"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

Neogaia777

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Gee..it's sounds like you're judging me...the very thing that you condemn.
Sorry, I mean all of us, God meant that to speak to me as well...

My point was spending time learning from him about peoples hearts, and your own, before you should judge others hearts... I just don't like people talking to others in a judgmental way, especially about other peoples sins...

But, in a way I guess I was kind of judging yours, sorry bout that...?

I'll do better...

God Bless!
 
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Oldmantook

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Sorry, I mean all of us, God meant that to speak to me as well...

My point was spending time learning from him about peoples hearts, and your own, before you should judge others hearts... I just don't like people talking to others in a judgmental way, especially about other peoples sins...

But, in a way I guess I was kind of judging yours, sorry bout that...?

I'll do better...

God Bless!
Thanks for the clarification as I better understand where you're coming from. My point was not to judge others but to point out that there are Christians who believe they can be in habitual sin and still be saved. In other words, a license to sin which the scriptures warn against.
 
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Tree of Life

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Thanks for the clarification as I better understand where you're coming from. My point was not to judge others but to point out that there are Christians who believe they can be in habitual sin and still be saved. In other words, a license to sin which the scriptures warn against.

I've never heard anyone actually teach this.

This is often a criticism of the OSAS view. But OSAS pastors and teachers don't actually teach this. Do you know of anyone who teaches this? Can you name a pastor or teacher who says that a Christian can continue in habitual sin and that repentance is not necessary?
 
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BobRyan

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True - and of course John 12:32 tells us that God supernaturally "draws all mankind to Him" to enable that choice for all.

Would you mind answering the following questions in order:

If God makes it possible for all to embrace him then why don't all embrace him?

Because all have free will - and even the sinless Adam "did not always chooses well" how much more humans with a defective sinful human nature.

What is the existential difference between someone who chooses Jesus and someone who rejects him (assuming both have an equal opportunity)?

Free will that by definition allows one person to choose "a" and another to choose "b".

If this difference is something in the person, then doesn't this mean that salvation depends on some virtue in the person and not entirely on God?

if the decision is simply "arbitrary God picking person-A and not B" then the Bible failed to mention it.

"God is not partial" Rom 2:11
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem Jerusalem..how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matthew 23
"we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
"God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3
"God so loved the WORLD ... yes really" John 3:16

In Calvinism that is all just a bunch of "false advertising" and "inflated claims to love everyone"
 
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ToBeLoved

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I've never heard anyone actually teach this.

This is often a criticism of the OSAS view. But OSAS pastors and teachers don't actually teach this. Do you know of anyone who teaches this? Can you name a pastor or teacher who says that a Christian can continue in habitual sin and that repentance is not necessary?
No one teaches this.

This is a standard argument from those who think love of God isn’t good enough motivation.

Those who live in great fear of God, don’t experience the kind of love that changes the heart and they can’t fathom that keeping Christ’s greatest commandment could actually work in people’s lives and be real.

It’s like politics, but the Christian version. They have their talking points. Don’t need to be true or valid.
 
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Neogaia777

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Thanks for the clarification as I better understand where you're coming from. My point was not to judge others but to point out that there are Christians who believe they can be in habitual sin and still be saved. In other words, a license to sin which the scriptures warn against.
Yes, I would say that is "perverting grace", i think...

But, I was wondering if we can judge whether one or another is truly perverting grace or not...?
 
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Tree of Life

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Free will that by definition allows one person to choose "a" and another to choose "b".

So are you saying that the choice is inexplicable? We don't know why a person chooses or rejects Jesus at the end of the day?

if the decision is simply "arbitrary God picking person-A and not B" then the Bible failed to mention it.

It is not arbitrary, but it is certainly founded in the inscrutable choice of God. (Romans 9:13-18).

"God is not partial" Rom 2:11
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem Jerusalem..how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matthew 23
"we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
"God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3
"God so loved the WORLD ... yes really" John 3:16

In Calvinism that is all just a bunch of "false advertising" and "inflated claims to love everyone"

No. Calvinism has no problems interpreting these verses. But each of them is in a unique context and written by a different author. And so they would have to be taken one at a time to explain their meaning.
 
