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The Pastor King (New)

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do you believe that God's grace comes to people who do these physical "sacraments" and that by doing them they merit grace?

and do you believe by men meriting grace from God by "sacraments" they then have salvation?

if so maybe read ( Epesians 2:8,9 and Mark 7:6-13 et)
Don't believe in any merits. Believe grace is the uncreated energy of God, flowing from the essence of God. Believe we can acquire grace for sanctification from God, according to God's will.
would you say this is how you understand the error of sacraments in your church?

"Salvation is achieved by performing 7 Sacraments during one's lifetime. These are 'Channels' in which we receive God's Grace. "
No. The mysteries are great gifts of God to us, leading unto Eternal Life... just like He says
 
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Your trying to be evasive to hide the heresy,

Do you believe as the Eastern Orthodox do that the

"The Eucharist is at the center of Eastern Christian faith communities, both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic. Orthodox Eastern Christians affirm the real presence in the Sacred Mysteries (consecrated bread and wine) which they believe to be the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ."

If so, this is not what scripture says.

Jesus said,

Matthew 26:26,28
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body...
For
this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

so clearly the bread he was breaking and the cup he was drinking with them was a figure of His body and blood. Because Jesus says this is His blood of the "new testament". But Jesus hadn't died yet so the new testament was not in effects yet."

we read

"15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the
new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth....

20 Saying, This
is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."(Hebrews 9:15-17,20-22 KJV)


and

"11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death"( Isaiah 53:11,12 KJV)

and none were to eat blood literally in the Old and new testament

Genesis 9:4
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 7:27

"Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 17:10

And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

Acts 15:20

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
What is evasive about confessing to believe what Christ says and to obey Him?
 
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LoveofTruth

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What is evasive about confessing to believe what Christ says and to obey Him?
and as often happens you totally ignore the text I show and that clearly expose your religious tradition
 
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"Mysterion" is a reference to all of the great mysteries in the Church. The practice of counting them is not of the early Church, but something that developed in Roman Catholicism. It's sometimes adopted by Orthodox when talking about the mysteries. The proper way to understand the mysteries in the Church is to consider every aspect of Life in the Church to be "mysterion". (Ephesians 5:32)

I looked up about 10 commentaries on the verse and every one said it meant to shut up about the mysteries so I will go with that as it is safer to adopt the views of multiple commentators that all say the same than one who has a different view.
 
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LoveofTruth

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What is evasive about confessing to believe what Christ says and to obey Him?
When Jesus said in John 6 that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life IN them. Do you assume to take him literally there?If not, why not? Should they have tore him to pieces and eaten his flesh and drank his literal blood?

no that would not have given life in them. Jesus said in John 6:63

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

o
bviously Jesus speaks many deep spiritual things that you and many others may not see and understand.

"14 But the
natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."( 1Cor. 2:14 KJV)
 
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I was a Roman Catholic and had to come out of that. My Lord delivered me from it.

one time Jesus said

"6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. 8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
2 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread,
but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
My Lord and your lord are not the same person. I'll do what my Lord says.
 
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I looked up about 10 commentaries on the verse and every one said it meant to shut up about the mysteries so I will go with that as it is safer to adopt the views of multiple commentators that all say the same than one who has a different view.
Shut up about the mysteries... you mean sort of like what I have done in post #223?
 
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wWhen Jesus said in John 6 that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life IN them. Do you assume to take him literally there?If not, why not? Should they have tore him to pieces and eaten his flesh and drank his literal blood?

no that would not have given life in them. Jesus said in John 6:63

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

o
bviously Jesus speaks many deep spiritual things that you and many others may not see and understand.

"14 But the
natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."( 1Cor. 2:14 KJV)
The flesh and blood he commands us to eat is that which is that which is exulted at the right hand of the Father. He is the Life giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15:44-46), and we are to partake of Him. So HIS resurrected and glorified spiritual body "is food indeed" and His blood "is drink indeed" (John 6:55). It is His "spiritual" body and blood, that "quickeneth." When His resurrected body ascended into heaven, gone to be with the Father, it trumps time, so that when He offered it to His disciples at the last supper it really is His body and blood, even then. The created time table does not restrict the power of Christ's glorified humanity.

