Jordan B Peterson, Critical Theory, and the New Bourgeoisie

[KCfromNC]

I'd say he was the first wave. If they keep the stupidity up, the next wave will be larger and may be more unpredictable.

So what's the solution? Give in to the terrorist threats of violence by the extreme right you're talking about?

 

[SolomonVII]

When I was at university the word "bourgeois" was bandyed around a lot. I decided to reject it because I wasn't going to be described in terms of Communist ideology, which is where that word originated, or at least popularised.

The video of Dr Peterson had the interview asking incredulously if Dr Peterson truly believed that the post-modernists Marxist that he was identifying as mainstream Western academia, and the transsexual activists were the same as the communists who murdered tens or hundrends of millions in their purges and their starvations and their gulags. He simply noted that the same identity politics that once identified the bourgoise as the 'enemy of the people' were at work here in the Marxist Identity politics of the post-modernist left.

One part of the interview went into his observations that we share the same neuro-chemical networks that are involved in the same behavioral responses in both mankind and lobsters. In other words, our human nature shows a remarkable consistency that has been present for eons of millions of years, even before trees came to be.

The demonization is the same from the post-modernists against the Oppressing Classes as it was for the Marxists in their demonization of the bourgoise, and then came the purges.
Since human nature has not changed in many basic elements since the times from before we were human, why would we expect the results of the demonization of the Oppressors identified by the post-modernists today to end up in different results than what happened less than one short century ago?
Marxists have been very self-righteous from the start, and they advance their goals through conflict.

 

[Gadarene]

I'd say he was the first wave. If they keep the stupidity up, the next wave will be larger and may be more unpredictable.

...what are you talking about? I don't know what the press over there has been like, but Obama and the Democrats have done far more to destroy racial progress than Trump. Racism was used as a blunt object against anyone who objected to anything he did. Didn't like him spending money like a drunk uncle? RACIST! Didn't like him droning citizens abroad? RACIST! Thought his AG going off about 'his people' (AKA black Americans) sounded a little racist? RACIST! Trump says stupid stuff, but AFAIK nothing that he has said beats Obama injecting himself into the Trayvon Martin case with "muh son" remarks, and turning a tinderbox into a gigantic fireball.

I’ve said plenty about how the left hasn’t helped this debate. That still isn’t an excuse for how the right is currently behaving - which has seen an increase in outright denial that black people and women face any problems at all, and an increase in support for policy that will negatively impinge on the lives of both groups.

 

[Gadarene]

So what's the solution? Give in to the terrorist threats of violence by the extreme right you're talking about?

No, just drop the hypocritical socjus nonsense about how it’s ok to beat up people you disagree with as long as you’re left-wing, say what you like about white people and men no matter how hypocritical it is, mangle the definition of terms like “racism” and “sexism” which gives carte blanche to the preceding, stop pouncing on every femtoaggression while being actively, macroaggressively hostile to groups you’ve dubbed “privileged” - the list goes on.

Equality has to mean equality, and it has to be for everyone. It doesn’t mean we all have the same problems, but we should all be striving for the same outcome in terms of how we treat each other as well as opportunities generally.

The point we are making is you think whites and men are disengaged from the equality debate now? Keep pushing them with this amount of hypocrisy and eventually you’ll long for the days of the support you have now. This isn’t intended as a threat either, simply an observation. I want equality, but what the socjus types are peddling now is not equality. There are plenty of other white men who have just given up on the idea of equality entirely and are looking out only for their own groups - why? Because that’s what the behaviour of other “equality” groups has constituted a lot of the time.

 

[Gadarene]

Can confirm I’ve just bought Peterson’s new book and am looking forward to reading it.

While he is probably too conservative in places for my taste, his willingness to actually stand firm and debate things and to at least try and argue based on fact rather than feelings reminds me of Hitchens, even though they likely wouldn’t have agreed on a lot. We need more people like him, in this age of sneering at expertise, logic and reason from both the far left and the far right.

 

[Gadarene]

Oh and naturally the BUT MUH MEAN TWEETS narrative is in full swing now - the usual deflection.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-peterson-metoo-backlash-latest-a8170031.html

This piece does a twofer and manages to tie it to MeToo because reasons.

We’ve seen this nonsense before:

1. Progressive woman screws up.
2. Progressive woman tries to laugh off the problem, hoping it will go away.
3. When 2 fails, progressive woman then says the problem that was a moment ago hilarious is now threatening behaviour.
4. Progressive woman plays up 3 in hope that desire to RESPEC WAHMEN will drown out her screwup.

