talitha cumi!" which means, being interpreted, "Girl, I tell you, get up!" 42 Immediately the girl rose up and walked, for she was twelve years old. They were amazed with great amazement. 43 He strictly ordered them that no one should know this, and commanded that something should be given to her to eat.

People are not dead, but are sleeping. Eternal life will survive annihilation. There is a reward for righteousness. God's wrath did not kill Jesus. Pilate ordered Roman soldiers to crucify Jesus to satisfy the demands of the high priests and a mob of their supporters.
So you don't think there's any chance that girl was simply in a deep sleep? You don't think she could have been in a coma?

Why would the Lake of Fire be called the Second Death if there is no first death?

You think that the people who got incinerated by the nuke in Hiroshima are sleeping and never actually died?

You don't think that the resurrections referred to in Revelation actually have anything to do with death at all?
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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The fires burn forever, I just don't think the suffering lasts forever. The punishment is forever, that doesn't mean that they have to survive it forever.
Sodom was burned with eternal fire as well. Burning sulfur and brimstone. Let's see how it looks today:

sodom-gomorrah-warning-to-lgbt-movvement-today-burning-sulpher-fire-brimstone.jpg
 
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Jordan Henshaw

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Scripture does NOT say God "will" destroy, it says God is "able" to destroy the body and soul. God created man therefore He can destroy them. I do not know of a single verse which says God has or will destroy any soul.
Matthew 10:28
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
So we have a verse that we have reason to fear having our bodies and souls destroyed, many verses telling us that the wicked will be killed, destroyed, and burned up, and a TON of verses telling us the eternal life is a gift only for the righteous.

But zero verses that say that a man's soul or spirit is inherently immortal. ZERO.
 
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DavidPT

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Scripture does NOT say God "will" destroy, it says God is "able" to destroy the body and soul. God created man therefore He can destroy them. I do not know of a single verse which says God has or will destroy any soul.
Matthew 10:28
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




Don't you find it ludicrous for Jesus to have said ----And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul---if God Himself is unable to kill the soul? Why even bring that up if it's not anything God is capable of doing? If there is no such thing as killing the soul, why did Jesus bring up something that's not possible? Some might argue that it's indeed possible for God to kill the soul, except that He doesn't and won't. Once again, assuming that's the case, why even bring up the possibility if it's never going to happen ever? If killing the body is meaning literally, it would be cherry picking to not take the killing of the soul literally as well.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill(apokteino) the body, but are not able to kill(apokteino) the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy(apollumi) both soul and body in hell.


Destroy and kill in that verse, though not the same Greek word, are still meaning the same thing, that being to kill. And the following passage proves destroy can in some contexts mean to kill.

Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy(apollumi) him.

This verse says---for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. To destroy Him wasn't meaning to torment Him, it was clearly meaning to kill Him.
 
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GUANO

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If there is an eternal, conscious soul inside of us that cannot be killed, then effectively, there is no such thing as death and Christ had no reason to come to earth.

There is this weird thing that happened during the dark ages where everyone became dumb and started to believe in fables as of they were reality. I really don't understand how people don't grasp the kingdom of heaven, it's clearly described throughout the bibe.

The spirit world is the psyche, the mind. Spirits are not conscious beings, they are motivating principles and 'essences' of things observed. Sure, your spirit lives on long after you die but it's not conscious of any thing because u have no brain to think, no eyes to see, etc...

The underworld as understood in ancient times is the collective consciousness that we are only beginning to understand once again.

In ancient times, the psyche or 'spirit' was modeled using an allegory of heaven and earth... Your individual mind contains the whole of heaven and earth. The deepest parts of your mind is the underworld... your highest influences are taken for the sun, the moon, and the stars... the mood is the "atmosphere" (which is still the definition today). Light is awareness, darkness is ignorance...

Now, there are larger entities as well, for instance, a nation is a body. This body also has a 'kind' of psyche in which there is a heaven (ruling principles) and earth (people). This being is called an egregore and it was known as a type of archangel in ancient times before it was called a corporate entity. Prophecies, dreams, and visions pertaining to a nation are related to these beings, which are usually typified as beasts in these visions.

There is also a higher level yet, global. The imagery of this "3rd" heaven is the same as the second as far as it relates to light, dark, ect.... in this model the stars are usually the nations themselves.

The language and symbolism is standard and each of the symbols are easily defined using the words of the prophets themselves... mountains, rivers, seas, stars, beasts, etc... These all represent certain things within the organization.
 
