Why don't I see love from many American Christians?

[zephcom]

That's irrelevant. Thats like pointing out God didn't give Jesus a house. So apparently we are not supposed to have houses either. Or God didn't give Jesus a donkey or boat or whatever and so we can't have that either. Thats just silly and is not at all biblical. Take a look at the parable of the talents. God gives differing amounts to different people. And as he said, to whom.much is given, much is expected. God often in scripture rewarded the faithful with things. He didn't do it to everyone, but he did do it.

It's none of our business as to the motives of a mans heart.

Perhaps it is irrelevant. But that doesn't keep me from wondering why God didn't bless Jesus with money. Perhaps this is the reason why:

Matthew 6:19-21:

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

That was Jesus preaching in His Sermon on the Mount. And since Jesus' teachings come directly from the Father, it seems unlikely God would be 'blessing' anyone with money.

In fact, if one searches out keywords like wealth and riches in the New Testament, it starts to look like money isn't considered a blessing at all.

 

[Neogaia777]

Perhaps it is irrelevant. But that doesn't keep me from wondering why God didn't bless Jesus with money. Perhaps this is the reason why:

Matthew 6:19-21:

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

That was Jesus preaching in His Sermon on the Mount. And since Jesus' teachings come directly from the Father, it seems unlikely God would be 'blessing' anyone with money.

In fact, if one searches out keywords like wealth and riches in the New Testament, it starts to look like money isn't considered a blessing at all.

He simply did not need to, nor want to, more than likely, he simply didn't need to, he knew he worth more than a sparrow... That's the kind of faith he had, he knew he would be taken care of by his Father... He may have even saw riches, in the sense of money, or gold, as more of a curse or burden, who knows... But a lack of faith, one can have more faith in the money and riches than in God, and some would say that is weak faith, and not the kind of faith that mature and seasoned NT followers were to have (back then)...

God Bless!

 

[Par5]

I think a lot of people misunderstand what it means to cast judgment on someone. It seems as if we are not allowed to disagree or have a different opinion than you without it being seen as being judgmental.

Since when is love about accepting or being okay with EVERYTHING everyone does? If you knew your friend was about to harm themselves, would you not speak up? Out of love for that person, you would tell them what they're doing is wrong and will only hurt them.

As Christians, we have a perspective of sin being harmful to others. Out of love, Jesus told the woman at the well, who had slept with 5 men, that she had five husbands and to sin no more. He judged the rich young ruler for his heart. He called the ruling religious leaders hypocrites and a brood of snakes. The bible says to judge righteously.

I was very sad the day the U.S. accepted gay marriage as the law of the land. That doesn't mean I don't love my lesbian friends and family members. It doesn't mean that I don't understand who they are, what they do, and why they do it. I've read up on it. But I also know what they're doing is wrong and harmful for themselves and has eternal consequences.

I know you are not a Christian, so you're probably not interested in watching this, but this is one of my favorite illustrations. It's worth a watch.

I am not a Christian either, but I did watch the video. Seems to me that the guy thinks we should live our lives as one big guilt trip. Why shouldn't people enjoy the fruits of their labour? What is wrong with people setting themselves a goal in this life and working hard to achieve it?
If he finds life such an obstacle to him achieving his goal of "eternal life", why does he not simply jump off a high building and fast track himself to his "reward"?
I find it rather depressing that some people seem to place so little value on the life we all have.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying life. I'm not talking about some crazy hedonic lifestyle. We are only here for a relatively short time, but a lot of good can be achieved in that short time and there is nothing wrong with enjoying things that give us and others pleasure and happiness.
You said that some of your lesbian friends and family members are doing things that will have eternal consequences. Such as what? Can you produce one piece of evidence of someone telling you the consequence they are suffering because of their "wrongdoing" when they were alive? Better still, can you produce one piece of evidence of someone telling you how wonderful the "reward" is they are now enjoying because of the kind of life they lived?
Life is for living and how you live it is important, but burdening yourself with guilt at every imagined transgression and going through life believing some others are not good enough to achieve this "reward" is definitely not the way to live it.

 

[zephcom]

He simply did not need to, nor want to, more than likely, he simply didn't need to, he knew he worth more than a sparrow... That's the kind of faith he had, he knew he would be taken care of by his Father... He may have even saw riches, in the sense of money, or gold, as more of a curse or burden, who knows... But a lack of faith, one can have more faith in the money and riches than in God, and some would say that is weak faith, and not the kind of faith that mature and seasoned NT followers were to have (back then)...

