Paul vs James who is right?

[Wordkeeper]

Not unless you claim to be Abraham. But thanks anyway.

bugkiller

You're welcome. Here's some more comprehensive information.

The writings of the Jewish sages tell us that Abraham found living in his father's house very oppressive, because Terah was an idol manufacturer. He called out to God for deliverance and God brought him out of his father's house. God put him in dangerous situations and rescued him. After seeing God's steadfast provision and protection, Abraham stopped looking out for himself and allowed God to do that job, freeing him to obey whatever God commanded, knowing he would ultimately be blessed with the heavenly kingdom with earthly things added on to him.

Those of us who don't take the easy way out, do not live carnally, hate the darkness, are not disobedient to God's voice, grope for him because we know that we are aliens in Adam, long to be in the New Adam. God is not ashamed to be called our God, and has built a new Adam, a holy city for us to reach rest in, and that rest is in Christ.

If you are uncomfortable in the old man, as Paul describes him in Romans 7, then you have Abraham as your father.

Then you will step through the Way, walk in the footsteps that Abraham, Joshua, and, to fulfill all righteousness, Christ walked.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Pardon me. If works are not proof, why is James saying they are?

bugkiller

Really? So, James is all about establishing ones street cred with other Christians?

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Would you kindly list bout ten or so of your works?

bugkiller

Would you? Am I supposed to be boastful of my works to be done before men? Am I supposed to give grandiosely?

Looks to me like you're one of those who is happy sit on his butt and "be saved" without doing a single thing Christ has told us to also do.

 

[Sam91]

Really? So, James is all about establishing ones street cred with other Christians?

Or a warning to oneself that things are not right if your faith isn't turning you into a light shining towards others. Showing the love of Christ to others.

 

[Sam91]

Will We Be Finally ‘Saved’ by Faith Alone? (Episode 1166) #AskPastorJohn Will We Be Finally ‘Saved’ by Faith Alone?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Will We Be Finally ‘Saved’ by Faith Alone? (Episode 1166) #AskPastorJohn Will We Be Finally ‘Saved’ by Faith Alone?

Ephesians 2.8-9 is followed by Ephesians 2.10.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hi Sam,
I really don’t understand your question, but the Bible is a book about the redemptive program for ISRAEL. God in his kindness has made a provision for gentiles to be saved beginning with the Apostle Paul in Acts Ch 9 and his epistles (Romans-Philemon) apply to us . . TODAY.

The whole bible is FOR you, but the whole bible is not TO YOU.

Some today teach that the Jews had a different gospel for salvation than the gentiles, and that Paul came along and taught the gospel of grace and the Jews were still not under that gospel.

Some misunderstand statements like this

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;"

The Jews had the same gospel but they were coming out of the old covenant and it was ready to vanish and fade away and decay. It took time for them to come out and reform things. This was called the time of reformation for them and certain things were imposed upon them ( not the Gentiles) until the time of reformation. Part of the struggle we see in certan books was the Jews still trying to bring the Gentiles under that law and old covenant. It would not make sense to bring Gentiles under the law and old covenant that was fading away in its ministration to the Jews then tell them to come out of it later.

Not sure if you are implying this error. But some do teach that there are different gospels for different groups. But the same gospel was for all Jew and Gentile as scripture clearly says

Romans 1:16 KJV
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."


Acts 15:7-11 KJV)
"Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

1 Corinthians 15:1-11 KJV
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they [the other apostles who preached this gospel I declare unto you], so we preach [we being Paul and the other aposltes, we preach the same gospel], and so ye believed [the same gospel]."

Yes, James was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, But what he wrote applies to all believers. James was not bringing any to be bound up under the law or the old covenant.

we know as I said that the old covenant was fading way and the jews we in the time of transition in Acts or the time of reformation. The Jews were still zealous of the law many many years after Christ death in Acts 21 as we read and going into the temple and sacrificing animals etc and zealous of the law.

But consider these verses as they apply to the Jews in their time of reformation

Hebrews 8:13 KJV
"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (but it hadn't vanished away yet even when the book of hebrews was written)

Hebrews 9:8-10 KJV
"8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Will We Be Finally ‘Saved’ by Faith Alone? (Episode 1166) #AskPastorJohn Will We Be Finally ‘Saved’ by Faith Alone?

we are saved by grace..........through faith

it is the grace that saves

Ephesians 2:5
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Titus 2:11
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Acts 15:11 KJV
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

 

[Almost there]

I see it this way: I can tell how much faith a person has in their brakes by how fast they drive.

