Pagan holidays mixing with Christian ones

[Eloy Craft]

Elaine Pagel is not a Christian authority.

Correct. Authority isn't scholarship. She is a christian scholar. They come in wide varieties.

Wow she isn't, is she? She seems to base her understanding of early Christianity on the Gnostics (which is a mistake), and further has written about Satan being merely a late "creation" of the Church.

I can't say as I would find her trustworthy in the "little things" such as why the Church worshipped early in the day, when she isn't faithful in the big ones. I wonder what her personal beliefs - if any - even are.

I don't agree with all of her conclusions. But it is not a reach to think that early Christians getting up in the morning before work celebrating the Risen Lord, would make the connection that the sun they see rising each morning is like Jesus rising . Christ is Risen. Creation does sing His praises no?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Scholarship depends on information from just about any source to draw conclusions.

What source does she use?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Scholarship depends on information from just about any source to draw conclusions.

I am speechless as to how I ought reply.

 

[prodromos]

But it is not a reach to think that early Christians getting up in the morning before work celebrating the Risen Lord, would make the connection that the sun they see rising each morning is like Jesus rising.

So you admit that the primary sources don't make the claim that early Christians made the connection between the sun rising each day and Christ rising from the dead. It is simply a conclusion that Elaine Pagel has drawn, her own opinion.
I know that early Christians did not make the connection because I have read extensively what was written by the early Christians and such a view is notably absent, yet you earlier posted as if it was a fact.

We know from all the earliest recordings that Christians universally gathered to worship on Sunday, which they referred to as the Lord's day and also as the Eighth day. We also know that until the changes wrought by Emperor Constantine, Sunday was the first of six working days in the 7 day week. We can conclude therefore that they gathered early in the morning for worship because they all subsequently had to go to work.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Correct. Authority isn't scholarship. She is a christian scholar. They come in wide varieties.

I don't agree with all of her conclusions. But it is not a reach to think that early Christians getting up in the morning before work celebrating the Risen Lord, would make the connection that the sun they see rising each morning is like Jesus rising . Christ is Risen. Creation does sing His praises no?

But it would seem you (or some) are arguing an actual connection based on nothing more than a supposition made by someone who got her information primarily by relying on dubious sources?

As prodromos said - Sunday was the first day of the work week. That is equally plausible - more so really. We still have services sometimes very early in the morning on work days - so people who must work can attend the service first. I don't know whether there are early documents mentioning the same. But we still do it. And nothing to do with worshipping as the sun rises.

I'm not looking to argue with you. I just find it not a good point to use as part of an argument. But I'll step out of this point.

 

[Radagast]

you wouldn't have to look hard to see the obelisk sitting in the center of a sun wheel in St. Peters square.

"Sun wheel"? What kind of nonsense is this?

 

[Radagast]

Correct. Authority isn't scholarship. She is a christian scholar.

She is a scholar. That doesn't mean her opinions are correct. And I believe that she is an ex-Christian.

 

[Eloy Craft]

She is a scholar. That doesn't mean her opinions are correct. And I believe that she is an ex-Christian.

I agree. I read author's of all persuasions. Reading their research and how they arrived at their conclusions gives me an opportunity to look at what they looked at and arrive at my own conclusion.

 

[Eloy Craft]

But it would seem you (or some) are arguing an actual connection based on nothing more than a supposition made by someone who got her information primarily by relying on dubious sources?

As prodromos said - Sunday was the first day of the work week. That is equally plausible - more so really. We still have services sometimes very early in the morning on work days - so people who must work can attend the service first. I don't know whether there are early documents mentioning the same. But we still do it. And nothing to do with worshipping as the sun rises.

I'm not looking to argue with you. I just find it not a good point to use as part of an argument. But I'll step out of this point.

As long as a scholar is open with their research it's an opportunity to take advantage of and make my own conclusion. As I understand the way the Holy Spirit leads the faithful into truth, it was no accident that the most convenient time for early Christians to worship would also contain within it the True meaning and the most holy time to worship. Providence I believe surrounded the work of the early Church. Anastasia, I didn't mean to be harsh in my posts earlier. I shouldn't have responded while I was getting ready for work. I was too hasty and imprecise with my words. I'm sorry about that.

 

[Eloy Craft]

So you admit that the primary sources don't make the claim that early Christians made the connection between the sun rising each day and Christ rising from the dead. It is simply a conclusion that Elaine Pagel has drawn, her own opinion.

I can just tell you that she is good at including the various research items that she draws her conclusion from and I agreed. I'm mature enough in my faith to distinguish heretical thinking in the text and draw my own conclusions. Sometimes the reasoning goes in a good and fresh direction before it branches into the twist particular to the author.

I know that early Christians did not make the connection because I have read extensively what was written by the early Christians and such a view is notably absent, yet you earlier posted as if it was a fact.

I'm sorry prodomos, you can't really say you know that just because you haven't read it somewhere yourself. I believe what I wrote. That's how I wrote it. Even if you were a scholar I would expect to know how you arrive at thinking your conclusion is irrefutable. One reason I believe it's true is because the sun symbol made it's way onto sacred liturgical vessels used by the community that has surrounded Jesus since the beginning. I believe both, Orthodox and Latin Churches are that community.

 

[HARK!]