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If there is an eternal, conscious soul inside of us that cannot be killed, then effectively, there is no such thing as death and Christ had no reason to come to earth.

It is God that gives life and takes it. In other words, if a soul is made eternal it is God that makes it eternal, if a soul is destroyed likewise it is God that makes it temporal. And that is why I think the second "death" for humans is destruction of the soul, and good reason to have a healthy fear of God.
 
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DavidPT

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Everlasting fire and punishment and especially punishment is not punishment if none are being punished no? Consistency with "everlasting" is important.


If 2 people each killed someone in this age, and that one of them received life in prison, the other one a death sentence, and that the latter was eventually executed, would you then reason the latter's fate the way you are reasoning things in the quote above? If one received death, how can that not involve punishment and not equal being punished?
 
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If 2 people each killed someone in this age, and that one of them received life in prison, the other one a death sentence, and that the latter was eventually executed, would you then reason the latter's fate the way you are reasoning things in the quote above? If one received death, how can that not involve punishment and not equal being punished?

The difference is one applies to men, the other to angels.
 
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The bible distinctly teaches that immortality is a gift given to the elect only, the bible repeatedly describes the wicked as being destroyed, burned up, and killed (souls included), and the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment.





Point 1:
The bible specifically states more than 34 times throughout scripture that immortality is given as a gift to the righteous only. In Genesis, God casts Adam and Eve out of the garden specifically to protect them from the curse of immortality.

1 John 3:15; Mark 10:17; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:18; John 3:16; John 5:39; John 6:54; John 6:68; John 10:28; John 17:2; John 17:3; Acts 13:48; Romans 2:7; Romans 5:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:19; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:11; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:21; Genesis 3:22; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 22:14; John 4:14; Revelation 21:6; 1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 1 Timothy 6:16





Point 2:
The bible expressly states that the wicked shall be destroyed, slaughtered, and burned to ashes repeatedly throughout scripture. Our example of what will happen to the wicked is Sodom, which is no longer burning.

Mathew 10:28; Romans 6:23; James 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8; Philippians 3:19; Psalm 145:20; Mathew 7:13; Psalm 68:2; John 3:16; John 10:28; Jude 1:7





Point 3:
If the punishment for sin was eternal conscious torment, Jesus must still be dead. Or else his tiny sacrifice of simply death must be meaningless in the face of God’s eternal anger.

Isaiah 53:5-6; John 10:11; 1 Peter 2:24; Mark 10:45; Hebrews 10:9; Romans 3:25; 1 Peter 3:18; Ephesians 5:25; Leviticus 16:10; 1 John 3:16; Deuteronomy 21:22





The supporters of eternal conscious torment use the following passages as core support:
1.And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” - Isaiah 66:22-24

Ellicot’s Commentary for English Readers Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." - “...devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah…Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm…”

The commentators are unsure whether or not the worm is literal or figurative. They seem to take the side of ECT, but admit it isn’t clear either way.

The book of Isaiah is known for being the most poetic, figurative book in the Old Testament.

Also,

Quench - the definition of quench
verb (used with object)

2. to put out or extinguish (fire, flames, etc.).

3. to cool suddenly by plunging into a liquid, as in tempering steel by immersion in water.





2. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” - Daniel 12:1-2

This simply means that their name will forever be held in contempt; that they will never be redeemed. Such as how the people of Sodom are held in contempt even today. 4,000 years later, and most people seem to know that the Sodomites were bad people. Everlasting contempt. The Sodomites will never be redeemed.





3. “It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.” - Mathew 18:6-9

“In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.” – Jude 1:7

Sodom is no longer burning, despite having been burned by this eternal fire.





4. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Mathew 25:31-46

Eternal in result, not in cause. In other words, the death of a human being is eternal (at least if dead for a certain period of time). A dead human will never come back to life. The result of that death lasts forever and ever. But the person isn’t suffering eternal death. The process of death itself is not eternal. It is quick.

Likewise, God’s punishment for the wicked is eternal in result, or in consequence. But certainly not eternal in process, or in action.





5. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” - Revelation 14:9-11

For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation” – Isaiah 34:8-11

How can an owl, raven, pelican, and hedgehog dwell in this land if it is burning forever?

