The Pastor King (New)

[truefiction1]

No, this is not accurate

And I expose your Orthodox Church simply using the order found in scripture

The ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church IS that which is espoused in the Scriptures. It is the same Church and of the same Christological and Pneumatological conciliar ecclesiology, and governed with the same principles and recipes that Viola identifies in "Who Is Your Covering". What Viola fails to understand is that even with such an ecclesiology there will always be failures of some people who are members and even leaders in the Church to truly live according to the tenants of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

Take Arius of Alexandria, for example: The Orthodox Christian presbyter and ascetic who in the 4th century began to teach, against Church Tradition, that Jesus Christ is Son of God in name only, because He is not without beginning, as God the Father is, but rather, is the first created being that the Father made. Christ, according to Arius, does not share in the Divinity of God. The Father alone is God.

This teaching, that questioned the Divinity of Christ, became the source of the greatest Theological controversy and uproar that the Church had ever suffered in Her 300+ years. A council of the Church was convened to settle the dispute. Many bishops, priests, deacons, and lay ministers attended, and the council denounced the teaching and the person of Arius and all who taught as he did about Christ. The council defined the Divine nature of Christ and His relationship to the Father.

Still, the controversy raged on for many decades after. The Arian teaching about Christ lingered and possessed the minds of many Christians. We see that the denial of Christ's Divinity has been done many times throughout history since the dawn of the Church. Most claim that the Christian Isaac Newton (famous physicist) did not believe in the Trinity. Present day Christian cults like Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity. I have encountered Christians right here in Christian Forums who don't believe in the Trinity. Then there are Christians who commit grave sins against God and others: Abuse of all kinds against people and even torture, rape, and murder. These grave deeds are done by people physically present in the Church as members whether lay people or bishops, priests, deacons, or whatever. No body of religious followers is immune from succumbing, at least in part, to the evils of fallen humanity. Christ Himself taught this about the Church, in His parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:25).

Your "house churches" are not immune to these problems either. Your own religious body will suffer the same fate sooner or later. Some members will become disillusioned with the group because of the flaws or lack of spiritual integrity on the part of its leaders and members. they will become critical and judge those around them in the group as not living according to New Testament standards, and they will leave and form their own groups. This happens and will continue to happen because the enemy is relentless and the sinful nature of Christians that is hidden behind the "log in their own eye" is a powerful factor of influence in the Church. I have already told you of your own victimization by the enemy, because of the "log in your own eye". The goal of the enemy is to "invalidate" the Gospel by invalidating the Church in the eyes of as many as they can. Getting Church people, especially Church leaders, to commit grave sins comes is one form of attack, getting others to leave the Orthodox Church on account of disputes over Who God is and what the Gospel is, is another. If the overall picture of Christianity is chaotic and ugly, the enemy is pleased, because he knows that more and more people will reject the Gospel on account of that picture. Your beliefs about the ancient Orthodox Church -- planted by God's enemy -- are only helping to make the picture more grotesque. But that's not all. The enemy is able to prevent you from becoming a "partaker of the Divine nature" by keeping you separated from certain truths that you need to learn. That Truth is in the Life of the Church. That Life is of the Holy Spirit, the Son, and the Father.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Your beliefs about the ancient Orthodox Church -- planted by God's enemy -- are only helping to make the picture more grotesque..

First of all, you don't really know all my beliefs about your so called "orthodox church". I see your religious form as perhaps a small step away from the Roman Catholic Church.

The errors in many assemblies today fight against the commands and order of God in the church.

That Truth is in the Life of the Church. That Life is of the Holy Spirit, the Son, and the Father.

The very life and function of the church is affected greatly by the one man show of the pastor or priest exalted over all. The very forms you have in your gatherings and many other fights against the life and function of the church and the manifesting of that life in Christ among believers.

