"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

[Oldmantook]

I've never heard anyone actually teach this.

This is often a criticism of the OSAS view. But OSAS pastors and teachers don't actually teach this. Do you know of anyone who teaches this? Can you name a pastor or teacher who says that a Christian can continue in habitual sin and that repentance is not necessary?

Well-known Pastor Charles Stanley in his book, Eternal Security wrote: "Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual 'believe in' Him" (p. 67).
Pastor Stanley teaches that the only requirement for salvation is belief and everything after that is inconsequential.

Pastor Stanley even believes that a Christian can walk away or apostatize from the faith and will still be saved. In his book, For Those Who Stop Believing he writes: "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand" (p. 74). "Faith is simply the way we say yes to God's free gift of eternal life. Faith and salvation are not one and the same anymore than a gift and the hand that receives it are the same. Salvation or justification or adoption- whatever you wish to call it-stands independently of faith. Consequently, God does not require a constant attitude of faith in order to be saved-only an act of faith" (p. 80). "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).
So Pastor Stanley teaches that a Christian because of a one-time past moment of belief is saved no matter what he or she does - even if he or she later departs from the faith.

"And so, sometimes out of ignorance or whatever it might be, they attempt to gratify and meet those needs the same way they did before they were saved, and therefore, you can't tell a carnal believer from a lost man. That is, you can't tell the cold from the carnal because the truth is, they're both acting the same way. Now, one of them is in Christ and one of them isn't. One of them is lost and the other one is in Christ. One of them knows about God and knows him in the experience of salvation; the other doesn't know him at all." (Spiritual Vs. Carnal -- Study in 1 Cor., Tape #8, PQ092)
In other words, Stanley teaches that there is no difference in behavior between a carnal believer and an unbeliever. The only difference is that the carnal believer is still saved, despite him continuing to sin just like an unbeliever.

"A believer who commits suicide is already forgiven. Now I didn't say it was gonna be good for him, I said they're forgiven. They are pardoned of that sin."(Charles Stanley, Eternal Security Can You Be Sure?, Oliver-Nelson Books, 1990)
How can one be saved despite committing suicide? One cannot repent of killing oneself as dead persons don't have the opportunity to repent.

"No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, 'Murder?' Forgiven. 'Stealing?' Forgiven. 'Adultery?' Forgiven. 'Worshiping idols?' Forgiven."(Grace: God's Second Chance -- Grace and Continuing Sin, Tape #4, MC213.)

.

 

[A_Thinker]

The bible suggests that if we don't abide in Christ we'll be cast out.

This interpretation is in conflict with Jesus' direct statement here ...

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

He goes on to say ...

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes, I would say that is "perverting grace", i think...

But, I was wondering if we can judge whether one or another is truly perverting grace or not...?

I think if it's obvious that a believer is in the habit of sinning; say for example a habitual gossiper/slanderer for example, it would be prudent for his/her sake to point that out so that hopefully repentance/restoration will occur.
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:19-20).

 

[RadiantGrace]

.
First off the OSAS Theology only pertains to those who have received it.

The person who after receiving the Free Gift of God's Grace for Salvation, "has Changed", he has become a New Creature, he does not have the same mentality as he had before, and he has been given a New Nature.

The changing is part and parcel of the Free Gift of Salvation.
We are Changed through Baptism unto Newness of life, we are Regenerated, we are Born Again unto the Spirit, it's not a willingness to change it is what does happen.

Were you not Changed?

Read the next paragraph carefully:

I am a sinner. One day I accepted I was a sinner. I renounced my sins. I gave myself to Christ. Once a week I meet with others like me to testify about what has happened to me. It helps reaffirm those with whom I meet. We have skeptics that come and listen to our testimony and some join us.

Is that Church? Sounds like it?
Let's change a single word.

I am an alcoholic. One day I accepted I was an alcoholic. I renounced my alcoholism. I gave myself to Christ. Once a week I meet with others like me to testify about what has happened to me. It helps reaffirm those that I meet with. We have skeptics that come and listen to our testimony and some join us.

Christianity is alcoholics anonymous for sinners. AA is based on Christianity. Both are a daily struggle. There is no Once Sober Always Sober. Christians who think giving up sin is like giving up alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling, or binge eating are delusional. They no longer accept they struggle. They go to AA meetings drunk with a bunch of other drunks.

 

[A_Thinker]

Also germaine to the discussion ...

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

 

[A_Thinker]

Christianity is alcoholics anonymous for sinners. AA is based on Christianity. Both are a daily struggle. There is no Once Sober Always Sober.

Sobering up is a process of Reformation.

Salvation is a Re-Creation where God ...

* gives us everlasting life
* gives us hearts of flesh
* makes us a new creation
* seals us with the Holy Spirit
* comes to dwell within us
* begins a work in us which He shall accomplish (so Paul believed)

 

[fhansen]

I recently came across this quote from John MacArthur. I don't love everything from him (see footnotes on dispensationalism), but I thought that this hit the nail on the head.