God Bless!

I noticed that you added that little part at the end...(back then). Does that mean mature and seasoned NT followers now don't need that kind of faith?

I really think you have hit on something with the concept that Jesus knew He would be taken care of by His Father. There is no doubt in my mind that is the way the Bible portrays Jesus...as someone who totally and completed trusted God with every aspect of His life up to and including His death. And I suspect that is the faith that He expected from His followers.

Remember that He sent His Apostles out to teach about Him and required they take no money or supplies. They were to live on the generousness of others and if they found no one to take them in and feed them in a town, they were to move on to the next town.

I really think the idea that God 'blesses' some people with money is just an attempt to make a person's wealth in this realm appear to be 'okay' within a religion which started out as considering physical realm wealth as worthless.

 

[Tatilina]

If this is considered an offensive question, then please delete, but I keep being confused by the version of Christianity I see from many conservative Americans. Growing up in the UK, my experience of Christians was of loving, endlessly forgiving and gentle people who always seemed to be striving to achieve their own self-admittedly flawed version of the the message Jesus gave them. They didn't judge, they always forgave, and they were just basically better people than most of us. I couldn't be a Christian because I don't believe in god, but I always had huge respect for these gentle, meek people who embodied something I instinctively knew was beautiful. The level of commitment and sacrifice to something they felt was greater than them was truly awe inspiring, despite me not believing.

Then I see so many American 'evangelicals' or conservative Christians who seem to spent their lives judging others, attacking their perceived enemies and embodying a message that seems to revolve around a love of wealth, power and hostility towards those who are weak and needy. I don't get it. I thought the whole message of Jesus was that to embrace the weakest and most vulnerable was the closest path to god?

I've read the bible and it doesn't seem like a complex message. Turn the other cheek, embrace those in need and don't hold yourself above anyone, especially the most humble. Yet I see people quoting random passages and twisting them to somehow say its ok to support violence or war, aspire to prosperity and judge others for their sins rather than leave it to god. It confuses me.

Am I missing something? Is Jesus not a messenger of peace and humility and an advocate for the poor and needy? How did the message of a man who bathed lepers and said "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" end up being used to advocate for wealth creation and for pastors to collect money to buy private jets while the poorest in society go homeless and hungry, or die from lack of healthcare?

How did the message of a man who said "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them" somehow end up being used to support gun ownership, a strong military and the use of violence against others?

Seriously, can someone explain this stuff to me please, because it leaves me dazed and confused.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who has noticed. I think the enemy has pounded into our minds that being even a tad emotional is a bad thing when it’s not and I think that is the main root of the problem. When I get into praise and worship with God, he sets my heart in fire and gives me stength and energy to get my worship on. Sometimes I need to do this because after a week of being out in the cold life draining world out there, the only way to be properly refreshed is by Christ. Also politics = Satan. Just saying.

 

[Neogaia777]

I noticed that you added that little part at the end...(back then). Does that mean mature and seasoned NT followers now don't need that kind of faith?

I really think you have hit on something with the concept that Jesus knew He would be taken care of by His Father. There is no doubt in my mind that is the way the Bible portrays Jesus...as someone who totally and completed trusted God with every aspect of His life up to and including His death. And I suspect that is the faith that He expected from His followers.

Remember that He sent His Apostles out to teach about Him and required they take no money or supplies. They were to live on the generousness of others and if they found no one to take them in and feed them in a town, they were to move on to the next town.

I really think the idea that God 'blesses' some people with money is just an attempt to make a person's wealth in this realm appear to be 'okay' within a religion which started out as considering physical realm wealth as worthless.

That did change though (Luke 22:35-36)...

But, the apostles did have money in common that they could and probably did use...?

God Bless!

 

[Nithavela]

If God's people fail to convey that fact, the lost will derive a false sense of security in their fallen state. (Remember, Noah invited everyone to join him on the ark, but there were no takers, and he didn't force them aboard.)

Would you mind telling us where you derive this information from? This seems to be missing form my bible.

 

[Sabertooth]

Would you mind telling us where you derive this information from? This seems to be missing form my bible.

It appears that you are right, but it is inferred.

 

[Nithavela]

It appears that you are right, but it is inferred.