If you say you have faith in a chair but, oddly, you never are willing to sit in it, do you really have faith in the chair, or do you just say you do?

Faith without works is dead in that your unwillingness to act on your faith demonstrates the faith doesn't exist.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I see it this way: I can tell how much faith a person has in their brakes by how fast they drive.

If you say you have faith in a chair but, oddly, you never are willing to sit in it, do you really have faith in the chair, or do you just say you do?

Faith without works is dead in that your unwillingness to act on your faith demonstrates the faith doesn't exist.

The works that save us are God's works on the cross through Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection and God's work in believers to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work if we abide ( continue, dwell, remain) in Christ through faith.

 

[AFrazier]

we are saved by grace..........through faith

it is the grace that saves

Ephesians 2:5
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Titus 2:11
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Acts 15:11 KJV
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith. And faith worketh by love. If you don't have love for others, then you don't have love for God. Your faith is a lie. And if your faith is a lie, and faith is the catalyst for obtaining grace, then you do not receive the grace to complement the dead faith.

It all goes hand in hand, and the only reason there is confusion on this subject is that people want to excuse their complacency, just as they want to excuse their sin.

 

[Almost there]

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith. And faith worketh by love. If you don't have love for others, then you don't have love for God. Your faith is a lie. And if your faith is a lie, and faith is the catalyst for obtaining grace, then you do not receive the grace to complement the dead faith.

It all goes hand in hand, and the only reason there is confusion on this subject is that people want to excuse their complacency, just as they want to excuse their sin.

And not to put too fine a point on it, I see love as both an action and a decision, as opposed to an emotional response. It's why I'm a huge fan of "tough love".

Remember that couple that sold "everything" and bought a sailboat, and promptly sank it, without insurance? Then a doctor donated (sold for $1) a bigger sail boat. Was that an act of love, or an act of wanting to feel good for "helping" someone? Did it help them? They are inexperienced sailors that, fortunately, sank where they can easily be rescued. With the new boat, they can now get into the middle of the Atlantic and get sunk by a whale or storm. And there will likely be no rescue if this happens.

That was long winded. My point is that showing love can be many things, and often it doesn't look like love, but it is.

Is it an act of "love" when you donate a bunch of stuff to Goodwill that you would have otherwise thrown away - and then take the tax deduction?

Or is it an act of love if, right in the middle of your favorite TV show or ball game, a friend stops by, in great distress over his marriage, and you turn off the set and listen and pray with him/her?

And to be clear, I've been guilty of the good, the bad and the ugly in this post at one time or another.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is important to understand that we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ. If I am trusting in my works to save me to any extent, my faith is not in Jesus but in me; I am trying to save myself by what I do. No doubt, if I put my faith and trust in Christ it will enact an inward change that affects my behaviour on the outside. But I must not trust my outward behaviour as being salvational. Christ will say, "I never knew you," to many who trusted in their works to save them. Surprised, they will say, Didn't we cast out demons in your name? Didn't we prophesy in your name? And, Didn't we do many wonderful works in your name? (Matthew 7:21-23). They trusted in their works and were workers of iniquity on the side. Real faith in Christ means I am no longer a worker of iniquity, He has changed me from the inside out through faith alone in Him, so that out of that faith stems the fruit of love, which is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18).

 

[bugkiller]

You're welcome. Here's some more comprehensive information.

The writings of the Jewish sages tell us that Abraham found living in his father's house very oppressive, because Terah was an idol manufacturer. He called out to God for deliverance and God brought him out of his father's house. God put him in dangerous situations and rescued him. After seeing God's steadfast provision and protection, Abraham stopped looking out for himself and allowed God to do that job, freeing him to obey whatever God commanded, knowing he would ultimately be blessed with the heavenly kingdom with earthly things added on to him.

Those of us who don't take the easy way out, do not live carnally, hate the darkness, are not disobedient to God's voice, grope for him because we know that we are aliens in Adam, long to be in the New Adam. God is not ashamed to be called our God, and has built a new Adam, a holy city for us to reach rest in, and that rest is in Christ.