And as usual, people are demanding Peterson apologise for the actions of his followers when (a) no proof is ever presented that it’s his followers doing the attacking and (b) I guarantee someone as controversial as Peterson is getting abused daily on twitter, but he’s a conservative male so he doesn’t get to use the above process to garner sympathy and likes. When do progressives like Newman ever have to apologise for the actions of their followers, when it’s someone they don’t like being insulted and disagreed with?

 

[KCfromNC]

The point we are making is you think whites and men are disengaged from the equality debate now?

No, not really. I mean, maybe some are. But this really reads like picking out the most extreme minority views of the left as an excuse to e.g. ignore the fact that the President is saying there are good people among the KKK.

 

[Gadarene]

No, not really. I mean, maybe some are. But this really reads like picking out the most extreme minority views of the left as an excuse to e.g. ignore the fact that the President is saying there are good people among the KKK.

You can write about whites and men - and get published and reblogged/retweeted etc, in the name of equality - in ways that will get you fired if you spoke that way of racial minorities and women. This is not acceptable. This is not an extreme, either - the revisionist definitions of racism and sexism are pretty commonplace within this debate. The existence of those redefinitions de facto downplay the hypocrisy of speaking to whites and men in this way - and when an equality movement engages in hypocrisy (you know, the exact antithesis of its stated core virtue) its credibility will nosedive.

If you want to move away from that, address the problems highlighted. People are not sold on the ideas I’ve highlighted - in no small part because I suspect there’s no actual rational justification for them. Work on that, convince them of those points of view - or abandon those points of view - and we may avoid things getting worse.

The whole problem with the Charlottesville debacle is you had leftists saying it was wrong for Nazis to assault people they disagree with while cheering on antifa, who are incapable of doing anything other than the same.

 

[Rion]

I’ve said plenty about how the left hasn’t helped this debate. That still isn’t an excuse for how the right is currently behaving

My point has always been that you have to shut down both extremes at the same time, or it won't help. My country isn't suffering from "Well, maybe the KKK isn't so bad" anywhere near the same as "But BLM and Antifa are good guys!" I'm not a horse-shoe theory guy, but if you listen to listen to the idiots like Richard Spencer on the alt-right, you'll soon realize something: they're SJWs, just far right instead of far left ones.

which has seen an increase in outright denial that black people and women face any problems at all, and an increase in support for policy that will negatively impinge on the lives of both groups.

Again, yeah, they're right-wing SJWs, and most on the right don't even like them. However, that will change if we do not stop their lefty cousins from continuing to alienate people. It may not sound inuitive to you, but hear me out.

The pendulum is going to swing back to the right, and no one is going to stop that from happening. It was pushed to the left far too hard for far too long. Rather than trying to arrest it completely, the goal should be to stop the forward momentum from pushing it as far right to the right as it has gone to the left. Maybe it is the cynic in me, but I don't think simply rationalizing with people will be that effective to arresting the growth of the far right as trying to rationalize AND eliminating the fuel for the fire.

Think of it like a kingdom where a small, but violent, rebellion breaks out due to corruption and wicked officials. Sure, we need to put down the rebellion before the citizenry are harmed, but if we also don't deal with the root cause of the rebellion as well, the next rebellion won't be as small, and for good reason.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not really one to talk given that he popularised birtherism.

But no, Trump’s support is what the backlash is. People are willing to tear up women’s rights, racial progress etc out of their sense of grievance at the equality brigade.

Some people have turned critical theory into a discourse of violence instead of liberation.

 

[KCfromNC]

My point has always been that you have to shut down both extremes at the same time, or it won't help. My country isn't suffering from "Well, maybe the KKK isn't so bad" anywhere near the same as "But BLM and Antifa are good guys!"

Probably because most people aren't swayed by alt-right propaganda attempts to equate them.

 

[FireDragon76]

My point has always been that you have to shut down both extremes at the same time, or it won't help. My country isn't suffering from "Well, maybe the KKK isn't so bad" anywhere near the same as "But BLM and Antifa are good guys!" I'm not a horse-shoe theory guy, but if you listen to listen to the idiots like Richard Spencer on the alt-right, you'll soon realize something: they're SJWs, just far right instead of far left ones.



Again, yeah, they're right-wing SJWs, and most on the right don't even like them. However, that will change if we do not stop their lefty cousins from continuing to alienate people. It may not sound inuitive to you, but hear me out.

The pendulum is going to swing back to the right, and no one is going to stop that from happening. It was pushed to the left far too hard for far too long. Rather than trying to arrest it completely, the goal should be to stop the forward momentum from pushing it as far right to the right as it has gone to the left. Maybe it is the cynic in me, but I don't think simply rationalizing with people will be that effective to arresting the growth of the far right as trying to rationalize AND eliminating the fuel for the fire.

