Jordan B Peterson, Critical Theory, and the New Bourgeoisie

MoonlessNight

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But we got here by arguing about centrism, and the non-centrists are just as keen to stake their flags to their own respective masts - aren’t those positions on the same sorts of values just as incogent, by the same metric as you’re using here?

My position is simple: if someone claims that equality, or progress, or liberty is coherent in a political context, they are wrong.

I find it utterly baffling that anyone would dream to analyze the question on the grounds of "but what is the centrist and non-centrist" position on the matter? It's irrelevant to the matter of what is true. Did you not understand the examples about bridges that I posted earlier? If someone said "this bridge is about to collapse" would you first say "but what do the extremists think and what do the centrists think"?

That being said, while I find this behavior baffling I don't find it to be surprising. It's a very common practice of centrists to be more concerned with trying to prove that the extremes are bad than with trying to figure out what is true. Thus if you say that something is bad, the response will be "but surely the extremes are worse" no matter how irrelevant or nonsensical that response is in context.
 
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Gadarene

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My position is simple: if someone claims that equality, or progress, or liberty is coherent in a political context, they are wrong.

I find it utterly baffling that anyone would dream to analyze the question on the grounds of "but what is the centrist and non-centrist" position on the matter? It's irrelevant to the matter of what is true. Did you not understand the examples about bridges that I posted earlier? If someone said "this bridge is about to collapse" would you first say "but what do the extremists think and what do the centrists think"?

That being said, while I find this behavior baffling I don't find it to be surprising. It's a very common practice of centrists to be more concerned with trying to prove that the extremes are bad than with trying to figure out what is true. Thus if you say that something is bad, the response will be "but surely the extremes are worse" no matter how irrelevant or nonsensical that response is in context.

Again, not really - it’s an acknowledgement that affiliation to the two wings often doesn’t yield cogent solutions, and hybridising them does.

But then, I’m used to being on the middle ground and being told I have to pick a side. There are no easy answers to the discussions involving those ideas you list - and it’s not like you’re providing any solid alternatives other than spurious claims of incogency. It’s because I’m concerned with what is true that I reject the pigeonholing of left and right (mostly, I do tend to end up slightly on the left, but my views tend to get me hated by both sides - so probably doing something sensible ^_^)
 
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TerranceL

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For example, when Richard Spencer was sucker punched on the street during an interview....and a large portion of the left applauded the act instead of condemning it. I don't like Richard Spencer, I think he's an awful person who has awful racist ideas...but he is a person every bit deserving of the same civil liberties as everyone else.
The stupidest part of the sucker punch is it was the best thing that could have happened to Spencer, before that he was relatively unknown and thanks to the antifa coward he's well known.
 
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Redac

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First of all, labeling leftist as "progressive" doesn't make them so...
Is the claim that progressivism and social liberalism have not been intertwined with the left, especially for the last few decades? That's a really strange claim to make. Or if you're going the route of "we centrists are the real progressives", that's sort of my point.

and a lot of the last two decades of the leftist narrative in this nation has shifted dramatically towards identity politics, which is a huge mistake. Those, aren't just methodology issues...they're ideological issues...which many have seemingly jumped right on board with without any thought.
It kind of depends on why exactly you are opposed to identity politics in the first place. If your problem is that it's not the best way to go about promoting further progress and equality and all that, it's effectively a problem with methods. If you have a fundamental disagreement with the idea of group interests and groups acting to advance their own interests, then you've got a whole different set of issues. I'd have to know your exact stance before I went on further.

I'd say the biggest issue is the left's attack on free speech and the promotion of the idea that shutting down or denying the free speech of others is a legitimate tactic, it isn't. For example, when Richard Spencer was sucker punched on the street during an interview....and a large portion of the left applauded the act instead of condemning it. I don't like Richard Spencer, I think he's an awful person who has awful racist ideas...but he is a person every bit deserving of the same civil liberties as everyone else. To promote the idea that it's legitimate to physically harm those who you disagree with is a slippery slope which inevitably leads to a lack of rational discourse and political violence. That's how incidents like Charlottesville happen. The idea that "hate speech isn't free speech" has been roundly rejected by the supreme court...and rightly so. Once we start putting limitations on these things...you end up in an environment where, like that kid in Scotland, people get jailed over a tweet that was a joke.
Do you take any stronger position on protecting free speech on a cultural level? Or is your position a very strict "the government can't restrict speech" while allowing private entities the power to suppress whatever speech they want?

