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Hmmm....well, we'd prefer of course not want to be marooned with only the book of Romans, and nothing more, but even in the ESV I could read through and gain much. It's very hard to say how much other things I already have learned help my understanding, but it reads this way:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. "

This echoes in a way, or reminds, of the wonderfully compact Ephesians 2:8-10 ... (we notice it's 3 verses truly, instead of the often quoted just 2 verses 8 and 9)

To me this is all really together. I mean that verse 1 by itself isn't enough. More: in Paul's writing I can see that sometimes he will start a theme and go for several chapters on it, and only many chapters later come to the 2nd part that belongs right together with it. Together, two parts which go together, and both necessary, but chapters in between. Even moreso than in other books, one has to read entirely through Paul's epistles fully to get what he says correctly, at least for me and many of us.

Again, no verse says exactly what Romans 8:1 does. No verse talks about not being under the "Condemnation" if one walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Please find me the other verse that says that specifically.
 
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tampasteve

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Please take no offense.
I merely love the Word of God and I love standing up for what is says.

The problem is, that most manuscripts in Greek, especially the earliest ones, do not have the qualifier in 1 John you mention. That is why in most KJV Bibles it now has a footnote as such and most modern English versions leave it out.

But as mentioned, I love the KJV - I use it daily. But when we elevate a translation to such heights it becomes a problem when there are issues, as all the translations have as they are not the original language with all of its idioms and specific words that can be translated several ways.

This, I think is the essence of the whole OP - that no one translation, be it KJV, ESV, NASB, whatever, should be elevated to an "Only" status.
 
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The truth of Romans 8:1 is, there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus .... WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. Leaving out this truth eliminates what Paul's argument or point he is trying to make from Romans 7. The Bible is like an instruction manual. If the instructions are not complete you get a different message. I cannot tell you how many times I have argued against Eternal Security Proponents who said the latter half of Romans 8:1 was not supposed to be in that verse. Why? Because they don't like what it says.

Also, I would prefer to have 1 John 5:7 in my Bible when I argue against an Anti-Trinitarian, as well. I prefer a sword and not a butter knife.
 
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The problem is, that most manuscripts in Greek, especially the earliest ones, do not have the qualifier in 1 John you mention. That is why in most KJV Bibles it now has a footnote as such and most modern English versions leave it out.

But as mentioned, I love the KJV - I use it daily. But when we elevate a translation to such heights it becomes a problem when there are issues, as all the translations have as they are not the original language with all of its idioms and specific words that can be translated several ways.

This, I think is the essence of the whole OP - that no one translation, be it KJV, ESV, NASB, whatever, should be elevated to an "Only" status.

Earlier does not always mean better.

The KJV was translated from one set of manuscripts.
The Modern Translations are translated from another set of manuscripts.

They are two vines.
One source is corrupted and the other is true.

A simple fruits test or side by side comparison will determine which one is true and other is false.
 
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tampasteve

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The KJV was translated from one set of manuscripts.
The Modern Translations are translated from another set of manuscripts.

They are two vines.
One source is corrupted and the other is true.
OK, if that is the course you would like to take then who am I to question your decision? Since they cannot be proven to be "corrupt" (or proven opposite) I would hope you would respect my decision to use other versions in addition to the KJV. I certainly do not feel it is a salvation issue if you want to stay KJV-O or ESV-O, or XYZ-O as the overall message is throughout the scriptures, even if we did not have the NT at all the story proves itself via the Jewish Scriptures.
 
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Halbhh

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The truth of Romans 8:1 is, there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus .... WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. Leaving out this truth eliminates what Paul's argument or point he is trying to make from Romans 7. The Bible is like an instruction manual. If the instructions are not complete you get a different message. I cannot tell you how many times I have argued against Eternal Security Proponents who said the latter half of Romans 8:1 was not supposed to be in that verse. Why? Because they don't like what it says.

Also, I would prefer to have 1 John 5:7 in my Bible when I argue against an Anti-Trinitarian, as well. I prefer a sword and not a butter knife.

I thought of how to say better what I can offer on this.

Even with the good KJV, a great verse like Rom 8:1 as in the KVJ, or even the full chapter Romans chapter 8 is not enough! It is not enough to have only part of the book. For example, people can easily go very far wrong without chapter 12 (as we know some have/do). Just as an example.

Love in Action -- Romans chapter 12. Without it, one ends in error.