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It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So Jesus did not come to abrogate God's Eternal Moral Laws (like do not murder, do not hate, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc.). Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Saturday Sabbath, the death penalty for disobeying God's laws, circumcision, the dietary laws, etc.) (See Colossians 2:14-17). Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17). So Jesus did not come to destroy all Law and it's consequences but He came to fulfill them into their true intended purpose with the commands given to us within the New Testament. These commands are based on love. Love God and love your neighbor.

But what about Paul condemning the idea of trying to be justified by the Law?
This would be the Old Covenant Law and not all law that Paul was condemning (For example: Paul condemned circumcision (Which was a part of the Old Law); See Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, etc.).

But what about Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5?
Well, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about Initial Salvation (or Ultimate Salvation) (i.e. Justification) and they are not talking about Continued Salvation or Sanctification. The Bible also does teach about Sanctification and how it is also a part of the Salvation Process. To deny this is to deny the rest of Scripture. For James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24). "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17). Paul says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). The author Hebrews says, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9). But what about salvation being a gift thru grace? Well, a person is initially saved by God's grace and not of themselves when they first come to Christ. A person is ultimately saved by God's grace as a gift because if they sin, they can get clean thru repentance (i.e. confessing their sin - See 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9) and not by going out and doing another good work. That is why salvation is ultimately a gift. However, people are confused as to what the gift actually is. The gift from God is Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 9:15) (John 3:16). While Jesus can set us free by forgiving us of our past sins by His death and resurrection; Jesus also sets us free from being a slave to sin, too. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). Jesus will not only save a person initially by His work on the cross and by His resurrection, but Jesus can save a person from their life of sin, too. Regeneration is not a true regeneration if there is no spiritual transformation in a person's life.

Jesus is in the life changing business. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
(2 Corinthians 5:17).

Anyways, we know that Sanctification is also a process of salvation, because the Scriptures also say,

1 John 3:7 says, "let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous,"
1 John 1:7 says, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
1 John 3:8 says, "he that commits sin is of the devil"
John 3:20 says, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
Hebrews 10:26 says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

1 John 2:3-6 says,
3 "And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

1 John 5:12 says, "He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life."
Romans 11:22 says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

"....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
"And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Hebrews 5:9 says, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

Titus 1:16 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48).
41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:23).
"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father [God] who is in heaven."
(Matthew 7:21).
"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).
Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
"26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
(Galatians 6:7-9).

"If any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing"
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

"but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17).
"If you love me, keep my commandments."
(John 14:15).
"He that loves not knows not God; for God is love."
(1 John 4:8).
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).
 
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No. Calvinism has no problems interpreting these verses. But each of them is in a unique context and written by a different author. And so they would have to be taken one at a time to explain their meaning.

One of the many problems with Calvinism is that it attempts to paint God in a bad light. In one popular version of Calvinism, God chooses some to be saved and others to be damned. However, if this is the case, then why is God going to have a judgment then? It makes no sense. That would be like creating a robot whereby it's creator programmed it to kill and then the creator put the robot on trial for murder.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So Jesus did not come to abrogate God's Eternal Moral Laws (like do not murder, do not hate, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc.). Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Saturday Sabbath, the death penalty for disobeying God's laws, circumcision, the dietary laws, etc.) (See Colossians 2:14-17). Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17). So Jesus did not come to destroy all Law and it's consequences but He came to fulfill them into their true intended purpose with the commands given to us within the New Testament. These commands are based on love. Love God and love your neighbor.

But what about Paul condemning the idea of trying to be justified by the Law?
This would be the Old Covenant Law and not all law that Paul was condemning (For example: Paul condemned circumcision (Which was a part of the Old Law); See Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, etc.).

But what about Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5?
Well, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about Initial Salvation (or Ultimate Salvation) (i.e. Justification) and they are not talking about Continued Salvation or Sanctification. The Bible also does teach about Sanctification and how it is also a part of the Salvation Process. To deny this is to deny the rest of Scripture. For James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24). "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17). Paul says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). The author Hebrews says, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9). But what about salvation being a gift thru grace? Well, a person is initially saved by God's grace and not of themselves when they first come to Christ. A person is ultimately saved by God's grace as a gift because if they sin, they can get clean thru repentance (i.e. confessing their sin - See 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9) and not by going out and doing another good work. That is why salvation is ultimately a gift. However, people are confused as to what the gift actually is. The gift from God is Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 9:15) (John 3:16). While Jesus can set us free by forgiving us of our past sins by His death and resurrection; Jesus also sets us free from being a slave to sin, too. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). Jesus will not only save a person initially by His work on the cross and by His resurrection, but Jesus can save a person from their life of sin, too. Regeneration is not a true regeneration if there is no spiritual transformation in a person's life.