If you are uncomfortable in the old man, as Paul describes him in Romans 7, then you have Abraham as your father.

Then you will step through the Way, walk in the footsteps that Abraham, Joshua, and, to fulfill all righteousness, Christ walked.

Where do you get this information?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Would you? Am I supposed to be boastful of my works to be done before men? Am I supposed to give grandiosely?

Looks to me like you're one of those who is happy sit on his butt and "be saved" without doing a single thing Christ has told us to also do.

Which are...

And I have no idea why you are being nasty. You have no idea who I am or what I do. I do not promote works in relation getting or maintaining my salvation. I ask others here who are requiring this to identify some of them for us to understand exactly what they are talking about.

bugkiller

 

[Wordkeeper]

It is important to understand that we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

But the Bible says that faith without works cannot save:

James 2
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous.

2 Corinthians 5:9,10
9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

If I am trusting in my works to save me to any extent, my faith is not in Jesus but in me; I am trying to save myself by what I do.

The believer is not trying to save himself by dependence on self effort but by the Holy Spirit. If we pray to God to remove our sinful habits, He will do so. In addition, God's grace is sufficient to make us perfect.

2 Corinthians 12:9
9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

No doubt, if I put my faith and trust in Christ it will enact an inward change that affects my behaviour on the outside. But I must not trust my outward behaviour as being salvational. Christ will say, "I never knew you," to many who trusted in their works to save them. Surprised, they will say, Didn't we cast out demons in your name? Didn't we prophesy in your name? And, Didn't we do many wonderful works in your name? (Matthew 7:21-23). They trusted in their works and were workers of iniquity on the side. Real faith in Christ means I am no longer a worker of iniquity, He has changed me from the inside out through faith alone in Him, so that out of that faith stems the fruit of love, which is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18).

Actually, the fault of the false believers in Matthew 7 was that they did not gather. If a person proclaims a gospel and it does not result in making disciples of its listeners, then they will be cast out.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Where do you get this information?

bugkiller

Everyone thinks we get revelation from the Bible, but there was no Bible in the wilderness. That's why Christ said it was not Moses who gave the children of Israel bread, but our Father who gives the true bread from heaven. God taught Israel that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from His mouth.

God created calamity, depriving Israel of food, water, safety from enemies, and then He saved, to teach that serving Him was better than serving Egypt. He could give them the Kingdom, the ability to bless the world, and add earthly blessings on to that. These teachings are called "water from the Rock". This water can cleanse, but only if you believe. Baptism is asking for water from the Rock. Peter and Judas asked for baptism, they were baptised into Christ through water and the cloud, both ate the same spiritual food, drank the same spiritual drink, but it did not benefit Judas. Not everyone is cleansed. Those who are cleansed only need feet to be washed. Teachings to be boiled down, clarified, put in the right context. What is cleansed? Those who agree that serving mammon is not serving God. Check this view in the Ananias, Simon Magus incident.

That's why Jesus said He only said what the Father said. No more no less. And God gave Him the Kingdom, the power of the finger of God was displayed, and all other things were added to Him.

Its also why Christ taught us to pray that we receive bread everyday. If our earthly fathers can give us God things, will not our Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?

He can even tell you if what you received is real bread or just the pizza from last night talking.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Wordkeeper, you are missing the point. You also picked apart my statements instead of taking the whole of my post as an entire statement, which is one of my pet peeves (but I forgive you) and also a dishonest way of dealing with things. Because I qualify my statements, so to isolate my statements without addressing the way I qualify them is to not address what I am really saying by my post. re #236 by @Wordkeeper which was in response to #234 by me, @justbyfaith.

 

[Wordkeeper]

@Wordkeeper, you are missing the point. You also picked apart my statements instead of taking the whole of my post as an entire statement, which is one of my pet peeves (but I forgive you) and also a dishonest way of dealing with things. Because I qualify my statements, so to isolate my statements without addressing the way I qualify them is to not address what I am really saying by my post. re #236

You were quoting out of context. I corrected the context

 

[justbyfaith]

You were quoting out of context. I corrected the context

No you didn't, and no I wasn't.