See? So, because this is also part with the meaning in 8:4, together -- it's like an all-together book. One needs all the book. One cannot get things right with only certain parts.

But reading through, and including chapter 12 and all the rest of the book, then that lack you point out in the ESV 8:1 is fixed. Entirely.

The wonderful (N)KJV won't save us from the errors of not reading through fully, and reading through fully will save us from any lack in translations.

Put in different words, any false doctrine people come up with can be destroyed simply by full reading through entire books. Further, we can't undo some critical errors unless we rely on entire reading, finally.

So, instead of a particular translation of 8:1, they need those additional passages, which are very often from other chapters. That's more helpful for them to get unstuck.

For the once-saved-always-saved versions that try to cancel out parts of what Christ said to do ("put into practice"), the truly best response is quoting (fully enough) precisely what Christ said (such as Matthew 7:21-27). Of course the epistle of James can help too.
 
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OK, if that is the course you would like to take then who am I to question your decision? Since they cannot be proven to be "corrupt" (or proven opposite) I would hope you would respect my decision to use other versions in addition to the KJV. I certainly do not feel it is a salvation issue if you want to stay KJV-O or ESV-O, or XYZ-O as the overall message is throughout the scriptures, even if we did not have the NT at all the story proves itself via the Jewish Scriptures.

I believe I have sufficiently proved my case in Post #14.
There are only two sides one can choose.
KJV (Textus Receptus) or Modern Translations (Critical Text).
By way of comparison with the KJV, the Modern Translations seek to attack the Trinity, Jesus, God, teaching on holiness, and other truths in the Bible.
 
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tampasteve

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I believe I have sufficiently proved my case in Post #14.
There are only two sides one can choose.
KJV (Textus Receptus) or Modern Translations (Critical Text).
By way of comparison with the KJV, the Modern Translations seek to attack the Trinity, Jesus, God, teaching on holiness, and other truths in the Bible.
:)
 
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I thought of how to say better what I can offer on this.

Even with the good KJV, a great verse like Rom 8:1 as in the KVJ, or even the full chapter Romans chapter 8 is not enough! It is not enough to have only part of the book. For example, people can easily go very far wrong without chapter 12 (as we know some have/do). Just as an example.

Love in Action -- Romans chapter 12. Without it, one ends in error.

See? So, because this is also part with the meaning in 8:4, together -- it's like an all-together book. One needs all the book. One cannot get things right with only certain parts.

But reading through, and including chapter 12 and all the rest of the book, then that lack you point out in the ESV 8:1 is fixed. Entirely.

The wonderful (N)KJV won't save us from the errors of not reading through fully, and reading through fully will save us from any lack in translations.

Put in different words, any false doctrine people come up with can be destroyed simply by full reading through entire books. Further, we can't undo some critical errors unless we rely on entire reading, finally.

So, instead of a particular translation of 8:1, they need those additional passages, which are very often from other chapters. That's more helpful for them to get unstuck.

For the once-saved-always-saved versions that try to cancel out parts of what Christ said to do ("put into practice"), the truly best response is quoting (fully enough) precisely what Christ said (such as Matthew 7:21-27). Of course the epistle of James can help too.

You are missing the point. If I told you that I built a plane using faulty instructions, would you want to fly in that plane? Why would you want to trust a Bible that has faulty instructions when it is a book that is even more important by the fact that it gives us spiritual instructions for our souls? Again, my defense against false beliefs and religions clearly stands better if I have a KJV and not a Modern Translation. Also, Romans 8:1 is not said exactly anywhere else in the Bible like the KJV says it. You can glean the basic principle from it, but if one seeks to neuter Romans 8:1 (like the Modern Translations do) it will water down what Paul is saying from Romans 7. It may not matter to you to have the complete full version of Romans 8:1 in your Bible, but to me, I wouldn't want a half truth but I would want the full truth. I accept no substitutes or imitations.
 
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Some Walrus humor:

y4m0jSD.gif
 
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Halbhh

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You are missing the point. If I told you that I built a plane using faulty instructions, would you want to fly in that plane? Why would you want to trust a Bible that has faulty instructions when it is a book that is even more important by the fact that it gives us spiritual instructions for our souls? Again, my defense against false beliefs and religions clearly stands better if I have a KJV and not a Modern Translation. Also, Romans 8:1 is not said exactly anywhere else in the Bible like the KJV says it. You can glean the basic principle from it, but if one seeks to neuter Romans 8:1 (like the Modern Translations do) it will water down what Paul is saying from Romans 7. It may not matter to you to have the complete full version of Romans 8:1 in your Bible, but to me, I wouldn't want a half truth but I would want the full truth. I accept no substitutes or imitations.