I just can't understand. How is it that you have the Scriptures right in front of you and yet you can't see what's as clear as can be? Where is all this "spiritual discernment" of yours that you have suggested that I'm lacking in?
 
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Your trying to be evasive to hide the heresy,

Do you believe as the Eastern Orthodox do that the

"The Eucharist is at the center of Eastern Christian faith communities, both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic. Orthodox Eastern Christians affirm the real presence in the Sacred Mysteries (consecrated bread and wine) which they believe to be the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ."

If so, this is not what scripture says.

Jesus said,

Matthew 26:26,28
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body...
For
this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

so clearly the bread he was breaking and the cup he was drinking with them was a figure of His body and blood. Because Jesus says this is His blood of the "new testament". But Jesus hadn't died yet so the new testament was not in effects yet."

we read

"15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the
new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth....

20 Saying, This
is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."(Hebrews 9:15-17,20-22 KJV)


and

"11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death"( Isaiah 53:11,12 KJV)

and none were to eat blood literally in the Old and new testament

Genesis 9:4
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 7:27

"Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 17:10

And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

Acts 15:20

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
These prohibitions against eating blood of animals have nothing to do with consuming the exulted spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:44-46) flesh and blood of God the Word incarnate, Who commands me to do exactly this until He returns (Matthew 26:26), for "My flesh is meat indeed" and "My blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55). So, He is really in the bread and wine of the Communion of the Orthodox Church (1 Corinthians 10:16). It is our Eternal King Himself Who is invisibly (for most) present with us (Matthew 18:20) and Who gives of Himself (in the form of bread and wine) for our consumption when we gather for this purpose. This is my immortal King and God, Who does such things for us. You go ahead and follow a different one if you must, but you really shouldn't.
 
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and as often happens you totally ignore the text I show and that clearly expose your religious tradition
I haven't ignored any texts. I'm fully aware of all of them prior to your pasting them. What I'm not doing is agreeing with this manner in which you're applying them (as in, according to the spiritually misguided thinking that's producing them).
 
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I do follow the Lord. I can see you try to merit grace and earn salvation by what good works you do. That is sad, consider the scriptures you have been given.
You don't follow my Lord. My Lord isn't the same person as yours at this point. Nobody merits grace and earns salvation by what good works they do. Salvation is the free gift of God. But, does one prefer that gift, or sin and death? Salvation is God Himself (John 14:23). We can have God and freedom or we can have sin and enslavement to it - which brings death. The Choice is ours throughout our lifetimes. It's sad if some believe otherwise, considering the Scriptures they've been given.
 
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I was a Roman Catholic and had to come out of that. My Lord delivered me from it.

Roman Catholicism and the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (Orthodox Church) are far more different than you know. My Lord doesn't deliver anyone from His Church. Rather, He brings them to Life in Her.
 
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LoveofTruth

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My Lord and your lord are not the same person. I'll do what my Lord says.
My Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ the saviour of the world who died in the cross for my sin was buried and rise again the third day .

My God is the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost these three are one .

And the Lord never said what you wrongly interpret him to say
 
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LoveofTruth

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The flesh and blood he commands us to eat is that which is that which is exulted at the right hand of the Father. He is the Life giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15:44-46), and we are to partake of Him. So HIS resurrected and glorified spiritual body "is food indeed" and His blood "is drink indeed" (John 6:55). It is His "spiritual" body and blood, that "quickeneth." When His resurrected body ascended into heaven, gone to be with the Father, it trumps time, so that when He offered it to His disciples at the last supper it really is His body and blood, even then. The created time table does not restrict the power of Christ's glorified humanity.

I just can't understand. How is it that you have the Scriptures right in front of you and yet you can't see what's as clear as can be? Where is all this "spiritual discernment" of yours that you have suggested that I'm lacking in?
You are confused

while i believe that all the saints of all time eat the same "spiritual meat" and drink the same "spiritual drink" ( 1 Cor 10:3,4). This is not what the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics do. They say the literal bread and cup becomes the literal flesh and blood of jesus.

You try to twist your way out of it in a bizzar way without scripture. When Jesus took the "bread" and the "cup" or the fruit of the vine. It in no way changed its substance to be his literal flesh and blood. It was a figure, just as all the other types and shadows were in the law. The lamb slain for sin was a figure of Jesus death on the cross. When John the baptist said to behold the Lamb of God as he pointed to jesus. He did not mean jesus was a literal lamb.