Also, the symbolic imagery of “smoke rising from a destroyed city” is not new: “…and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.” – Genesis 19:28. This imagery is a symbol. The prophet Isaiah is best known for being one of the more poetic writers of the bible. Put two and two together and it makes sense that he would use such imagery and it is perfectly reasonable to believe that he is speaking figuratively when he says the smoke will “go up forever and ever”. In other words, he is speaking of the permanent destruction of the city. While the physical smoke may have dissipated, the memory of it will remain forever and ever. It symbolically will continue to rise.

http://rethinkinghell.com/2017/04/a-primer-on-revelation-149-11/





6. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10; 14-15

This is talking about the Beast, Devil, and False Prophet. Not humans.

http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2015/12/a-primer-on-revelation-2010/





7. “Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." - Luke 16:19-31

If this passage is meant to be taken as a literal picture of the end times, and not as a metaphorical parable, as proponents of eternal conscious torment suggest, a plethora of massive problems arise. For example, how can a man in hell speak to a man in heaven like he was face to face, despite the “great chasm” that separates them? Also, how can all the righteous fit into Abraham’s bosom? Also, how can Heaven be anywhere near perfect if all the screams from people being eternally tortured in hell are clearly audible?

It is clear that this passage, while uncharacteristic of most other parables, is not meant to be taken as a literal picture of the end times.





Conclusion:
The bible distinctly teaches that immortality is a gift given to the elect only, the bible repeatedly describes the wicked as being destroyed, burned up, and killed (souls included), and the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment.

Annihilationism is therefore...biblical.

Amen brother! PREACH THE TRUTH! I am convinced the doctrine of eternal torment is a lie straight from SATAN himself!!
 
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mark kennedy

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Problem is applying the same principal to everlasting life, being consistent with the principal.
All I can tell you is I have been through the proof texts and this is consistent with all but one of the texts. I was like you, I read it and took it at face value, those in hell suffer forever. Speaking of consistency being consistent with the OT treatment of death and the grave is important to. Hell as we understand it in the Old Testament is virtually unknown. The word for Hell, γέεννα (geenna), is introduced by the Lord during the Sermon on the Mount. It is used 12 times in the New Testament, 11 times in the synoptic gospels by the Lord himself. The word is actually the name for a valley where the children of Israel used to toss their infant children as a sacrifice to Molech, the practice was known as making your children pass through the fire.

Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. (Outline of Biblical Usage)​

There are other passages that describe Hell:
  • "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:42)
  • "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46)
  • These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (1Th. 1:9)
  • But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Heb. 10:39
  • These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (2Pet. 2:17)
  • raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (Jude 1:13)
  • He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (Rev. 2:11)
  • Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev. 19:20)
  • The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
  • Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (Rev 20:14)
  • "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)
Notice Rev. 20:10 says they will be tormented forever. Other places the fire is said to burn forever but the appears to be the only place that insists that they are tormented forever, at least in my estimation. I don't see much to argue about here, annihilation is one way of reading the texts in question that one proof text not withstanding. For me the one thing that was intriguing about the subject matter was the connection to Sheol, it's synonymous with the grave.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Rubiks

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To add to what you submitted, there is the following perspective to take into consideration as well.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


This indicates eating of the tree of life gives one the ability to live forever.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


I would think the overcomers are meaning the saved. This verse indicates that Jesus will give the saved to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


This verse indicates what is being meant by the midst of the paradise of God in Revelation 2:7. It's meaning in the new Jerusalem.

I'm pretty positive that those that get cast into the lake of fire, that they won't have access to the tree of life. What then is the source of their eternal life in the lake of fire, assuming eternal conscience torment were the correct position? After all, one can't burn forever consciously without first having the ability to live forever.

No. Genesis 3:22 clearly says Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of life. Hence why God sent them out of the Garden of Eden in the next verse.

Here is the NRSV (genesis 3:22-23):
Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.
 
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DavidPT

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No. Genesis 3:22 clearly says Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of life. Hence why God sent them out of the Garden of Eden in the next verse.

Here is the NRSV (genesis 3:22-23):
Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

It doesn't matter whether or not Adam and Eve ate of the tree of life. That is irrelevant, yet I tend to think they did eat of it, and that it was the continual eating of it that allowed one to live forever. And once the tree was blocked, it was therefore impossible to live for forever at that point.

According to Revelation 22, which is within eternity context, here's what the following tells us about this same tree.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


If one only needs to eat of it one time in order to be immortal, why then does this same tree, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month, need to do this for all eternity? Obviously, folks will be eating of it throughout eternity. But why though? And humans cast into the LOF, how can they possibly have access to this same tree of life?
 
