Jordan B Peterson, Critical Theory, and the New Bourgeoisie

Rion

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I can't link to the actual news segment because of a few choice words, so I found a piece which covers it, and adds to it. While I'm not a massive fan of Peterson, and I don't entirely agree with the article, the interview/debate was pretty impressive with just how one-sided it was in Peterson's favor, and the piece does bring up several good points:

Jordan B Peterson, Critical Theory, and the New Bourgeoisie - Quillette

But why have these arguments been banished? The immediate answer is social pressure. As social justice advocates have come to dominate Western culture, they’ve created a situation where interlocutors are more intent on burnishing their adherence to the correct opinions than they are about discovering something new, learning the truth, or even engaging in open and reciprocal dialogue. Hollywood actors wear political slogans to awards ceremonies, comedians lecture their audiences rather than entertain them, and television hosts go into battle with their guests rather than interview them. Naturally, this has pushed out opposing voices.

...

Over the past few decades, this group has become increasingly powerful, essentially becoming a bourgeoisie much like the one Marx and the early critical theorists were criticising, and using many of the same mechanisms: suppressing criticism through control of the news media and now social media, enforcing rigid etiquette in speech and behaviour, using the education system to teach its values, and most importantly, representing its own interests as universal values and beliefs.


As the article alludes to, the suppression of these types viewpoints and values is going to cause a massive backlash. People think Trump is bad, but he's honestly pretty mild to what we could end up getting if this doesn't stop.
 

Rion

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He is bad, and is not dissimilar to the people described. It's all about controlling the narrative, even if the narrative is incoherent or grossly hypocritical.

??? Care to elaborate? The interview/debate was probably the longest I've watched of his speeches/debates.
 
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SolomonVII

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He is bad, and is not dissimilar to the people described. It's all about controlling the narrative, even if the narrative is incoherent or grossly hypocritical.
If Trumps ideas were mainstream in the culture, in the elites, in the universities, in the law schools and now the courts, in the cultural media of Hollywood and television, in the media; then the case could be made that he is as bad as what is already happening.
From the Bushes of the Republican elites, through all the main networks(excluding Fox), the preponderance of the message has been against Trump. He is well controlled.
When it comes to post-modernism and the social justice warriors who control the narrative in all the aforementioned venues, Peterson is a lonely voice coming out of that desert.
 
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Gadarene

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As the article alludes to, the suppression of these types viewpoints and values is going to cause a massive backlash. People think Trump is bad, but he's honestly pretty mild to what we could end up getting if this doesn't stop.

You talk as if they’re two different things.

Trump is the start of that backlash.

As I’ve said on other threads - critical theory can be used well, the problem is people who build an entire worldview out of it.
 
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HereIStand

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Interesting quote. A manufactured anti-Trump consensus is a problem in the media. Trump is a threat to the established order. That's why he faces a backlash.

Listening to a book, one idea that I came across recently was the long march through the institutions concept. The idea is not take the government by force through revolution, but to subvert it from within by gaining power in academia, government, and business. Yet all the while retaining a conscious sense of radicalism and subversion.
 
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Gadarene

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Interesting quote. A manufactured anti-Trump consensus is a problem in the media.

Not really one to talk given that he popularised birtherism.

But no, Trump’s support is what the backlash is. People are willing to tear up women’s rights, racial progress etc out of their sense of grievance at the equality brigade.

That they have been hypocritical does not change the fact that this backlash is a profoundly regressive and silly thing to do.

Trump is a threat to the established order. That's why he faces a backlash.

Now there’s a backlash worth getting behind.
 
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archer75

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??? Care to elaborate? The interview/debate was probably the longest I've watched of his speeches/debates.
I meant Trump is bad, not Peterson. Was this a misunderstanding, or did you actually want to hear how I think DT is like the SJWs?
 
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HereIStand

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Not really one to talk given that he popularised birtherism.

But no, Trump’s support is what the backlash is. People are willing to tear up women’s rights, racial progress etc out of their sense of grievance at the equality brigade.

That they have been hypocritical does not change the fact that this backlash is a profoundly regressive and silly thing to do.



Now there’s a backlash worth getting behind.
Trump came rather late to the birther issue, as I recall. It was really kept in the press by the left as a weapon against Obama's critics.

I'm not sure how women's rights and racial progress have regressed under Trump. It is a popular rallying cry and fundraising tactic of the left though.
 
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Rion

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You talk as if they’re two different things.

Trump is the start of that backlash.

As I’ve said on other threads - critical theory can be used well, the problem is people who build an entire worldview out of it.

I'd say he was the first wave. If they keep the stupidity up, the next wave will be larger and may be more unpredictable.

Not really one to talk given that he popularised birtherism.

Nah, he joined it late, likely to keep his name in the papers until he ran.

But no, Trump’s support is what the backlash is. People are willing to tear up women’s rights, racial progress etc out of their sense of grievance at the equality brigade.

That they have been hypocritical does not change the fact that this backlash is a profoundly regressive and silly thing to do.