Spiritual language is hidden from some.

You try to make up some fiction about this statement you made

"When His resurrected body ascended into heaven, gone to be with the Father, it trumps time, so that when He offered it to His disciples at the last supper it really is His body and blood, even then"

no scripture for this

I believe they eat his flesh and blood by coming to him and believing on him in their hearts. The word is food and faith in His blood is drink. But this is a long talk and a spiritual reality to believers.

However, we are to flee from idolatry. To bow down to and worship anything that is not God is idolatry.

Paul simply says "this bread which we break". He does not say it transubstantiates and becomes literally Jesus body and the cup literally becomes the blood. The supper is done in remembrance of Jesus body and blood.

I also showed you verses in Hebrews that exposed the error many teach in the Eastern orthodox church and the Roman catholic church how that the testament is only in affect at the death of the tester. Jesus hadn't died yet. So the new testament was not in effect.

Yes, God can have men be born again inwardly by His word through repentance and faith in the old and new testaments. But all this inward new birth came through the work of Jesus in time. We know this verse, "thy word was found and I did eat". Jesus said the words that he spoke, they are spirit and they are life.

Either way, the bread is still bread and the fruit of the vine is still the fruit of the vine.

If you think the bread becomes God, the flesh of Jesus literally. The scripture says we don't know Christ after the flesh anymore Paul said that (2 Cor 5:16 KJV).

Also, here’s a proof, take a piece of your bread and another unconsecrated piece, leave them in the wilderness for 2 months and see if your bread and the other bread both corrupt. God will not suffer His holy one to see corruption.

There are so many things to say that can disprove your doctrine, but it goes into a whole different area.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Roman Catholicism and the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (Orthodox Church) are far more different than you know. My Lord doesn't deliver anyone from His Church. Rather, He brings them to Life in Her.
Even Gods people can be in another “Her”

“ Revelation 18 - 4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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You don't follow my Lord. My Lord isn't the same person as yours at this point.
That could be true my Lord doesn’t divide himself as a piece of bread and fruit of the vine

My Lord is the Lord not a piece of bread

“ Proverbs 6 - 26. For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.”
 
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That could be true my Lord doesn’t divide himself as a piece of bread and fruit of the vine

My Lord is the Lord not a piece of bread

“ Proverbs 6 - 26. For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.”
My Lord does divide Himself as bread and fruit of the vine (Matthew 26:26). My Lord says that He is food (John 6:55).
 
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Even Gods people can be in another “Her”

“ Revelation 18 - 4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
This is the quote the demons always use to compel the spiritually unstable to cut themselves out of the Life of the Church so that they can prevent such from ever entering into the "profound mystery" of the Marriage between the Bridegroom and His Bride -- which is Communion (the Eucharistic Meal) (Ephesians 5:32). I talked on this point in another thread earlier, excerpted below:

"Theosis must not be a mere concept. It must be Lived. But ancient Christianity is so alien a religion to the typical child of the radical reformation that, unfortunately, most wouldn't be able to recognize it as Christianity. I know from my own personal experience that the enemy spirits are able to quickly bring to the attention of outsiders to many aspects of Orthodox Christian worship which are very easily mistaken for what they are not. This they do in order to prevent entry into the Church, so as to prevent, or at least limit that person's Theosis. I've heard demon's shouting Scripture at certain people as they look at Orthodox worship from the outside of the Life in the Holy Spirit, crying out in a mighty voice: 'Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a lair of demons. She is a haunt for every unclean spirit, a hideout for every unclean bird, and a hold for every detestable beast... Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.…' (Revelation 18:2-4)"

Plenty have heeded such voices."

@LoveofTruth, is it not so that you've succumbed to prelest so as to be wrestled away from the "profound mystery" of which the Apostle Paul points to in (Ephesians 5:32) before ever having experienced it for yourself? Don't you think that maybe you ought to consider this possibility, seeing as how we do not wrestle with "flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" ? (Ephesians 6:13)
 
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You are confused

while i believe that all the saints of all time eat the same "spiritual meat" and drink the same "spiritual drink" ( 1 Cor 10:3,4). This is not what the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics do. They say the literal bread and cup becomes the literal flesh and blood of jesus.