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It is God that gives life and takes it. In other words, if a soul is made eternal it is God that makes it eternal, if a soul is destroyed likewise it is God that makes it temporal. And that is why I think the second "death" for humans is destruction of the soul, and good reason to have a healthy fear of God.
According to the language in Genesis, the soul is a byproduct of a living body. (Body+breath=living creature=soul)

It is a state of being, synomous with consciousness, or LIFE...

Death is a state of being as well, it is like unconsciousness but where one does not return and the body is inanimate.. Death itself is the destruction of the soul (consciousness)...

People that teach that death is not a real state of being are teaching pagan superstition and fables instead of understanding the true meaning of their own fables...

You cannot be conscious after death because they are both states of being...

Myths/allegories about your spirit descending into hades or into the heavens is about how one's life impacts the psyche/spirit of the nation, age, or other hive. Today psychologists and anthtopoligists refer to the same understanding of how ones 'soul' (influences, ideas, character, life, and social interactions) influences and is influenced by the various spiritual beings (unbeknownst to themselves) as race memory and memetics.
 
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Der Alte

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So we have a verse that we have reason to fear having our bodies and souls destroyed, many verses telling us that the wicked will be killed, destroyed, and burned up, and a TON of verses telling us the eternal life is a gift only for the righteous.
But zero verses that say that a man's soul or spirit is inherently immortal. ZERO.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.


10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.


[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.


Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.


22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Then in the NT we have the story of a dead man in Hades feeling pain, calling out to father Abraham for a little water to cool his tongue
 
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Der Alte

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Don't you find it ludicrous for Jesus to have said ----And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul---if God Himself is unable to kill the soul? Why even bring that up if it's not anything God is capable of doing? If there is no such thing as killing the soul, why did Jesus bring up something that's not possible? Some might argue that it's indeed possible for God to kill the soul, except that He doesn't and won't. Once again, assuming that's the case, why even bring up the possibility if it's never going to happen ever? If killing the body is meaning literally, it would be cherry picking to not take the killing of the soul literally as well.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill(apokteino) the body, but are not able to kill(apokteino) the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy(apollumi) both soul and body in hell.
Destroy and kill in that verse, though not the same Greek word, are still meaning the same thing, that being to kill. And the following passage proves destroy can in some contexts mean to kill.
Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy(apollumi) him.
This verse says---for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. To destroy Him wasn't meaning to torment Him, it was clearly meaning to kill Him
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You quoted my post but you evidently did not read it. Here it is again.
Scripture does NOT say God "will" destroy, it says God is "able" to destroy the body and soul. God created man therefore He can destroy them. I do not know of a single verse which says God has or will destroy any soul.
Matthew 10:28
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
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Sanoy

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Problem is applying the same principal to everlasting life, being consistent with the principal.

I thought that this was a solid rebuttal to the annihilation view that should be addressed so if I fail at that I hope someone else will take it up.

______________________________________________________________________________

Here is the verse in question Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

First I would like to admit that the verse read plainly agrees with the ECT view. However I would like to make the case that it agrees with the Annihilation view more at best, and at least that it does not logically contradict the Annihilation view.

First lets look at this word "but" which I have colored in blue. The word in Greek is "de" meaning "on the other hand" which orients the later half of the verse in contrast with the first half of the verse. So we should look for some parallel contrast between eternal life and eternal punishment. If we look at this as a contrasting difference we should imagine eternal punishment as including death, just as eternal life includes life.

The next thing to tackle is whether or not eternal punishment means eternal suffering. It can, but not necessarily. It is entirely dependent on what the punishment is. If I punish you to be eternally wounded and healed then yes that is eternal suffering. But if your punishment is a painful death then I have also punished you with an eternal punishment. Death is eternal, you are not coming back. The punishment of death remains eternally for every state of affairs where one remains dead.

Now lets see if the word used here in Matthew 25:46 for punishment correlates at all with the word used in Revelation 20:10 for the eternal suffering of the beast and his group. The word for punishment in Matthew is Kolasis meaning a punishment, but could include torment per strongs. The word used in Revelation for torment is Basanizo which means torture or torment. Now it's certainly possible that Matthew chose Kolasis for torture, but by doing so he is choosing a broader word for a specific concept. But I think the better explanation is that he is choosing a broader word because he wished to convey a sentence of death that includes some suffering given the process of that death.

So I think we have a solid case that there is no logical conflict between Annhilation and Matthew 25:46 and I think there is a stronger case given the grammar and vocabulary that this passage refers to a painful punishment of death rather than eternal torment which should rather be written as Basanizo rather than Kolasis.
 
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