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

How can anyone who is truly saved deny this? If you truly know the power of God and the depths of your own sin, how can you deny this?

You'd have to say something like:

"Well I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm determined!" or
"I wouldn't lose my salvation because I'm smart!",
"I had a good upbringing!",
"I'm stronger than most!"​

Isn't it much better to say:

"If I am saved at all it is because the marvelous strength and grace of God which he continually supplies me"?​

To say that you can lose your salvation (as if some part of it depends on you), and then to hope that you won't lose your salvation (because, after all, you're pretty serious about God) is the height of arrogance!

People can change their opinions, values, and priorities over time. This is why it's not our place to say we can know with 100% certainty who will persevere and who will not. And Scripture already tells us that not all who think they're saved, are saved.

So we shouldn't put the cart ahead of the horse. In the end salvation has more to do with how we actually live our lives than our personal assessment or opinion of our state of salvation. The truth is, if you can lose your salvation, maybe you will.

 

[A_Thinker]

"God is not partial" Rom 2:11
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem Jerusalem..how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matthew 23
"we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
"God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3
"God so loved the WORLD ... yes really" John 3:16

In Calvinism that is all just a bunch of "false advertising" and "inflated claims to love everyone"

Also ... Deuteronomy 30

19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

 

[Buzz_B]

Well-known Pastor Charles Stanley in his book, Eternal Security wrote: "Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual 'believe in' Him" (p. 67).
Pastor Stanley teaches that the only requirement for salvation is belief and everything after that is inconsequential.

Pastor Stanley even believes that a Christian can walk away or apostatize from the faith and will still be saved. In his book, For Those Who Stop Believing he writes: "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand" (p. 74). "Faith is simply the way we say yes to God's free gift of eternal life. Faith and salvation are not one and the same anymore than a gift and the hand that receives it are the same. Salvation or justification or adoption- whatever you wish to call it-stands independently of faith. Consequently, God does not require a constant attitude of faith in order to be saved-only an act of faith" (p. 80). "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).
So Pastor Stanley teaches that a Christian because of a one-time past moment of belief is saved no matter what he or she does - even if he or she later departs from the faith.

"And so, sometimes out of ignorance or whatever it might be, they attempt to gratify and meet those needs the same way they did before they were saved, and therefore, you can't tell a carnal believer from a lost man. That is, you can't tell the cold from the carnal because the truth is, they're both acting the same way. Now, one of them is in Christ and one of them isn't. One of them is lost and the other one is in Christ. One of them knows about God and knows him in the experience of salvation; the other doesn't know him at all." (Spiritual Vs. Carnal -- Study in 1 Cor., Tape #8, PQ092)
In other words, Stanley teaches that there is no difference in behavior between a carnal believer and an unbeliever. The only difference is that the carnal believer is still saved, despite him continuing to sin just like an unbeliever.

"A believer who commits suicide is already forgiven. Now I didn't say it was gonna be good for him, I said they're forgiven. They are pardoned of that sin."(Charles Stanley, Eternal Security Can You Be Sure?, Oliver-Nelson Books, 1990)
How can one be saved despite committing suicide? One cannot repent of killing oneself as dead persons don't have the opportunity to repent.

"No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, 'Murder?' Forgiven. 'Stealing?' Forgiven. 'Adultery?' Forgiven. 'Worshiping idols?' Forgiven."(Grace: God's Second Chance -- Grace and Continuing Sin, Tape #4, MC213.)

.

It is so easy to confuse ourselves and that part I am sure God is sympathetic toward. But put on your thinking cap here for a moment and give yourself to follow the thoughts I am about to speak. You will not know they are from God until you do.

Even some of us who either do not or no longer do accept OSAS have been making a mistake. Not that we are wrong that OSAS is wrong, but in that we have gulped down what the many have said about Matthew 7:23-23 being those who believe in works. Verse 21 clearly there shows works are required. But what even some of us who do not believe OSAS have failed to see is that these verses are really about those who believe they have the Holy Spirit in them and doing the work. But because they believe God is doing it all for them they do yet give themselves over also to sin. Thus Matthew 7:23.

Jesus told us, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

Who does Jesus lay the responsibility on? It is important that we be honest with ourselves about that answer.

And who of you can say that keeping Jesus' commandments is then not a requirement? Only the unsaved would say it is not a requirement.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

[RadiantGrace]

Sobering up is a process of Reformation.

Salvation is a Recreation where God ...

* gives us everlasting life
* gives us hearts of flesh
* makes us a new creation
* seals us with the Holy Spirit
* comes to dwell within us
* begins a work in us which He shall accomplish (so Paul believed)

If someone in Guyana offers you a drink made using Flavor-Aid... don't.

 

[Deadworm]

We are saved by grace through faith. But in both Hebrew (amunah) and Greek (pistis), the word translated "faith" also means "faithful." In an important sense, the Bible cannot be translated because there is no one-to-one equivalent word to our closest English word. Another example of this this Hebrew/ Aramaic word for "hate." Jesus teaches that His disciples must "hate" their families, but "hate' here doesn't mean "emotional venom;" it designates priorities.