Secondly, the social justice agenda shouldn't be forced upon children in school. It's political indoctrination...and I really shouldn't need to explain why it's wrong.
Every society will on some level educate its children in the norms and values of that society. I'm not quite sure how you would avoid that.

Grade school students don't need to learn about garbage like "white privilege"...which is at it's core a racist and flimsy concept to begin with. They can learn about it in a humanities course in college if they so choose...but forcing a political agenda down the throats of children is frankly dangerous. The left is setting themselves up for a tremendous backlash on this issue.

Thirdly, the gender issues brought forth by identity politics are dangerous as well. Too manyon the left seem happy to curtail free speech and promote a narrative that has no real scientific basis...and some nations are already having real problems with it. There's a man in Australia, incarcerated for rape or murder or something, who now resides in a women's prison where he is having sex with multiple women incarcerated with him. How did he manage this? He insisted that he identifies as a woman, who happens to be a lesbian, and it would be illegal to deny him this self proclaimed identity. So, because this is how he identifies, he has "gamed" the system. His own family has proclaimed that he is lying about identifying as a woman...and that he's just taking advantage of the law so he can do his time in a relatively non-violent women's prison where he gets to have sex with the other inmates.
I'd never heard of that, but it doesn't surprise me.

Then there's this whole narrative push for the concepts of "collective oppression/guilt" that's being paraded about as if it's something brilliant and new. It's actually quite old and never seems to do anything except damage to a society. Baltimore, after the death of Freddie Gray, is a great example. Baltimore has gone along with this narrative....pushing for the investigation and charging of innocent cops. They did manage to find some corrupt police in the process...which is a good thing...but they used those few bad apples as a justification for restricting the entire Baltimore police. This has, predictably, created an environment where police are either afraid to do their jobs...out of fear of condemnation...or restricted from doing their jobs through policy (a rather sweeping set of ridiculous policies have just recently been passed in Baltimore) and what's the result? Record murder and mayhem within the city. In one school alone...7 children have been murdered in the past year. Can you imagine that? 7. Do you wanna guess what the outcry is? It's "Where are the police? Why aren't the police out in force? Why is there a reduced police presence in Baltimore?"...as if they don't know...
No disagreements here.

I could go on....there's so many ways that the left has been screwing things up in the name of "equality". The Baltimore example is particularly ironic. I get that black parents don't want their children to get unnecessarily harassed, detained, or harmed by police....and they shouldn't. The problem is, when you remove the ability of the police to do their jobs....suddenly your kid is at a greater risk of being murdered by his black peers.

These, of course, are issues with what the left is actually doing...not just the way they are doing it. These sorts of things used to have been debated openly on the left...now if you don't fall into line immediately with the narrative, you're a racist, or bigot, or nazi and you're condemned as part of "the problem". The left used to include intellectuals, scientists, people who weighed the facts before suggesting policy...now it's a bunch of reactionary fools who just virtue signal and jump in line with the loudest voices.

The sad thing is this kind of close minded, narrative driven rhetoric used to be a staple of the right. Now we truly do have a one party system.
This is the sort of problem that arises when you make something as vague as "equality" the driving force of what you do. There never seems to be a point where people are satisfied that true equality has actually been reached, and if you think it's a moral imperative to make things more equal, then you get people who will keep pushing for more and more absurd things.
 
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Redac

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No, I am saying that Richard Spencer and the other hardcore alt-right I have heard sound like right wing SJWS. Seriously, compare what Spencer said in his debate with Styx and Sargon to the demands of blm.
Whenever I hear this, it's one of two things. Either it's said directly to someone as a gotcha ("haha, I just called you this thing you don't like! Checkmate!"), or it uses a definition of SJW that's so broad it includes nearly everyone that isn't an enlightened centrist.