Think of it like a kingdom where a small, but violent, rebellion breaks out due to corruption and wicked officials. Sure, we need to put down the rebellion before the citizenry are harmed, but if we also don't deal with the root cause of the rebellion as well, the next rebellion won't be as small, and for good reason.

The death of mainline religion corresponds alot with polarization in politics. People have lost even the ability to appreciate moderation and true tolerance. The moral and civilizing grammar has been lost. They've become psychologically fragile and vulnerable to "microaggressions" of all kinds.

 

[Rion]

Probably because most people aren't swayed by alt-right propaganda attempts to equate them.

The alt-right do not like being compared to antifa. Same way antifa don't like being compared to the alt-right.

 

[SolomonVII]

The backlash is like a pressure valve. The more that it is built up, the more extreme the backlash.

If the concerns of those invested in the Tea Party movement had been addressed, we probably would not have had as much support for President Trump. But instead they were demonized by one end of the spectrum and ignored by the other, so we got President Trump. And while it is true that President Trump is part of a backlash, it is different from the type of backlash that we would have gotten had things been different.

Similarly, if President Trump actually is stopped, all that will happen is that we will have a larger and more extreme form of backlash. We'd be extremely lucky if it took any legal form whatsoever.

Whatever can't continue forever won't. But it is by no means certain how it will cease.

My point has always been that you have to shut down both extremes at the same time, or it won't help. My country isn't suffering from "Well, maybe the KKK isn't so bad" anywhere near the same as "But BLM and Antifa are good guys!" I'm not a horse-shoe theory guy, but if you listen to listen to the idiots like Richard Spencer on the alt-right, you'll soon realize something: they're SJWs, just far right instead of far left ones.



Again, yeah, they're right-wing SJWs, and most on the right don't even like them. However, that will change if we do not stop their lefty cousins from continuing to alienate people. It may not sound inuitive to you, but hear me out.

The pendulum is going to swing back to the right, and no one is going to stop that from happening. It was pushed to the left far too hard for far too long. Rather than trying to arrest it completely, the goal should be to stop the forward momentum from pushing it as far right to the right as it has gone to the left. Maybe it is the cynic in me, but I don't think simply rationalizing with people will be that effective to arresting the growth of the far right as trying to rationalize AND eliminating the fuel for the fire.

Think of it like a kingdom where a small, but violent, rebellion breaks out due to corruption and wicked officials. Sure, we need to put down the rebellion before the citizenry are harmed, but if we also don't deal with the root cause of the rebellion as well, the next rebellion won't be as small, and for good reason.

When someone as decent as Romney is trumpeted as an extreme right wing bigot by mainstream people on the left, then the concept of "right wing bigot" loses all of its meaning. Spencer and Romney are now just two peas in the same pod.
The interviewer was doing much the same with Peterson, portraying him as some kind of hater for not addressing people with their preferred pronouns.
Following the facts demonstrated nothing of the sort. Romney never kept any women in binders, and Peterson's fight was against government mandated speech and having words forced into his mouth by a post-modernist agenda that seeks to destroy truth itself.

Once the centre is destroyed, all that remains is the extremes.

 

[KCfromNC]

The alt-right do not like being compared to antifa. Same way antifa don't like being compared to the alt-right.

Less a question of liking it and more that it isn't really effective propaganda. Sure, a few people fall for it the problem doesn't seem to be widespread.

 

[Gadarene]

The alt-right do not like being compared to antifa. Same way antifa don't like being compared to the alt-right.

Both groups are violent authoritarian morons hankering after defunct, genocidal regimes

 

[Gadarene]

Less a question of liking it and more that it isn't really effective propaganda. Sure, a few people fall for it the problem doesn't seem to be widespread.

No thanks. I don't like violent authoritarian morons of either stripe. They are too similar for the liking of many. Stalin fought the Nazis too, let's not hand our country over to idiots sporting the hammer and sickle because there are idiots sporting the swastika.

 

[Gadarene]

Some people have turned critical theory into a discourse of violence instead of liberation.

That's one way of putting it.

For me it's not even that - it's hilarious that an approach that is about critique is so hostile to being criticised itself.

It's "social consequences for thee but not for me."

 

[FireDragon76]

Both groups are violent authoritarian morons hankering after defunct, genocidal regimes

The death of history means that the floodgates have opened to every crackpot idea untempered by wisdom. Fascism and Stalinism are suddenly "cool" in an edgy, if puerile way. It's a South Park approach to ideology.

 

[Gadarene]

The death of history means that the floodgates have opened to every crackpot idea untempered by wisdom. Fascism and Stalinism are suddenly "cool" in an edgy, if puerile way. It's a South Park approach to ideology.

And call me puerile too but if it comes down to a fight between neonazis and the neon-haired permanently-offended brigade, we better learn some German.