Of course the Jewish Pascha is not the Christian Pascha. The former is the shadow which is fulfilled in the latter. As Christians, we were not delivered out of slavery to Egypt. Through Christ the Lamb's death and resurrection, we who are united to Him are delivered out of slavery to sin and death. That is why the Church made the decision to celebrate the Christian Pascha apart from the Jewish Pascha, so there would be no confusion between the shadow and it's fulfillment.

It's not the Jewish Pesach, nor the Christian Pesach. It's Yahweh's Pesach.

The Church decided? Circe?

What would Yahshua do? He said that nothing would pass from the law, before heaven and earth passed away. What did his disciples do? They kept the Moedim. What did Yahweh have to say about it? After all Pesach is HIS Moedim. Wouldn't HE have the final word? Perhaps you missed the last word of this scripture:


(CLV) Lv 23:5
In the first month on the fourteenth day of the month between the evening hours is the passover to Yahweh

“And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD {Yahweh} throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:14)

 

[HARK!]

Are you worried about the celebrations, or are you concerned with what we commemorate? While I know Catholic parishes that have Easter Egg hunts after the last Easter Mass, what you must know is what we celebrate-the Resurrection of Jesus, our Lord. And "Easter" comes from old English "Oestre".

http://biblehub.com/niv/deuteronomy/12.htm

Easter (n.)
Old English Easterdæg, from Eastre (Northumbrian Eostre), from Proto-Germanic *austron-, "dawn," also the name of a goddess of fertility and spring, perhaps originally of sunrise, whose feast was celebrated at the spring equinox, from *aust- "east, toward the sunrise" (compare east), from PIE root *aus- (1) "to shine," especially of the dawn.

easter | Origin and meaning of the name easter by Online Etymology Dictionary



Deuteronomy 12:31
New International Version
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods

Asherah
אֲשֵׁרָה‬ Goddess of motherhood and fertility
Lady of the Sea
Asherah - Wikipedia

(CLV) Dt 12:3
You will tear down their altars and break their monuments; their Asherah poles you shall burn with fire, and the carvings of their elohim you shall hack down; thus you will destroy their name from that place.

 

[HARK!]

I believe that she is an ex-Christian.

Is that your opinion?

 

[prodromos]

It's not the Jewish Pesach, nor the Christian Pesach. It's Yahweh's Pesach.

The angel sparing the Jews while taking the firstborn of the Egyptians just prior to the exodus is not the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. We Christians celebrate the latter, the Jews celebrate the former.

The Church decided? Circe?

First Ecumenical Council in 325
Paschalion - OrthodoxWiki

What would Yahshua do? He said that nothing would pass from the law, before heaven and earth passed away. What did his disciples do? They kept the Moedim. What did Yahweh have to say about it? After all Pesach is HIS Moedim. Wouldn't HE have the final word? Perhaps you missed the last word of this scripture:


(CLV) Lv 23:5
In the first month on the fourteenth day of the month between the evening hours is the passover to Yahweh

“And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD {Yahweh} throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER.” (Exodus 12:14)

I am not a Jew.
Acts 15:28-29
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

 

[prodromos]

One reason I believe it's true is because the sun symbol made it's way onto sacred liturgical vessels used by the community that has surrounded Jesus since the beginning. I believe both, Orthodox and Latin Churches are that community.

Orthodox symbols represent the uncreated light that shone forth from Christ when He was transfigured on Mt Tabor. I expect the Catholics are the same. It isn't a sun symbol. Never was.

 

[Radagast]

Is that your opinion?

Based on her personal account of leaving the Church, yes.

 

[Radagast]

Asherah
אֲשֵׁרָה‬ Goddess of motherhood and fertility
Lady of the Sea
Asherah - Wikipedia

Asherah has nothing whatsoever to do with Easter.

And, like I said, I don't think anyone in Europe ever worshipped a goddess called Ēostre. Apart from one unreliable mention by Bede, there is no evidence of it.

The Germanic fertility goddess was in fact Frigg/Freyja, after whom Friday is named.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Orthodox symbols represent the uncreated light that shone forth from Christ when He was transfigured on Mt Tabor. I expect the Catholics are the same. It isn't a sun symbol. Never was.

Why do you believe that is uncreated light?



John 1-14
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

Grace and truth are characteristics of a human soul in a glorified state. Power and judgement characterizes Divine Glory. That is the Glory the Father gives back to Him when He sits at His right hand again. Could the Glory seen at the Transfiguration be Jesus' Divine Glory that He emptied Himself of to become Man?
In the light of the Transfiguration the most high heaven before the Resurrection becomes visible. That's where Moses and Elijah are and why the Cross to come is the subject of their conversation with Jesus. It's also why the disciples could know that two men they have never seen before are Moses and Elijah. They saw the truth of them because they saw them in light full of grace and truth.

The heaven that Christ Crucified opens up hadn't been opened up yet. That is, the Transfiguration happened before Christ opened the highest heaven. According to the Scriptures.

 

[prodromos]

Easter (n.)
Old English Easterdæg, from Eastre (Northumbrian Eostre), from Proto-Germanic *austron-, "dawn," also the name of a goddess of fertility and spring, perhaps originally of sunrise, whose feast was celebrated at the spring equinox, from *aust- "east, toward the sunrise" (compare east), from PIE root *aus- (1) "to shine," especially of the dawn.

easter | Origin and meaning of the name easter by Online Etymology Dictionary

It's just as likely that it is derived from the Old Teutonic German for "resurrection. They all share the same root.

 

[prodromos]

Why do you believe that is uncreated light?

What do you think it is?