Let me look again:
New International Version
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

presuming a person continues to read and sees verse 4
----------
Hmmm...well, we cannot be walking in/after the Spirit unless we are in Christ Jesus. And if we abide/remain/dwell in Him, then we are walking in the Spirit if we are keeping His words to us. Abiding, remaining on the vine. The only way. Because of this, Romans 8:1-4 in the ESV has the same meaning as the KJV for me, as it comes across to me. But I do know I'm having already read with real listening the Gospel of John, so that I have chapters 14 and 15 within, having listened. Supposing someone refused to listen and hear in the Gospel of John, or another gospel, either way, then....would they be willing to listen to Romans? I'd expect not. Those not wanting to hear Him, then they wouldn't listen to Romans either. You might encounter someone though who had wrongly thought they could walk in the Spirit without Christ, without following/listening to His words, and then you could point them to the necessity of listening to Him, with such verses (so many choices are available) like John 10:27 and Matthew 7:24-27 (likely both together). But even that requires we have that atmosphere of not being at odds, not in contention, but instead in love, of course.
 
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Let me look again:
New International Version
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

presuming a person continues to read and sees verse 4
----------
Hmmm...well, we cannot be walking in/after the Spirit unless we are in Christ Jesus. And if we abide/remain/dwell in Him, then we are walking in the Spirit if we are keeping His words to us. Abiding, remaining on the vine. The only way. Because of this, Romans 8:1-4 in he ESV has the same meaning as the KJV for me, as it comes across to me. But I do know I'm having already read with real listening the Gospel of John, so that I have chapters 14 and 15 within, having listened. Supposing someone refused to listen and hear in the Gospel of John, or another gospel, either way, then....would they be willing to listen to Romans? I'd expect not. Those not wanting to hear Him, then they wouldn't listen to Romans either. You might encounter someone though who had wrongly thought they could walk in the Spirit without Christ, without His words, and then you could point them to the necessity of listening to Him, with such verses (so many choices are available) like John 10:27 and Matthew 7:24-27 (likely both together). But even that requires we have that atmosphere of not being at odds, not in contention, but instead in love, of course.

Yet, there are many people who think they can abide in Christ Jesus and still be saved regardless if they walk after the flesh (sin) or not. This is where the Bible comes in. The full and real version and not the incomplete feline neutered version.
 
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DW1980

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But how can you truly know what the Hebrew and Greek says when you (and everyone who has lived the past few hundred years) has not grew up speaking and writing Biblical Hebrew and Greek to truly know what it says with 100% certainty?
I think here you have caught the essence of my OP.

Unless you are fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and are intimately familiar with the culture and customs of each writer, you can't. It's not even the last few hundred years - it's 2,000 to what, 4,000 years? That's why we need scholars to enlighten us, to translate for us. And this in no way diminishes my absolute belief that the Bible is God's Word.

The texts of the Bible have been preserved in such a way that we can be sure we have what the Bible writers wrote. However as anyone who speaks 2 languages can tell you, translation is difficult.

Let's say the Bible had been written in English and I'm translating it into Italian. I couldn't literally translate "what is your name?" Italians don't say that. I would have to say "how are you called?" And then when we get to idioms it's even more complicated. And that's two modern languages existing in similar cultures. We're talking about 2,000 years before us, with a very different culture.

Take Greek, it has multiple words for "love" where English has one. Translators have to make choices.

That's why to me I need a few translations. Which is why I mostly use the NIV, and reference the ESV and NLT. Occasionally I'll check the NRSV as my pastor uses that, though it's very similar to the ESV. I also have an Amplified Bible I check too. This allows me to see the different possibilities. It's also partly why I can't understand anyone advocating that just one English translation (KJV, ESV, or whatever) is enough. That said I'm mindful of how spoilt we are as native English speakers!
 
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DW1980

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The truth of Romans 8:1 is, there is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus .... WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. Leaving out this truth eliminates what Paul's argument or point he is trying to make from Romans 7. The Bible is like an instruction manual. If the instructions are not complete you get a different message. I cannot tell you how many times I have argued against Eternal Security Proponents who said the latter half of Romans 8:1 was not supposed to be in that verse. Why? Because they don't like what it says.