Jesus is in the life changing business. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
(2 Corinthians 5:17).

Anyways, we know that Sanctification is also a process of salvation, because the Scriptures also say,

1 John 3:7 says, "let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous,"
1 John 1:7 says, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
1 John 3:8 says, "he that commits sin is of the devil"
John 3:20 says, "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
Hebrews 10:26 says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

1 John 2:3-6 says,
3 "And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: by this we know that we are in him.
6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

1 John 5:12 says, "He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life."
Romans 11:22 says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

"....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
"And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Hebrews 5:9 says, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

Titus 1:16 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48).
41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:23).
"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father [God] who is in heaven."
(Matthew 7:21).
"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).
Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
"26 And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
(Galatians 6:7-9).

"If any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing"
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

"but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17).
"If you love me, keep my commandments."
(John 14:15).
"He that loves not knows not God; for God is love."
(1 John 4:8).
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).


Wow.....this Christianity sure is complicated! Can anybody here put it put I in a nutshell? Something like this——-Love God and live as you please “ Head for the hills,Ma Barker!! Get the smelling salts! There’s gonna be sin galore!! Is there anybody in here with the maturity in their faith to understand what St.Augustine meant?
 
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Buzz_B

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Wow.....this Christianity sure is complicated! Can anybody here put it put I in a nutshell? Something like this——-Love God and live as you please “ Head for the hills,Ma Barker!! Get the smelling salts! There’s gonna be sin galore!! Is there anybody in here with the maturity in their faith to understand what St.Augustine meant?
What is so complicated?

Receiving a free gift does not prevent anyone from neglecting that gift. Most all of us have received free gifts we have just tossed into the corner and let go to waste.

The God i know is not trying to make us mere puppets using his spirit like the strings on a puppet. If you work with him he is willing to work with you. If you ever decide to quit working with him he may gently coax you not to quit but ultimately he will leave it up to you.

What is so complicated about that?

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Don't be deceived by this, "we were powerless", rubbish. We were only ever powerless to achieve but not powerless to desire to achieve:

Romans 7:15 "For I don't know what I am doing. For I don't practice what I desire to do; but what I hate, that I do."

The desire to do right was there amidst that powerlessness as you see in Paul's words above. Is it so difficult to imagine that for some that desire is not there and that for some that desire is only there for a while and then they choose to quit?

Seems quite simple to me.
 
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JIMINZ

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NOn OSAS teaches that we retain our right to choose who we will follow thus are able to return or reject both salvation and God after we have believed unto salvation.
.
How does a Believer unto the point of Salvation, stop and then reject his Belief?

A person who has become a Believer, and has become Baptized, has become a New Creature, he cannot revert back to his former self because, his old man is DEAD he died to the Flesh, he is now alive to the Spirit, and is alive forever.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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What is so complicated?

Receiving a free gift does not prevent anyone from neglecting that gift. Most all of us have received free gifts we have just tossed into the corner and let go to waste.

The God i know is not trying to make us mere puppets using his spirit like the strings on a puppet. If you work with him he is willing to work with you. If you ever decide to quit working with him he may gently coax you not to quit but ultimately he will leave it up to you.

What is so complicated about that?

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


It was tongue-in-cheek , referring to the length of the previous post.Christianity sure is simple.Just Believe The Gospel thAt saves.....1cor15:1-4. Faith plus nothing.
 
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JIMINZ

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Receiving a free gift does not prevent anyone from neglecting that gift.
.
A crucial point your missing is, after receiving the Free Gift of God's Grace for Salvation, the person receiving the Free Gift, has Changed, he has become a New Creature, he does not have the same mentality as he had before, and he has been given a New Nature.

Eph. 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col. 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

That new man does not want to return or neglect it,.....Do you?....Why not?
 
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Buzz_B

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.
A crucial point your missing is, after receiving the Free Gift of God's Grace for Salvation, the person receiving the Free Gift, has Changed, he has become a New Creature, he does not have the same mentality as he had before, and he has been given a New Nature.