If everyone in the assembly cant freely minister and share and use all their gifts at any time in the gatherings then you have a form of godliness but deny the power and your assembly quenches the spirit. Especially when they have a one man pastor, or priest over the entire assembly who binds them up under the traditions of men and does not allow freedom and has the pre eminence over all.

What I say is reminding you of the "commandments of the Lord \" for church order ( 1 Cor 14:26-38 etc) this is not an option. If your assembly does not allow this order of God and the freedoms, then they fight against the commandments of the Lord no matter what so called "orthodox" idea you claim. The ancient truths I speak are from scripture and the first apostles to set the order. Not from some so called "church fathers" later or other man made traditions that entered in.

The very fact that you venerate "icons" shows how far your church has gone from the true church. Don't get me started on the Roman Catholic Church, that would be 10 hours of talk just for starters.

so tell me what is the name of the religious form you gather with, the so called "name your church". I know it is a so called "Eastern Orthodox". But what is the specific place you go. I can do some investigating and see how much you fight the order of God and his commands by examining what you do when gathered and the order and the by laws of man, if there are any that you use etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church IS that which is espoused in the Scriptures.

Some people ( perhaps you also) look at the large buildings around them, the history of their tradition and the people that come regularly to their religious forms and think that this must be right, we have all this how can we be wrong. But they judge by outward appearance as many do. Many Roman Catholics might think similar thinking that they are the biggest most popular and they have the Pope and the vatican and religious buildings all over and tons of people, so how can we be wrong? They judge by outward appearance as many do today.

This is wrong and a dangerous way (spiritually) to act.

We must see the truth by the Spirit and the body and the holy scriptures. If we see in scripture that God commands that every believer is to wait on God and use their gifts and edify one another whenever they come together, then they should do this and allow such freedom. But if they have on man over all and the body ministry is quenched by the form and religious rituals and so called "sacraments" etc, then they should reject those man made traditions and follow after Christ and the commands of God for the church order. and consider

"God’s Order and Man’s Order

God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and sets the order in the gatherings, (Titus 1:5, Col. 2:5, Psalm 37:23, Eph. 4:15,16, 1 Tim 3:15, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Cor. 11:34, Heb 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27). No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and the dominion of exalted leaders.

Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s carnal mind and human wisdom, and by what they know naturally ( 1 Cor 2, Jude 1:10) and is regulated by the modern pastor role, programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world.

Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. God’s order is very different than mans order and traditions in the church.

 

[FireDragon76]

You seem to focus on churches as needing to be perfect institutions, as if somehow an imperfect church inhibits the Gospel being preached. It doesn't. Unworthy ministers can preach the Gospel, because the power of the Gospel is in the Gospel itself, not in the minister.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You seem to focus on churches as needing to be perfect institutions, as if somehow an imperfect church inhibits the Gospel being preached. It doesn't. Unworthy ministers can preach the Gospel, because the power of the Gospel is in the Gospel itself, not in the minister.

I don't think churches should be organizations or institutions. But a living organism and vibrant functioning body under Christ headship.

As far as them being perfect, well God gave apostles, prophets evangelist, pastors and teachers for the "perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.

and if a elder or any believer is "unworthy". That word must be clarified. If they are in open sin and unrepentant, that is a different issue. Then that sin rebuke before all that other also may fear. And they must be blameless as Paul defines in the qualifications. Yes awe all sin and have weaknesses. But these also have to be dealt with and fixed.

As soon aspPaul saw that peter and others did not walk uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel he withstood Peter to the face for he was to be blamed. Paul is such an admirable man in the Lord. Thank God for his boldness and love and faith.

 

[FireDragon76]

Paul did not merely critique Peter's imperfections, he saw Peter's behavior as attacking the heart of the Gospel. That is the only reason we should call out anyone.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul did not merely critique Peter's imperfections, he saw Peter's behavior as attacking the heart of the Gospel. That is the only reason we should call out anyone.

thats not the only reason. Paul says those that sin rebuke before all. Paul called out the entire body in 1 Cor 5 for allowing a man who had sex with his fathers wife and they thought they were so gracious and loving for doing nothing about it. Paul said he judged already concerning him that hath done this deed and he rebuked them for not judging in the church.