I find that doubtfull. God told Noah that he planned to kill the whole world except for his family and the animals, giving him a very concise list on who and what to put on the boat. So if Noah really was blameless, he wouldn't have gone against his god. Also, there are multiple instances where God decides on a similiar course of actions, and the bible never fails to mention when someone bargains with god or preaches or tries to find good people.

This sounds to me like typical adding to the bible to make it more palatable for modern readers.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

If this is considered an offensive question, then please delete, but I keep being confused by the version of Christianity I see from many conservative Americans. Growing up in the UK, my experience of Christians was of loving, endlessly forgiving and gentle people who always seemed to be striving to achieve their own self-admittedly flawed version of the the message Jesus gave them. They didn't judge, they always forgave, and they were just basically better people than most of us. I couldn't be a Christian because I don't believe in god, but I always had huge respect for these gentle, meek people who embodied something I instinctively knew was beautiful. The level of commitment and sacrifice to something they felt was greater than them was truly awe inspiring, despite me not believing.

Then I see so many American 'evangelicals' or conservative Christians who seem to spent their lives judging others, attacking their perceived enemies and embodying a message that seems to revolve around a love of wealth, power and hostility towards those who are weak and needy. I don't get it. I thought the whole message of Jesus was that to embrace the weakest and most vulnerable was the closest path to god?

I've read the bible and it doesn't seem like a complex message. Turn the other cheek, embrace those in need and don't hold yourself above anyone, especially the most humble. Yet I see people quoting random passages and twisting them to somehow say its ok to support violence or war, aspire to prosperity and judge others for their sins rather than leave it to god. It confuses me.

Am I missing something? Is Jesus not a messenger of peace and humility and an advocate for the poor and needy? How did the message of a man who bathed lepers and said "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" end up being used to advocate for wealth creation and for pastors to collect money to buy private jets while the poorest in society go homeless and hungry, or die from lack of healthcare?

How did the message of a man who said "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them" somehow end up being used to support gun ownership, a strong military and the use of violence against others?

Seriously, can someone explain this stuff to me please, because it leaves me dazed and confused.

The strong delusion.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Would you mind telling us where you derive this information from? This seems to be missing form my bible.

It is in apocryphal libraries.

Most of the canon is cut and pasted from those "evil" books into the compilation you know as the bible.

 

[FireDragon76]

Examples?
Also, most poor in the US are poor because they are lazy and don't work, or because they are immoral and have children out of wedlock.

It's simplistic and mean-spirited commentary like this that's part of the problem.

 

[fhansen]

If this is considered an offensive question, then please delete, but I keep being confused by the version of Christianity I see from many conservative Americans. Growing up in the UK, my experience of Christians was of loving, endlessly forgiving and gentle people who always seemed to be striving to achieve their own self-admittedly flawed version of the the message Jesus gave them. They didn't judge, they always forgave, and they were just basically better people than most of us. I couldn't be a Christian because I don't believe in god, but I always had huge respect for these gentle, meek people who embodied something I instinctively knew was beautiful. The level of commitment and sacrifice to something they felt was greater than them was truly awe inspiring, despite me not believing.

Then I see so many American 'evangelicals' or conservative Christians who seem to spent their lives judging others, attacking their perceived enemies and embodying a message that seems to revolve around a love of wealth, power and hostility towards those who are weak and needy. I don't get it. I thought the whole message of Jesus was that to embrace the weakest and most vulnerable was the closest path to god?

I've read the bible and it doesn't seem like a complex message. Turn the other cheek, embrace those in need and don't hold yourself above anyone, especially the most humble. Yet I see people quoting random passages and twisting them to somehow say its ok to support violence or war, aspire to prosperity and judge others for their sins rather than leave it to god. It confuses me.

Am I missing something? Is Jesus not a messenger of peace and humility and an advocate for the poor and needy? How did the message of a man who bathed lepers and said "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" end up being used to advocate for wealth creation and for pastors to collect money to buy private jets while the poorest in society go homeless and hungry, or die from lack of healthcare?

How did the message of a man who said "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them" somehow end up being used to support gun ownership, a strong military and the use of violence against others?

Seriously, can someone explain this stuff to me please, because it leaves me dazed and confused.

America seems to be a haven for self-righteousness and the rugged individualism and free-spirit ideals that it fostered from its inception and nurtured throughout its history. Religion, especially Christianity, still thrives here even as modernism and atheism have made inroads. But I'm not so sure that our religion is always so gospel-based as a result, but rather a distorted caricature of it. We might tend to argue over religion more than we actually live it.