Eph. 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col. 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

That new man does not want to return or neglect it,.....Do you?....Why not?
A crucial point you are missing is that transformation to the new creature depends on your willingness:

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

One must accept that responsibility and keep on accepting it. Anything else is the spoiled brat's way of having to have everything handed to him on a silver platter. And God is not trying to make us spoiled brats.
 
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RadiantGrace

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Once Saved Always Saved is a conclusion of Calvinism. The problem is that you aren't assured of anything and anyone who believes in OSAS and claims assurance of their salvation is being dishonest, unless they lack basic reasoning skills. If your explanation for falling away from the faith is that the person never had it to begin with, the only logical explanation, then no one has assurance. People genuinely believed OSAS and that they were saved, lost their faith, and died. Does anyone think you can put a former believer of OSAS on a lie detector and not show they truly did think that?

So you have two choices:
Countless people have made great sacrifices, great testimonies, seemingly consistent with everyone else's experience, when in fact they knew they weren't saved and they were lying (in which case, you need help)
Or... there is no assurance.

Hebrews tells us that faith is the assurance of things hoped for. If you don't have assurance, you have no faith. OSAS is a logical fallacy.

It is also a contradiction to the parable of the seeds. Seeds became plants. They weren't pretending to be plants. They were plants that DIED.
 
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Buzz_B

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It was tongue-in-cheek , referring to the length of the previous post.Christianity sure is simple.Just Believe The Gospel thAt saves.....1cor15:1-4. Faith plus nothing.
James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 
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discipler7

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Well I suppose according to this rendering, you'd be suggesting that, once saved, a person can freely choose to "return the gift" and, thus, lose their salvation.

MacArthur says that if you can return the gift, then you would return the gift. The reason is because you're sinful and "prone to wander".

If you say: "Well not necessarily. I might choose to keep the gift!" Then you are presuming upon your own resolve and faithfulness in order to keep your salvation. This is an arrogant presumption which misunderstands the sinfulness of the human heart.
Seems, those who "falsely" believe in OSAS, think that they are like robots or are super-smart and smug humans able to second-guess God and will never lose their salvation for whatever reasons or whatever deeds, including their sins/evil-deeds.
... Did God create Adam and all humans, eg believers, false believers and non-believers, as robots.?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

1JOHN.2: =
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
.

REVELATION.20: =
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
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JIMINZ

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A crucial point you are missing is that transformation to the new creature depends on your willingness:
.
First off the OSAS Theology only pertains to those who have received it.

The person who after receiving the Free Gift of God's Grace for Salvation, "has Changed", he has become a New Creature, he does not have the same mentality as he had before, and he has been given a New Nature.

The changing is part and parcel of the Free Gift of Salvation.
We are Changed through Baptism unto Newness of life, we are Regenerated, we are Born Again unto the Spirit, it's not a willingness to change it is what does happen.

Were you not Changed?
 
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Buzz_B

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First off the OSAS Theology only pertains to those who have received it.

The person who after receiving the Free Gift of God's Grace for Salvation, "has Changed", he has become a New Creature, he does not have the same mentality as he had before, and he has been given a New Nature.

The changing is part and parcel of the Free Gift of Salvation.
We are Changed through Baptism unto Newness of life, we are Regenerated, we are Born Again unto the Spirit, it's not a willingness to change it is what does happen.

Were you not Changed?
You are wrong. That is the logical fallacy that RadientGrace spoke of. For example, Blood Bought 1953 ended his conclusion saying, "Faith plus nothing." Can you not see that James clearly thought that was a logical fallacy when James said, "O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" There is no such things as faith alone except in the imagination of those who engage in logical fallacies. Something is always required of us. They did not receive a gift of salvation free from having to work to avail themselves to it.

So where are you making your mistake of thinking then? You are forgetting that it had to first begin with something free because being dead in our sins our works had no value with God. He would not even consider our works because we were dead in his eyes due to sin. So the gift was not salvation but the gift was the grace that loved us while we were dead in our sins so that by that free gift of grace we could be returned to life that our works could be considered as having value and thus we would have a chance to secure salvation through our obedience to God as he teaches us how. (This compares to how he told the nation of Israel that he was teaching them to benefit themselves. Isaiah 48:17)

Did I state that plain enough? If you have any further questions just ask. If you understand what i said, then proceed to compare it to Scripture and see that it is so. You will then figure out what you missed.
 
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