So, given social justice isn't quite what the alt right is about, what exactly do you mean when you say they're basically just SJWs?
 
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FireDragon76

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The stupidest part of the sucker punch is it was the best thing that could have happened to Spencer, before that he was relatively unknown and thanks to the antifa coward he's well known.

Of course. Negative attention is better than no attention for these types of folks.
 
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Redac

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Not necessarily. It isn’t a mere average - as I said, take the good ideas from both, reject the garbage.
And it just so happens that the sum total of the "good ideas" more or less aligns with a softer left wing, early 21st century political ideology? Right.

The garbage often tends to collect at the poles, because that’s where the extremists end up, and good thinkers they usually are not.
It's really strange to reject any kind of hardline position on something simply because it's on one extreme or the other.


Well yeah, I’m not about to go neoreactionary or anything because that’s just dumb.
Right, you're just going to safeguard the status quo and take issue with people further left pushing too hard too fast without really opposing any of the things they've accomplished.

Progress in the broadest possible sense is generally desirable.
Unless you have some specific end goal in mind, how do you propose to advocate for something as vague as progress without giving rise to what we see today?

Does that mean you embrace critical theory, dye your hair neon and go around beating up people you disagree with? Not really.
Why not?

I’m for a social safety net, more so than I was, largely because I think lack of social mobility is one of the things destabilising the west at the moment, and that’s something that’s become increasingly worse over time. I’m generally in favour of technological progress, and allowing businesses to be as free as one can reasonably otherwise be in those sorts of circumstances. I’m increasingly for a constructive version of national pride that isn’t jingoistic or isolationist - and I think the critical theory types have a lot to answer for in souring that discussion.
Let's take the last bit just to keep things streanlined. What sort of national pride do you think would be good, and how does it relate to nationalism more generally? And how has the left soured the discussed, in your view?


No, because as I said, it’s not simply an average of the two poles. The point is to reject the poles as a valid framing of politics.
How exactly do you plan to reject ideas on the extremes if you don't think that those extremes are even valid as such? I'm not quite sure what this even means, tbh.


Progress in what sense? Equality? I’m in favour of it because I see no compelling argument against it, and it tends to allow more individuals to flourish. I’d argue that what we’ve seen recently being put forward in the name of equality isn’t actually equality.
Equality in any meaningful sense is, at best, an unattainable pipe dream.

See, the issue here is that if your societal telos is "equality" or something else equally vague, you're never going to reach it, because inequality is a fundamental fact of our existence. If you combine this with the idea that ensuring equality is a moral imperative for individuals and groups, you are required to keep pushing further and further to fix the inequalities that you see around you.

More pragmatically speaking, even when you correct for legal inequality, people are going to start off in different places. If you're about equality of outcome, this is never going to be a reality unless you artificially ensure that everyone starts on the same footing, which requires large-scale social engineering and enforcing equality of outcome. Why do you think the left does what it does? It sees disparities between different people, and because it largely rejects the fact of inequality among people, it concludes that there is some institutional problem that is creating these disparities. And if they can just fix the problems with the institutions, or with societal attitudes, then these problems should eventually disappear.

A lot of this goes back to some of the problems with the fundamental assumptions of liberalism itself, but that's a much deeper topic.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Is the claim that progressivism and social liberalism have not been intertwined with the left, especially for the last few decades? That's a really strange claim to make. Or if you're going the route of "we centrists are the real progressives", that's sort of my point.

Ok

It kind of depends on why exactly you are opposed to identity politics in the first place. If your problem is that it's not the best way to go about promoting further progress and equality and all that, it's effectively a problem with methods. If you have a fundamental disagreement with the idea of group interests and groups acting to advance their own interests, then you've got a whole different set of issues. I'd have to know your exact stance before I went on further.

I think at it's core identity politics tends to foster an "us vs them" mentality where groups divide up across racial and gender lines and compete for what's seen as a limited set of resources. It's inherently divisive and damaging to the very fabric of society.


Do you take any stronger position on protecting free speech on a cultural level? Or is your position a very strict "the government can't restrict speech" while allowing private entities the power to suppress whatever speech they want?