Also, I would prefer to have 1 John 5:7 in my Bible when I argue against an Anti-Trinitarian, as well. I prefer a sword and not a butter knife.
I do understand what you're saying. I spoke to Jehovahs witnesses and Muslims, and i longed for something like 1 Jn 5:7.

But the question isn't what I want in my Bible, a JW or Muslim will immediately point out that this verse isn't in the oldest manuscripts. They'll rightly assert that it was most likely inserted at a later date. They will then dismiss any other argument I make because now I appear to not know the history of my own book.

The issue isn't what would I like. It's what did God say.
 
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I do understand what you're saying. I spoke to Jehovahs witnesses and Muslims, and i longed for something like 1 Jn 5:7.

But the question isn't what I want in my Bible, a JW or Muslim will immediately point out that this verse isn't in the oldest manuscripts. They'll rightly assert that it was most likely inserted at a later date. They will then dismiss any other argument I make because now I appear to not know the history of my own book.

The issue isn't what would I like. It's what did God say.

The oldest manuscripts are not the most reliable. Just because something is older does not make it more reliable. That is a flawed assumption. Time does not make something automatically more trust worthy. The devil existed in the Garden and corrupted God's Word even back in the beginning of time. The way to test something is not by Historical Science but it is by Observational Science.


For we do not have a time machine to confirm what is in the past. We can only go by what we see today by doing a fruits test on the two different vines (i.e. the Textus Receptus vs. the Critical Text).

However, on the other hand, if you want Historical Science, here ya go:

A Trail of Evidence:

We find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis[Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

Source:
A Trail of Evidence.
 
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In addition, if you are looking for a little more than just seeing how the KJV is superior to the Modern Translations in regards to it's truths and or doctrine, etc. there is also Biblical Numerics that confirm that the KJV is divine in origin, as well.

 
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I also have discovered amazing truth within the KJV when I continued to put my faith in it when I was faced with a supposed Bible contradiction. For later, the truth was revealed to me in regards to what certain Bible contradictions say.
 
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I think here you have caught the essence of my OP.

Unless you are fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and are intimately familiar with the culture and customs of each writer, you can't. It's not even the last few hundred years - it's 2,000 to what, 4,000 years? That's why we need scholars to enlighten us, to translate for us. And this in no way diminishes my absolute belief that the Bible is God's Word.

The texts of the Bible have been preserved in such a way that we can be sure we have what the Bible writers wrote. However as anyone who speaks 2 languages can tell you, translation is difficult.

Let's say the Bible had been written in English and I'm translating it into Italian. I couldn't literally translate "what is your name?" Italians don't say that. I would have to say "how are you called?" And then when we get to idioms it's even more complicated. And that's two modern languages existing in similar cultures. We're talking about 2,000 years before us, with a very different culture.

Take Greek, it has multiple words for "love" where English has one. Translators have to make choices.

That's why to me I need a few translations. Which is why I mostly use the NIV, and reference the ESV and NLT. Occasionally I'll check the NRSV as my pastor uses that, though it's very similar to the ESV. I also have an Amplified Bible I check too. This allows me to see the different possibilities. It's also partly why I can't understand anyone advocating that just one English translation (KJV, ESV, or whatever) is enough. That said I'm mindful of how spoilt we are as native English speakers!

Understanding of God's Word is not as you say. Understanding in Gods Word is given by the Holy Spirit (See 1 John 2:27). Simply ask and keep seeking and compare Scripture with Scripture. Believe God's Word is perfect and trust in it. This is how a believer gain's knowledge of God's Word.
 
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DW1980

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Understanding of God's Word is not as you say. Understanding in Gods Word is given by the Holy Spirit (See 1 John 2:27). Simply ask and keep seeking and compare Scripture with Scripture. Believe God's Word is perfect and trust in it. This is how a believer gain's knowledge of God's Word.

I do agree with you, we can't understand the Bible apart from the Holy Spirit. Before reading I always ask for the Holy Spirit to open my heart and mind to what he wants to say, to me that is crucial.

But, if you were handed a Greek NT, how far would you get unless you speak the language and understand the cultures and customs? We need translations, and for that we need people who know the language and cultures.
 
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