You try to twist your way out of it in a bizzar way without scripture. When Jesus took the "bread" and the "cup" or the fruit of the vine. It in no way changed its substance to be his literal flesh and blood. It was a figure, just as all the other types and shadows were in the law. The lamb slain for sin was a figure of Jesus death on the cross. When John the baptist said to behold the Lamb of God as he pointed to jesus. He did not mean jesus was a literal lamb.

Spiritual language is hidden from some.

You try to make up some fiction about this statement you made

"When His resurrected body ascended into heaven, gone to be with the Father, it trumps time, so that when He offered it to His disciples at the last supper it really is His body and blood, even then"

no scripture for this

I believe they eat his flesh and blood by coming to him and believing on him in their hearts. The word is food and faith in His blood is drink. But this is a long talk and a spiritual reality to believers.

However, we are to flee from idolatry. To bow down to and worship anything that is not God is idolatry.

Paul simply says "this bread which we break". He does not say it transubstantiates and becomes literally Jesus body and the cup literally becomes the blood. The supper is done in remembrance of Jesus body and blood.

I also showed you verses in Hebrews that exposed the error many teach in the Eastern orthodox church and the Roman catholic church how that the testament is only in affect at the death of the tester. Jesus hadn't died yet. So the new testament was not in effect.

Yes, God can have men be born again inwardly by His word through repentance and faith in the old and new testaments. But all this inward new birth came through the work of Jesus in time. We know this verse, "thy word was found and I did eat". Jesus said the words that he spoke, they are spirit and they are life.

Either way, the bread is still bread and the fruit of the vine is still the fruit of the vine.

If you think the bread becomes God, the flesh of Jesus literally. The scripture says we don't know Christ after the flesh anymore Paul said that (2 Cor 5:16 KJV).

Also, here’s a proof, take a piece of your bread and another unconsecrated piece, leave them in the wilderness for 2 months and see if your bread and the other bread both corrupt. God will not suffer His holy one to see corruption.

There are so many things to say that can disprove your doctrine, but it goes into a whole different area.
Thank you, but I'm already thoroughly knowledgeable about this heresy you've embraced and all of the Scriptures that the demons who invented it provide to those whom they have convinced to ascribe to it.

But you are horribly mistaken. The Living Christ is present in the very meal of bread and wine that he imparts to us while He is present with us in our Eucharistic gathering. He is there, where two or more of us are gathered in His name, in the midst of us, imparting to us His most pure body and His most precious blood, just as He did with His disciples at the last supper. This Communion really is the participation in His body and blood (1 Corinthians 10:16). It is also a commemoration of Christ (i.e. do this in remembrance of me). But it is far more than that. It is a "profound mystery", which the mind can never comprehend.

By this heresy of yours, you have denied the mystery and replaced it instead with a mere rational construct. The Divine mystery to be experienced and not understood is now become for you only an abstract concept, defined within your brain. You have circumscribed the un-circumscribable God, instead of experiencing God in the "profound mystery" of Communion.

You ought to know better than this. I thought you were a Christian who knows Scripture and is spiritually discerned.
 
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My Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ the saviour of the world who died in the cross for my sin was buried and rise again the third day .

My God is the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost these three are one .

And the Lord never said what you wrongly interpret him to say
The Christ said exactly what He said. He did not say "This bread represents my body and that which is in this cup represents my blood". He said "This is my body, and this is my blood". If you don't accept and obey what He says then you are denying Him and have chosen to follow after an antichrist, as described here: "there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them" (2 Peter 2:2). And here: "Anyone who runs ahead without remaining in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9). And here: "... many deceivers have gone out into the world, refusing to confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." (I bolded this saying especially, because your heresy of denying the real presence of Christ in the flesh in the Eucahristic meal is very closely related to the spiritual affliction that produced this gnostic heresy of old).(2 John 1:7).

But this is how we know that your not at this time a follower of my Lord, but are as described here : "They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth." (1 John 2:19-20)

With this heresy of yours, you have joined your spiritual kin as described here:

"From that time on, many of His disciples turned back and no longer accompanied Him." (John 6:66)
Note the numerical coincidence. Is it not the number of Anti-Christ? These disciples would not eat the flesh of our Lord or drink His blood. Just like you.
 
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