My position is that free speech laws are equal as they stand and we shouldn't seek to set further restrictions on them. As long as what private entities do is legal...I couldn't care less about them.


Every society will on some level educate its children in the norms and values of that society. I'm not quite sure how you would avoid that.

To stick with the "white privilege" example, we're talking about a relatively obscure academic theory that was created unscientifically as a means for explaining differences in society. It's only been adopted by the left recently and is only brought up to push a political agenda.

Norms and values? Sure. Pushing extreme left wing political narratives? No....that's indoctrination.

It's not that difficult to tell the difference.


I'd never heard of that, but it doesn't surprise me.

I'm sure I can find a link if you're interested. Another example would be the fairly recent incident on Facebook, where a woman took a picture of her bare breasts and posted it. When Facebook took it down citing guidelines...she contested it stating she identifies as a man so she is therefore allowed to post topless pictures. Facebook apologized and put the picture back up, and asked for feedback on how they can avoid this issue in the future.

Of course, the funny part is they cannot avoid this in the future....not without admitting their entire gender policy is a joke.


No disagreements here.


This is the sort of problem that arises when you make something as vague as "equality" the driving force of what you do. There never seems to be a point where people are satisfied that true equality has actually been reached, and if you think it's a moral imperative to make things more equal, then you get people who will keep pushing for more and more absurd things.

It's almost bizarre to watch seemingly rational people argue that because one group and another group don't have the exact same outcomes...there's some kind of "injustice" occurring.

Then these same people will argue that these same groups are "unique" and "diverse" and the inclusion of these unique and diverse groups at all levels of society makes that society greater...by sheer virtue of their unique and diverse aspects. Yet when you point to those unique and diverse aspects as possible reasons why those groups don't have the same outcomes...well suddenly you're labeled racist, sexist, etc etc.

It's a special kind of stupid.
 
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Gadarene

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And it just so happens that the sum total of the "good ideas" more or less aligns with a softer left wing, early 21st century political ideology? Right.

Not really. I’d hardly be recommending business innovation and any form of nationalism if that were the case.

But this is what you get with non-centrists. Anything that isn’t on their extreme triggers them and they assume you’re on the opposing wing from the one they occupy.

It's really strange to reject any kind of hardline position on something simply because it's on one extreme or the other.

You’re right, it would be.

I reject them because most of the time, hardline extremism is just dumb. It’s not a good metric for finding solutions.

Right, you're just going to safeguard the status quo and take issue with people further left pushing too hard too fast without really opposing any of the things they've accomplished.

You’ve seen me posting here, right?

If your idea of pushing hard against the left is blowing off the entirely of the press and voting for Trump, or at least tolerating his excesses because he upsets the SJWs, then yeah, we can do better than that. All that’s being proposed here is one extreme or the other, neither of which are helping. They’ve contributed just plenty to this mess - as has the centre, but the centre at least has the sense and self-awareness to self-reflect and self-criticise.

Unless you have some specific end goal in mind, how do you propose to advocate for something as vague as progress without giving rise to what we see today?

Try reading some my posts in this thread - I’ve made plenty of suggestions to those on the left pushing for the totalist Critical Theory worldview, for starters.


Because those aren’t solutions, and they’re dumb.

Let's take the last bit just to keep things streanlined. What sort of national pride do you think would be good, and how does it relate to nationalism more generally? And how has the left soured the discussed, in your view?

National pride that doesn’t involve framing your nation purely in terms of the positives and ignoring its negatives, and bashing foreigners, or kicking all the foreigners out.

The left has soured the discussion by effectively prohibiting whites from having a sense of pride in their own race. The left awakened whites to their racial identity, and the identity they gave them was that of “scapegoat”.

How exactly do you plan to reject ideas on the extremes if you don't think that those extremes are even valid as such? I'm not quite sure what this even means, tbh.

I said what I did because you insist that centrism involves a drifting centre, based on the current paradigm. It doesn’t, necessarily.

Equality in any meaningful sense is, at best, an unattainable pipe dream.

See, the issue here is that if your societal telos is "equality" or something else equally vague, you're never going to reach it, because inequality is a fundamental fact of our existence. If you combine this with the idea that ensuring equality is a moral imperative for individuals and groups, you are required to keep pushing further and further to fix the inequalities that you see around you.