Anyway, you're right, when we aren't loving well, we're not truly following Christ; love is the heart of our faith.

 

[Kentonio]

I think that if Mr. Kentonio was really serious about this subject, he would have addressed my comment. Here, I'll say it again:

Some Christians sin, and then learn that this sin is destroying their lives. They repent of their sin and encourage others to do the same. Some then accuse them of being judgmental.

Sorry, it was late and I didn’t know you were expecting a reply. All I can say in reponse is that the Christians from my childhood encouraged people to repent sin too, but they didn’t do so in a way that made the sinner feel like they were under attack or being judged by another human. Their stance always appeared to be based around the idea that everyone sins, and the best they can do as Christians is to try their best not to, while offering whatever support they can to help others do the same. It just never felt like there was anger there towards others.

There have been some great replies in this thread (sorry I can’t answer them all), and I realize now the US Christians I mention in the op are probably just the most vocal.

 

[Kentonio]

Ken, I don't feel your question is offensive.. but it's obviously not authentic curiosity. It's an effort to demonize & chastise Christian (political) partisans u disagree with..

No it isn’t. It’s a genuine point of confusion to me, that my reading of a book can have left me with apparently such a completely opposite understanding as others.

 

[Kentonio]

It definitely seems like you are taking verses out of context if you think violence or war is inherently wrong. God issues orders to wipe out nations on many occasions, including Israel when they disobeyed and became evil.

Old Testament. How many countries did Jesus order wiped out? How many people did he kill?

Also, most poor in the US are poor because they are lazy and don't work, or because they are immoral and have children out of wedlock.

This is exactly the kind of mindset that made me write the thread. How can you show such utter contempt and indifference for the poor yet claim to follow the teachings of a man who preached constantly about cherishing and protecting the poorest and weakest!?

Remember that whole "people quoting random passages and twisting them" you talked about? You're doing it right now. You say you've read the Bible, but you're clearly lying.

What a sadly negative person you show yourself to be in this post.

 

[Liza B.]

If this is considered an offensive question, then please delete, but I keep being confused by the version of Christianity I see from many conservative Americans. Growing up in the UK, my experience of Christians was of loving, endlessly forgiving and gentle people who always seemed to be striving to achieve their own self-admittedly flawed version of the the message Jesus gave them. They didn't judge, they always forgave, and they were just basically better people than most of us. I couldn't be a Christian because I don't believe in god, but I always had huge respect for these gentle, meek people who embodied something I instinctively knew was beautiful. The level of commitment and sacrifice to something they felt was greater than them was truly awe inspiring, despite me not believing.

Then I see so many American 'evangelicals' or conservative Christians who seem to spent their lives judging others, attacking their perceived enemies and embodying a message that seems to revolve around a love of wealth, power and hostility towards those who are weak and needy. I don't get it. I thought the whole message of Jesus was that to embrace the weakest and most vulnerable was the closest path to god?

I've read the bible and it doesn't seem like a complex message. Turn the other cheek, embrace those in need and don't hold yourself above anyone, especially the most humble. Yet I see people quoting random passages and twisting them to somehow say its ok to support violence or war, aspire to prosperity and judge others for their sins rather than leave it to god. It confuses me.

Am I missing something? Is Jesus not a messenger of peace and humility and an advocate for the poor and needy? How did the message of a man who bathed lepers and said "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" end up being used to advocate for wealth creation and for pastors to collect money to buy private jets while the poorest in society go homeless and hungry, or die from lack of healthcare?

How did the message of a man who said "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them" somehow end up being used to support gun ownership, a strong military and the use of violence against others?

Seriously, can someone explain this stuff to me please, because it leaves me dazed and confused.

I would address this but it's pretty clear the lenses are just too thick. Nor worth the time or effort, I'm really sorry to say.

 

[Liza B.]

No, that's not the Christian message.

Oh right, there it is. He's missing the Gospel entire.

So many do. "There is nothing new under the sun"

 

[FireDragon76]

If you don't love yourself, how can you be loving towards others?

And, as we have seen the past several years, there are a lot of people in America who don't appear to be satisfied with their lives. They are angry at the government, angry at 'illegal immigrants' taking jobs, angry that they don't get the respect they feel they deserve, angry about falling out of middle class, and just plain angry at life in general.

The common denominator is resentment.

My own congregation I go to seems to be relatively free of this.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, that's not the Christian message.

It may not be the Gospel but it is a necessary consequence of the Gospel in ethical terms.