We see many examples when Paul calls out men. 2 Cor 11 Paul calls out the false apostles and exposes them for being men who exalt themselves over the church and bring men into bondage and devour them and smite them on the cheek.

Paul warns of others by name who taught false doctrine etc. I could go on all day with verses where many are called out for many reasons. Paul rebukes some for much smaller offences as well

 

[truefiction1]

Some people ( perhaps you also) look at the large buildings around them, the history of their tradition and the people that come regularly to their religious forms and think that this must be right, we have all this how can we be wrong. But they judge by outward appearance as many do. Many Roman Catholics might think similar thinking that they are the biggest most popular and they have the Pope and the vatican and religious buildings all over and tons of people, so how can we be wrong? They judge by outward appearance as many do today.

This is wrong and a dangerous way (spiritually) to act.

We must see the truth by the Spirit and the body and the holy scriptures. If we see in scripture that God commands that every believer is to wait on God and use their gifts and edify one another whenever they come together, then they should do this and allow such freedom. But if they have on man over all and the body ministry is quenched by the form and religious rituals and so called "sacraments" etc, then they should reject those man made traditions and follow after Christ and the commands of God for the church order. and consider

"God’s Order and Man’s Order

God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and sets the order in the gatherings, (Titus 1:5, Col. 2:5, Psalm 37:23, Eph. 4:15,16, 1 Tim 3:15, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Cor. 11:34, Heb 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27). No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and the dominion of exalted leaders.

Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s carnal mind and human wisdom, and by what they know naturally ( 1 Cor 2, Jude 1:10) and is regulated by the modern pastor role, programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world.

Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. God’s order is very different than mans order and traditions in the church.

It is God's order, not man's order, that is found in the Orthodox Church.

The whole "The Pastor King" notion about the Church is a lie. For while there are some pastors whom we can say are fallen from grace and sinfully corrupt, this is usually the exception rather than the norm. Orthodox pastors (the bishops and presbyters in the Church) in general are just beggars looking for where the bread is like every other Orthodox Christian committed to worshiping God and Living the Life of the Gospel of Christ. Presbyters aren't compensated all that well, and so must struggle to support and care for their families just like any other middleclass or lower middle class family. Some presbyters work part time or even full time jobs while serving as presbyters. Yet they still must minister to the needs of the church. Deacons aren't paid at all, work full time jobs, attend to all gatherings for worship, some teach, some preach, some minister to the sick who are homebound, some manage the various donations given by members, and etc. Bishops, on the other hand, carry such work loads directly related to their service in the Church that few people could bear the weight of such responsibilities. They aren't rich and even if they were the would not have the time or the energy for it to be of any importance to them -- they're far too occupied with the worship of God by "visiting widows and orphans in their affliction" and "keeping themselves unpolluted by the world".

This "king pastor" picture that is being painted as a portrayal of the pastoral ministry in the Orthodox Church is a lie, because it fails to show the whole picture of what is really going on in the Life of the Church. Instead, it focuses only on the "splinter" in the eye of the Church, and uses the gigantic log that is in many people's eyes to hide the Godly service of Orthodox pastors out of sight. To take such a small fragment of the whole picture and crop it out, then go around telling everyone you can that it is the whole picture... well, that is the sort of technique that the enemy has been using against mankind from the very time he used it on Eve and then Adam in the garden of Eden.

 

[truefiction1]

Orthodox pastors have been arrested for being leaders in the Church, they have been subject to great physical and mental hardships, have been exiled to frozen prison labor camps as laborers, have become riddled with painful afflictions and illnesses as a result, they have been starved, strangled, had their eyes gouged out, their tongues cut out, had their fingers, toes, hands and feet cut off, have been skinned and burned alive, and have endured all manner of the most cruel forms of torture and been murdered for being "servants" in the Church.