So the claim "If we could lose our salvation, we would" is false because we can choose to be faithful and then, if we continue to sin, we can confess that sin and "He is faithful and just to forgive that sin," so that we don't forfeit our salvation. That is because faith/ faithfulness does not merit salvation. Salvation takes for granted that we are all a work in progress; so we need not be perfect. But we do need to live a grace-based life to make our grasp of salvation real and that means we need to regularly express our gratitude for God's grace. This lifestyle of gratitude is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition for salvation because works can't merit salvation. It is precisely the possibility of losing our salvation that prompts James to pose this rhetorical question: "If a man has faith but not works, can faith save him?" And of course, the assumed answer is a resounding No.

A blizzard of NT texts imply that we can choose a lifestyle in which we are no longer faithful and grateful for God's grace and can thus forfeit our salvation, but that is a subject for another thread.

 

[A_Thinker]

So are you saying that the choice is inexplicable? We don't know why a person chooses or rejects Jesus at the end of the day?

Jesus said this ...

John 3

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[A_Thinker]

Even some of us who either do not or no longer do accept OSAS have been making a mistake. Not that we are wrong that OSAS is wrong, but in that we have gulped down what the many have said about Matthew 7:23-23 being those who believe in works. Verse 21 clearly there shows works are required. But what even some of us who do not believe OSAS have failed to see is that these verses are really about those who believe they have the Holy Spirit in them and doing the work. But because they believe God is doing it all for them they do yet give themselves over also to sin. Thus Matthew 7:23.

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In regard to the will of the Father, in John 6, Jesus says ...

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

... and further on in that discourse ...

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Also ... note what Jesus says to those in Matthew 7:21-23 falsely claiming allegiance to Him, DESPITE THEIR MANY PROFRSSED WORKS ...

Depart from Me, ye workers of iniquity, ... I NEVER KNEW YOU ... "

 

[Neogaia777]

If it is possible to lose out on Christ, the question is whether only God alone can judge this and not us...? Or, if we can, should we...? And if so, how should we do it...?

Also, Whether repentance is a one time thing,or is something you may have to do multiple times, or is an (repentant) attitude or state of mind you keep and maintain through it all...

Can anyone claim to be sinless, or maybe you just are at the moment, but will and do sin sometimes.. What's that make you...? How can anyone claim to be sinless, and say they'll never ever sin in their life again...?

God Bless!

 

[A_Thinker]

A blizzard of NT texts imply that we can choose a lifestyle in which we are no longer faithful and grateful for God's grace and can thus forfeit our salvation, but that is a subject for another thread.

The only NT text I know of which clearly speaks of a forfeiture of God's salvation is possibly Hebrews 6, ... which really presents a REJECTION of God's gift, ... rather than a FAILURE to KEEP IT ...

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Complete in Thee]

Historically the Christian church has taught salvation can be lost.

God bless

 

[A_Thinker]

Historically the Christian church has taught salvation can be lost.

God bless

The Church has also taught ...

... Limbo for infants
... Purgatory for Christians that die with "sin" on their soul
... that Indugences can pardon one's time in Purgatory

The Church has taught many "things" over the course of its 2,000 year history ... and, typically, you can find conflicting teaching from different sides of many issues ...

P.S. I note that your signature champions "completeness" in Christ ...

 

[Buzz_B]

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In regard to the will of the Father, in John 6, Jesus says ...

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

... and further on in that discourse ...

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Also ... note what Jesus says to those in Matthew 7:21-23 falsely claiming allegiance to Him, DESPITE THEIR MANY PROFRSSED WORKS ...

Depart from Me, ye workers of iniquity, ... I NEVER KNEW YOU ... "

True, but who does that when due to fully recognizing it is their faithfulness not to, they are fully conscious that they must exercise responsibility to listen, make a genuine effort to understand, and obey?

Clearly those that think they have impunity to sin are the only ones that will do so without worry and so never progress to form a habit of not sinning. They, by the belief that they have impunity for sin, have no real reason to fight their fascination with the parts of sin they have found pleasure in. And the majority who would do that would naturally be OSAS believers.

 

[Buzz_B]

If it is possible to lose out on Christ, the question is whether only God alone can judge this and not us...? Or, if we can, should we...? And if so, how should we do it...?

Also, Whether repentance is a one time thing,or is something you may have to do multiple times, or is an (repentant) attitude or state of mind you keep and maintain through it all...

Can anyone claim to be sinless, or maybe you just are at the moment, but will and do sin sometimes.. What's that make you...? How can anyone claim to be sinless, and say they'll never ever sin in their life again...?

God Bless!

We must be able to judge something concerning our failure, else the following would make no sense:

Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I know this by now: If I could lose my salvation, I already would have...

Knowing who I am that makes sense to me.

I guess there are many who disagree but one of the ones that has helped over the years for my wife and I to grow much in the Word has been John MacArthur.

M-Bob