More pragmatically speaking, even when you correct for legal inequality, people are going to start off in different places. If you're about equality of outcome, this is never going to be a reality unless you artificially ensure that everyone starts on the same footing, which requires large-scale social engineering and enforcing equality of outcome. Why do you think the left does what it does? It sees disparities between different people, and because it largely rejects the fact of inequality among people, it concludes that there is some institutional problem that is creating these disparities. And if they can just fix the problems with the institutions, or with societal attitudes, then these problems should eventually disappear.

A lot of this goes back to some of the problems with the fundamental assumptions of liberalism itself, but that's a much deeper topic.

And as with the last joker, you start with a definition of equality that no-one here is using and then let your keyboard run away with you.

Yawnorama.
 
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MoonlessNight

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And as with the last joker, you start with a definition of equality that no-one here is using and let your keyboard run away with you.

If you really want to convince us that equality is coherent, desirable, obtainable and not a bunch of unprincipled exceptions, you could provide a definition that was:
  • Comprehensive
  • Consistent with what people (or at least people that you agree with) claim to obtain when they talk about "equality"
  • and not a pipe dream to achieve.
So far you have not done this, despite multiple places in the conversation where it would have been beneficial to do so.

Instead whenever a problem is brought up with inequality you respond with some variant of "that's not what people mean by equality" without specifying what people actually do mean by equality. If when we fight for equality we mean that we fight for it except in all the cases where it would be inconvenient, because those don't really count, that certainly looks like a bundle of unprincipled exceptions. If you want to show it isn't, all you need to do is provide a definition that meets the above criteria.
 
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Gadarene

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If you really want to convince us that equality is coherent, desirable, obtainable and not a bunch of unprincipled exceptions, you could provide a definition that was:
  • Comprehensive
  • Consistent with what people (or at least people that you agree with) claim to obtain when they talk about "equality"
  • and not a pipe dream to achieve.
So far you have not done this, despite multiple places in the conversation where it would have been beneficial to do so.

I literally state at the start of post 59 that I’m not talking about the same version of equality as you are, honey. There’s a definition there already - try reading the thread.

I’d also question that the last criterion is there so you can fob off whatever definition of equality is presented to you - either by going but that’s not treating everyone 100% equal all the time, as if that private definition has any relevance - or so you can claim that it will never attain 100% equality and then ignore the definition.

Again, no-one is claiming we are going to reach 100% equality by whatever definition.

Instead whenever a problem is brought up with inequality you respond with some variant of "that's not what people mean by equality" without specifying what people actually do mean by equality. If when we fight for equality we mean that we fight for it except in all the cases where it would be inconvenient, because those don't really count, that certainly looks like a bundle of unprincipled exceptions. If you want to show it isn't, all you need to do is provide a definition that meets the above criteria.

Not at all. You are the one asserting that equality really means that we treat everyone 100% identically. I’m not using that definition - I’d argue few in this debate truly are. But that definition is your assertion - so you need to prove it’s relevant here. Burden of proof is on you.

I’m hardly making an exception when talking about things that aren’t covered by the definition I’ve already put down, and I’m not about to disprove your own straw man of my position. If you want to dispute my ideas about equality, dispute them. So far, you haven’t, and these diatribes of yours are comprised mostly of fallacy.

Again, the extremist screeching itt is proper hilarious ^_^
 
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MoonlessNight

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I literally state at the start of post 59 that I’m not talking about the same version of equality as you are, honey. There’s a definition there already - try reading the thread.



Not at all. You are the one asserting that equality really means that we treat everyone 100% identically. I’m not using that definition - I’d argue few in this debate truly are. But that definition is your assertion - so you need to prove it’s relevant here. Burden of proof is on you.

I’m hardly making an exception when talking about things that aren’t covered by the definition I’ve already put down.

Again, the extremist screeching itt is proper hilarious ^_^

I already explained to you why that definition can't be applied consistently. Besides, you didn't give much a definition in the first place, merely replacing "equality" with "equality of opportunity." That amounts to saying "I'm not talking about equality but a special kind of equality." We already knew that. Be more specific.