How come your "king pastor" story doesn't recount any of these things about Orthodox Christian pastors? Is it because you've never been aware of the True Faith of these pastors, who are too numerable to list here?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Orthodox pastors have been arrested for being leaders in the Church, they have been subject to great physical and mental hardships, have been exiled to frozen prison labor camps as laborers, have become riddled with painful afflictions and illnesses as a result, they have been starved, strangled, had their eyes gouged out, their tongues cut out, had their fingers, toes, hands and feet cut off, have been skinned and burned alive, and have endured all manner of the most cruel forms of torture and been murdered for being "servants" in the Church.

How come your "king pastor" story doesn't recount any of these things about Orthodox Christian pastors? Is it because you've never been aware of the True Faith of these pastors, who are too numerable to list here?

I believe I did address such godly men, even though they are in a wrong position I said

"Though there are blessed pastor giftings in the body of Christ, (just as there are apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers), the modern role of the exalted “Pastor” over all does not exist biblically and is a dangerous distortion spiritually to the church. Many of those in this unbiblical role may be true believers and loving men with sincerity and have many good qualities, Others may be seeking their own glory and reputation. But either way they are still in error in this exalted role and they still hinder the body from functioning in Christ.

Despite the confusion of many religious forms today and the multitude of believers who gather in them, with the exalted Pastor over all, their various spiritual moments, evangelistic aspects and some good ministration seen in many of these gatherings, there is still a great problem in the churches and it must be corrected and set in God’s order."

I would not assume to know the hearts and faith of any in the past. But those who suffer for Christ are my brothers and sisters. I love all the christian people I meet. But real love will tell them the truth and try to help them not to fight against God's order and hinder the saints and have forms without power etc

 

[truefiction1]

I believe I did address such godly men, even though they are in a wrong position I said

"Though there are blessed pastor giftings in the body of Christ, (just as there are apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers), the modern role of the exalted “Pastor” over all does not exist biblically and is a dangerous distortion spiritually to the church. Many of those in this unbiblical role may be true believers and loving men with sincerity and have many good qualities, Others may be seeking their own glory and reputation. But either way they are still in error in this exalted role and they still hinder the body from functioning in Christ.

Despite the confusion of many religious forms today and the multitude of believers who gather in them, with the exalted Pastor over all, their various spiritual moments, evangelistic aspects and some good ministration seen in many of these gatherings, there is still a great problem in the churches and it must be corrected and set in God’s order."

I would not assume to know the hearts and faith of any in the past. But those who suffer for Christ are my brothers and sisters. I love all the christian people I meet. But real love will tell them the truth and try to help them not to fight against God's order and hinder the saints and have forms without power etc

I already refuted this whole idea in post #188. The role of pastor in the Orthodox Church is not any "exalted over all" role. David Koresh, Jim Jones, other such false prophets with their little start-up sectarian cults full of followers are exulted by their disciples. Orthodox presbyters may be exulted in the eyes of a couple of "needy" members of a parish, but most members understand that they are just "brother beggars looking for the Bread of Life" like everyone else in the Church. The presbyters have their own faults and flaws and most members become aware of those. Every member has a role and all roles are needed. There's no place for lack of order in the Church though, so their has to be an "elder" (presbyter) in charge of each small parishes (congregations), and sometimes their has to be multiple presbyters in especially large parishes. That is all.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I already refuted this whole idea in post #188. The role of pastor in the Orthodox Church is not any "exalted over all" role.

The role the modern pastor, priest, clergy, Bishop etc. takes over all is an exalted role and unbiblical. Just read some of the man made constitutional by-laws and see who the entire ministry is. Its this one man called the "pastor" or "priest". I posted some things about this already.

Plurality of elders in every church is the biblical order and model we see in scripture, never a one man pastor over all in the New Testament. Unless you are saying Jesus is the one man over all. He alone is the head of the church as scripture clearly says.