...what are you talking about? I don't know what the press over there has been like, but Obama and the Democrats have done far more to destroy racial progress than Trump. Racism was used as a blunt object against anyone who objected to anything he did. Didn't like him spending money like a drunk uncle? RACIST! Didn't like him droning citizens abroad? RACIST! Thought his AG going off about 'his people' (AKA black Americans) sounded a little racist? RACIST! Trump says stupid stuff, but AFAIK nothing that he has said beats Obama injecting himself into the Trayvon Martin case with "muh son" remarks, and turning a tinderbox into a gigantic fireball.

I meant Trump is bad, not Peterson. Was this a misunderstanding, or did you actually want to hear how I think DT is like the SJWs?

No, I thought you meant Peterson. I was confused.
 
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archer75

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@Rion To be fair, the "racist" label was obviously overapplied.

To be fair again, many people who approved of the same or similar actions under Bush II had little ability to mask the racism that was the main source of their dislike for Obama.
 
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Rion

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@Rion To be fair, the "racist" label was obviously overapplied.

To be fair again, many people who approved of the same or similar actions under Bush II had little ability to mask the racism that was the main source of their dislike for Obama.

I'd lay it more at the feet of "team" mentality. Trump's done a lot of stuff Obama did... basically abusing the same powers. The difference is about color, but it is blue and red, not black and white. It's like the deficit. You can always tell who is out of power by which side cares about it.
 
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archer75

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I'd lay it more at the feet of "team" mentality. Trump's done a lot of stuff Obama did... basically abusing the same powers. It's like the deficit. You can always tell who is out of power by which side cares about it.
This is fair. I think party hacks are more likely to behave as you describe, while open racists are more likely to behave as I described.
 
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SolomonVII

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I am listening to Shelby Steele on Ricochet. He makes the case that racism in America has been overcome.
And it has. There is nobody making the case for re-segregation, or more specifically for using segregation to oppress blacks.

The politics of racism in America today is more accurately described by Peterson. Racism is a necessary concept for the cultural Marxists of the post-modernist intelligentsia, for selling the narrative of group identity is the means to power for Marxists.

Trump does say racist things, by credible interpretations. They are inflammatory rhetoric with no power behind them. Trump says "****hole, Obama says chicken**** to inflame things. So they are obnoxious!!! So what? Both American and Jewish society are bigger than the racist rhetoric that our leaders sometimes let slip out.
Minorities and women's bigger challenges have nothing to do with racism and sexism. Nobody makes much of a case for oppression any more. This is far different than was the case even in my childhood when segregation and directing women into one job career were taken for granted as correct paths for society to be on. Rather, the case Steele makes is that the biggest problem for his people today is freedom. When oppression is overcome- and "we" have overcome!!, then people are responsible for their own lives. Free people have no one to blame anymore other than themselves, and that can be unbearable actually.

The corresponding story in the Bible is Hagar as she becomes subjected to freedom. She did not know what to do, so she set off her son where she could not much hear his cries and sat down to die, rather than seek and find the nearby watering hole.

For those who are not prepared, freedom is a condemnation. If an oppressor no longer exists, one must be invented. Marxist post-modernists invent oppressors to help people cope with the freedom of America and the West.

The only freedom available to those who have not prepared themselves for freedom is the freedom of a wild ass of a man, forever kicking, but never taking full responsibility like a free man must.
 
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Rion

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There is nobody making the case for re-segregation

There's black and white supremacists who advocate for both. While only the black supremacists have had their wishes endorsed by some colleges, it's still happening with both extremes. That wingnut Richard Spencer actually thinks Da White Boyz can conquer a new land to ship all the black people off too, and wants to release us Redskins into nature, like we're wild animals.
 
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MoonlessNight

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You talk as if they’re two different things.

Trump is the start of that backlash.

The backlash is like a pressure valve. The more that it is built up, the more extreme the backlash.

If the concerns of those invested in the Tea Party movement had been addressed, we probably would not have had as much support for President Trump. But instead they were demonized by one end of the spectrum and ignored by the other, so we got President Trump. And while it is true that President Trump is part of a backlash, it is different from the type of backlash that we would have gotten had things been different.

Similarly, if President Trump actually is stopped, all that will happen is that we will have a larger and more extreme form of backlash. We'd be extremely lucky if it took any legal form whatsoever.

Whatever can't continue forever won't. But it is by no means certain how it will cease.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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When I was at university the word "bourgeois" was bandyed around a lot. I decided to reject it because I wasn't going to be described in terms of Communist ideology, which is where that word originated, or at least popularised.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I can't link to the actual news segment because of a few choice words, so I found a piece which covers it, and adds to it. While I'm not a massive fan of Peterson, and I don't entirely agree with the article, the interview/debate was pretty impressive with just how one-sided it was in Peterson's favor, and the piece does bring up several good points:

Jordan B Peterson, Critical Theory, and the New Bourgeoisie - Quillette

But why have these arguments been banished? The immediate answer is social pressure. As social justice advocates have come to dominate Western culture, they’ve created a situation where interlocutors are more intent on burnishing their adherence to the correct opinions than they are about discovering something new, learning the truth, or even engaging in open and reciprocal dialogue. Hollywood actors wear political slogans to awards ceremonies, comedians lecture their audiences rather than entertain them, and television hosts go into battle with their guests rather than interview them. Naturally, this has pushed out opposing voices.