(I find it amusing how you seem physically incapable of discussing any issue without framing it as a "centrist versus extremist" thing, but that's another matter. Besides, I doubt it's possible to even explain to you why it's ridiculous to frame everything that way, since you'd likely just to try to find the "extremist" and "centrist" part of the explanation, which is the entire problem in the first place.)
 
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Gadarene

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I already explained to you why that definition can't be applied consistently. Besides, you didn't give much a definition in the first place, merely replacing "equality" with "equality of opportunity." That amounts to saying "I'm not talking about equality but a special kind of equality." We already knew that. Be more specific.

Again, no-one is using your definition of equality.

Show me where equality as you define it has any relevance.

I’ve already been more specific by specifying it as equality of opportunity.

(You’re not really disputing the point about extremists being sucky at providing cogent solutions here. You can’t even put a point down without it containing a misrepresentation or a fallacy.)
 
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Gadarene

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(I find it amusing how you seem physically incapable of discussing any issue without framing it as a "centrist versus extremist" thing, but that's another matter. Besides, I doubt it's possible to even explain to you why it's ridiculous to frame everything that way, since you'd likely just to try to find the "extremist" and "centrist" part of the explanation, which is the entire problem in the first place.)

You’re the one who threw a strop the instant noncentrism was criticised, don’t go blaming me for your overreaction ^_^
 
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MoonlessNight

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Again, no-one is using your definition of equality.

Show me where equality as you define it has any relevance.

I’ve already been more specific by specifying it as equality of opportunity.

(You’re not really disputing the point about extremists being sucky at providing cogent solutions here. You can’t even put a point down without it containing a misrepresentation or a fallacy.)

Serious question: what do you think a definition is?

For example, if you didn't know what a fox was and you asked someone to define it would you accept "well, it's a certain kind of thing" as a definition? Would you accept it as a definition if when you said "maybe that dog over there is a fox" they responded "obviously no one is using that definition of fox!"
 
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Gadarene

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Serious question: what do you think a definition is?

For example, if you didn't know what a fox was and you asked someone to define it would you accept "well, it's a certain kind of thing" as a definition? Would you accept it as a definition if when you said "maybe that dog over there is a fox" they responded "obviously no one is using that definition of fox!"

I’ve already said what it is, and you keep using your own definition to refute it, while claiming only I have to show why my definition is relevant (even though no-one uses your definition!), then you’re accusing me of picking and choosing what equality is, by using your definition and not mine.

I think I’m done here, there’s too much stupidity in your arguments to excavate through ^_^
 
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MoonlessNight

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I’ve already said what it is, and you keep using your own definition to refute it, while claiming only I have to show why my definition is relevant (even though no-one uses your definition!), then you’re accusing me of picking and choosing what equality is, by using your definition and not mine.

I think I’m done here, there’s too much stupidity in your arguments to excavate through ^_^

Just to clarify, please post your complete definition of what you mean by "equality" here.

You seem to be doing your best to dance around referring to it directly (well, that, and spamming your pet insults, but I'll ignore those), and the only post that you referred to is long and contains multiple things which might be considered definitions, but nothing looks like a complete definition. For clarity's purpose let's see the exact definition that you are using.
 
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Gadarene

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Just to clarify, please post your complete definition of what you mean by "equality" here.

You seem to be doing your best to dance around referring to it directly (well, that, and spamming your pet insults, but I'll ignore those), and the only post that you referred to is long and contains multiple things which might be considered definitions, but nothing looks like a complete definition. For clarity's purpose let's see the exact definition that you are using.

Define “complete definition” because you don’t seem to know what that is, and I don’t particularly wish to waste more of my time on you.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Define “complete definition” because you don’t seem to know what that is, and I don’t particularly wish to waste more of my time on you.

For someone who doesn't want to waste your time on me and who has stated in a post before this that you are done, you are rather quick to respond.

In any case it's hard to read the response of "define definition" to a question about how you are defining something as anything other than a transparent dodge. But supposing that you are serious in your question, what I am looking for is that a definition that is comprehensive in that we can apply it wherever we are looking for "equality" in politics.
 
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