David Koresh, Jim Jones, other such false prophets with their little start-up sectarian cults full of followers are exulted by their disciples.

These are just a small sample of the kind of false authority that can come from such a role over all. The Popes and priest over all can also have such misguided dominion over others.

Plurality of elder in every church is the biblical order and model we see in scripture, never a one man pastor over all in the New testament. Unless you are saying Jesus is the one man over all. He alone is the head of the church as scripture clearly says.

Orthodox presbyters may be exulted in the eyes of a couple of "needy" members of a parish, but most members understand that they are just "brother beggars looking for the Bread of Life" like everyone else in the Church.

I think most of the so called Priest or pastors tend to be in a role that exalts them. Even if they are humble men this can be tempting. And I believe most of the assemblies look at these men as supreme in authority over them and in dominion over them and in control of them. Some of them call themselves "masters" of divinity. But Jesus said call no man master or father. He said this for a good reason.

Jesus Christ alone is the head of the church, not man. And all believers area royal priesthood, not a special priest over all like OT priesthood.

Here is a sample of an Eastern Orthodox man made By-Law and this is not scriptural , even the idea of making laws for such things is not.

"
ARTICLE III — PARISH

In accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, the Bishop is the Diocesan Authority and the head of this Parish and its Parish Priest and all the Parishes which constitute his diocese. He appoints this Parish's clergy, maintaining with them a relationship that is at once hierarchical and conciliar, marked by obedience and collaboration. He has the obligation and right of visitation to the parish and receives and approves regular reports on parish life. In case of conflict and disorder within the Parish, he takes all necessary measures to resolve them consistent with the Sacred Canons and the Statute.

This Parish, having been established by decision of the Diocesan Bishop, is a local Orthodox Eucharistic community with a vision for proclaiming the Kingdom of God and making its healing presence felt in the world, having as its head a duly appointed Parish Priest and consisting of Orthodox Christians who live in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, comply with the discipline and rules of the Church and regularly support their Parish. Being subordinate to the Diocesan Authority, it is a component part of the Diocese (Article VII, the Statute) and a component part of the Deanery and subordinate to the District Dean (Article XI, the Statute).

"
ARTICLE IV — PARISH PRIEST

The Parish Priest, also referred to as rector or priest-in-charge, by virtue of his ordination and canonical appointment, serves as the spiritual father and teacher of that portion of the flock of Christ entrusted to him, the first among the Parish clergy, and presides over liturgical worship in accordance with the tradition and the norms of the Church.

By virtue of the authority delegated to him at his appointment by the Diocesan Bishop, the Parish Priest, as head of the parish, shall:

i Teach, exhort, and edify the faithful entrusted to his spiritual care with compassion to enable them to grow in sanctification and maturity in the faith;

ii Provide for the administration of the sacraments and the celebration of all liturgical services;

iii Ensure that all activities including educational, evangelistic, philanthropic, social, and cultural activities within the Parish or of the Parish are consistent with the compassionate and ‘myrrh-bearing’ mission of the Church;

iv Head and administer the Parish consistent with the provisions of the Statute, the governing documents of the Diocese and Parish, and the directives of the Diocesan Authority in cooperation with the Parish Council. No activities in the Parish can be initiated without his knowledge, approval, and blessing; neither should he do anything pertaining to the Parish without the knowledge of the appropriate Parish bodies, so that always and everywhere there may be mutual trust, cooperation, unity, and love, thus endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Ephesians 4.3);

v Normally preside over the Parish Assembly and Parish Council, except in cases when the Bishop is present or when the Bishop’s delegate is present for this purpose;

Page 8 of 27

vi Head the Parish office and be entrusted with the care, custody, and maintenance of sacramental and administrative records, inventories, and the official Parish seal; and

vii Represent the Parish before local civil and judicial authorities and other third parties, either personally or through his delegate.

The Parish Priest shall be at liberty to be present at all Parish meetings, councils, groups, and gatherings. He is a Voting Member in good standing, a member of Parish Council and all other councils, groups and gatherings ex officio ecclesiae.