...

Over the past few decades, this group has become increasingly powerful, essentially becoming a bourgeoisie much like the one Marx and the early critical theorists were criticising, and using many of the same mechanisms: suppressing criticism through control of the news media and now social media, enforcing rigid etiquette in speech and behaviour, using the education system to teach its values, and most importantly, representing its own interests as universal values and beliefs.


As the article alludes to, the suppression of these types viewpoints and values is going to cause a massive backlash. People think Trump is bad, but he's honestly pretty mild to what we could end up getting if this doesn't stop.

I remember a few years back when I read an article where the author explained why they would no longer engage in discussion or debate with "the whites". What should have been admonished for it's racist and close minded position was instead showered with praise and accolades by leftists.

Not long after that, I noticed a heavy dose of doubling down on "collective oppression" and "collective guilt"...which is where I checked out.




The backlash is like a pressure valve. The more that it is built up, the more extreme the backlash.

If the concerns of those invested in the Tea Party movement had been addressed, we probably would not have had as much support for President Trump. But instead they were demonized by one end of the spectrum and ignored by the other, so we got President Trump. And while it is true that President Trump is part of a backlash, it is different from the type of backlash that we would have gotten had things been different.

Similarly, if President Trump actually is stopped, all that will happen is that we will have a larger and more extreme form of backlash. We'd be extremely lucky if it took any legal form whatsoever.

Whatever can't continue forever won't. But it is by no means certain how it will cease.

Exactly what concerns are you talking about?
 
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SolomonVII

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There's black and white supremacists who advocate for both. While only the black supremacists have had their wishes endorsed by some colleges, it's still happening with both extremes. That wingnut Richard Spencer actually thinks Da White Boyz can conquer a new land to ship all the black people off too, and wants to release us Redskins into nature, like we're wild animals.
Sure there are. Sure there are black racists and white racists. Al Sharpton is an example of the former, and you have given his counterpart in the white supremacist du jour movement.

And they are about as irrelevant as any of the sideshow freaks of a Jerry Springer show.

These white supremacists are the people that make up a subset of the schitzophrenic and otherwise mentally challenged. Black race baiters on the other hand play a much more deleterious role, but they do so coming from left field, which is all about Identity more than racial superiority.

But it was only 40 years ago that this segregation was mainstream, both black and white Now, the Jim Crow ideology has been defeated. American society is wide open right now. Western cities in general are wide open when it comes to people living shoulder to shoulder with people from around the world.

It is not that nobody believes some of the racist mumbo-jumbo. It is more than nobody who is anybody important believes in the racist mumbo-jumbo. The only reason that this Richard Spencer has even become a somewhat household name is that he has become associated with the Trump phenomena, and for sure Trump never did make much of an attempt to disassociate himself from "political incorrectness" even when it was inane evil like this Richard Spencer.
But Richard Spencer has no influence in society. He is a wing nut and only wingnuts are influenced by him in the least.

But when it comes to blacks rising in power and influence in society, or women too (which is more what the Peterson interview focused on) if someone is not making it in the world, Richard Spencer as oppressor does not even merit being an excuse. White oppression or male oppression is maybe about number 100 on the list of reasons why there are unequal results when it comes to comparing broad populations.

I think that the only place in North America where segregationist attitudes still hold sway would be in the Native reservation system, which are a total sordid mess.
That is a whole other story though.
 
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SolomonVII

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Trump came rather late to the birther issue, as I recall. It was really kept in the press by the left as a weapon against Obama's critics.

I'm not sure how women's rights and racial progress have regressed under Trump. It is a popular rallying cry and fundraising tactic of the left though.
Women's rights had a chance to make some progress again, as the Weinstein allegations gained some prominence. Going after the bastions of power on the left, such as Hollywood, was the first sign of progress since third wave feminist leaders sided with Bill Clinton against the women he abused.

And with more and more women calling out the anonymous Grace who alternately went between performing sex acts on that comedian and feeling regret, as unworthy of consideration. This is probably the best news of all, for the worst oppression of women today comes from following third wave feminism and the ideas that women will be fulfilled by playing traditional male roles in the hook-up culture.
Yea, Mike Pence has gained some traction there on that one. Formal standards of behavior controlling our libidos in social situations are looking more attractive all the time.

As far as blacks, when it comes to employment, the black unemployment rate has never been so low in the lifetime of any of us, from what I have heard being reported.
The only truly positive social program is a job. Real jobs are coming down the pike, as illegal competition is being curtailed from lowballing wages, and as American companies are finding the stability and tax rates attractive enough to stop outsourcing jobs to the third world.
 
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