The Parish shall compensate the Parish Priest. His compensation shall be determined according to established diocesan procedures and norms. His compensation is to be clearly agreed upon prior to his appointment.

The Parish Priest possesses the rights and exercises the responsibilities stipulated by the Sacred Canons, the Statute, and the directives of the Holy Synod and the Diocesan Authority.

The Parish Priest cannot vacate his Parish, change his status, or seek to transfer to another parish or Diocese without the permission of the Bishop. "

ARTICLE VIII — PARISH ASSEMBLY

..."Since it is the sacred duty of the Parish Priest to guide the whole life and all activities of the Parish for which he is responsible before God:"

(https://www.myrrhbearers.ca/sites/default/files/Parish Bylaws.pdf)

Im not sure if this is similar to your assembly laws. If not show me where I can see the so called "By-Laws" of your assembly of the "Eastern orthodox church"

Such "By-Laws" I believe are unbiblical in many parts. I could spend hours exposing so much of this as against the order and functioning of the church and the commands of Jesus. Maybe I will do this soon,Lord willing.

Every member has a role and all roles are needed.

I am sure that if I were to watch your order and listen and see how you gather and function. You would be similar to many and if not worse than some in your order. The body ministry would be almost nil and non functioning on a Sunday gathering. According to scripture every part of the body can minister and be led by God in any gift he has given in the function he has given them when they come together. I could quote many of the commands of God for this order. It is the opposite of mans order that quenches the spirit and sets up exalted men in control and dominion over others with a false authority.

I could ask you, when you come together can anyone at any time have something from God and be encouraged by scripture and the Spirit of God to share it? Or does your assembly order go something like this,

The people walk into a large man made building decorated with a steeple or two unbiblicaly called "the church". There is a sign on the lawn with a name on it. They come in and sit or stand and there. Someone might give you a program and the entire order is preplanned sometimes to the minute leaving no room at all for body ministry in the spirit. There may be two or three or more songs on the program then may be an announcement and scripture reading by the clergy and a liturgy and sermon from the text. There e will be sacramental things done with the Eucharist and communion, perhaps, then maybe an announcement and they all leave and shake the hand of the Priest who was in total control of the entire gathering. And all the time there are icon pictures surrounding the people that they can look at at any time during the man made forms and rituals.

I ask, where is Jesus in such an order? Is Jesus and the leading of the Spirit on the program?. Is he outside knocking wanting to come in and sup with all and to participate with all? Where is every one who gathers on the program? Are they able to have a slam a doctrine a revelation, a tongue a prophecy a word of wisdom or knowledge? Are the apostles prophets evangelist, pastors and teachers able to freely use their gifts at any time as they are led by God and commanded to be free to do when gathered? or would they be carried out by someone called an "usher"?

Scripture rebukes and warns against such a man made gathering and shows the true order in the spirit and as led By God (1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:101,11, Colossians 2:8,9, Colossians 3:15,16, Ephesians 4;11-16, 1 Thess 5:11, 1 Cor 12:7 and on, Romans 12;1-8 etc etc)

There's no place for lack of order in the Church though, so their has to be an "elder" (presbyter) in charge of each small parishes (congregations), . That is all.

This is the big issue.

The man-made order which puts men in control others and you are saying they need man and this order to function. But Paul spoke of the order of God and it is a spiritual order as led by God in every believer. Only God can give men gifts and only God works in every believer to make them perfect unto every good work (Hebrews 13:2-0,21) . Paul says that all things should be done decently and in order. But this order was not mans order. One time Paul said he beheld another church order in the spirit even though he wasn't there physically.

What you and many say to try and keep this order of man is that you need a man to CONTROL all things in the assembly. This is exactly what the so called By-Laws and constitutions say. They call him the head of the church and the clergy in charge and he control every thing and everyone. He alone is allowed the freedom to minister and speak and use any gifts he might think he has.

But all are free to function as God leads at any time and as Christ works in each of them effectually they are able to edify (build up as a house builder) one another. This is how Jesus Christ builds His church. Not the way you and many others try to hinder it.Yes there are many godly people in such places. Thats not the issue. Even more so they should be warned and encouraged to follow after Christ leading and be led by the Spirit.

John warned of men who would act as if all needed them and to hear them rather than listening for God and the anointing.

consider

"6 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."( 1 John 2:26,27 KJV)

 

[truefiction1]

The role the modern pastor, priest, clergy, Bishop etc. takes over all is an exalted role and unbiblical. Just read some of the man made constitutional by-laws and see who the entire ministry is. Its this one man called the "pastor" or "priest". I posted some things about this already.

Plurality of elders in every church is the biblical order and model we see in scripture, never a one man pastor over all in the New Testament. Unless you are saying Jesus is the one man over all. He alone is the head of the church as scripture clearly says.



These are just a small sample of the kind of false authority that can come from such a role over all. The Popes and priest over all can also have such misguided dominion over others.

Plurality of elder in every church is the biblical order and model we see in scripture, never a one man pastor over all in the New testament. Unless you are saying Jesus is the one man over all. He alone is the head of the church as scripture clearly says.



I think most of the so called Priest or pastors tend to be in a role that exalts them. Even if they are humble men this can be tempting. And I believe most of the assemblies look at these men as supreme in authority over them and in dominion over them and in control of them. Some of them call themselves "masters" of divinity. But Jesus said call no man master or father. He said this for a good reason.

Jesus Christ alone is the head of the church, not man. And all believers area royal priesthood, not a special priest over all like OT priesthood.

Here is a sample of an Eastern Orthodox man made By-Law and this is not scriptural , even the idea of making laws for such things is not.

"
ARTICLE III — PARISH

In accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, the Bishop is the Diocesan Authority and the head of this Parish and its Parish Priest and all the Parishes which constitute his diocese. He appoints this Parish's clergy, maintaining with them a relationship that is at once hierarchical and conciliar, marked by obedience and collaboration. He has the obligation and right of visitation to the parish and receives and approves regular reports on parish life. In case of conflict and disorder within the Parish, he takes all necessary measures to resolve them consistent with the Sacred Canons and the Statute.

This Parish, having been established by decision of the Diocesan Bishop, is a local Orthodox Eucharistic community with a vision for proclaiming the Kingdom of God and making its healing presence felt in the world, having as its head a duly appointed Parish Priest and consisting of Orthodox Christians who live in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, comply with the discipline and rules of the Church and regularly support their Parish. Being subordinate to the Diocesan Authority, it is a component part of the Diocese (Article VII, the Statute) and a component part of the Deanery and subordinate to the District Dean (Article XI, the Statute).

"
ARTICLE IV — PARISH PRIEST

The Parish Priest, also referred to as rector or priest-in-charge, by virtue of his ordination and canonical appointment, serves as the spiritual father and teacher of that portion of the flock of Christ entrusted to him, the first among the Parish clergy, and presides over liturgical worship in accordance with the tradition and the norms of the Church.

By virtue of the authority delegated to him at his appointment by the Diocesan Bishop, the Parish Priest, as head of the parish, shall:

i Teach, exhort, and edify the faithful entrusted to his spiritual care with compassion to enable them to grow in sanctification and maturity in the faith;

ii Provide for the administration of the sacraments and the celebration of all liturgical services;

iii Ensure that all activities including educational, evangelistic, philanthropic, social, and cultural activities within the Parish or of the Parish are consistent with the compassionate and ‘myrrh-bearing’ mission of the Church;

iv Head and administer the Parish consistent with the provisions of the Statute, the governing documents of the Diocese and Parish, and the directives of the Diocesan Authority in cooperation with the Parish Council. No activities in the Parish can be initiated without his knowledge, approval, and blessing; neither should he do anything pertaining to the Parish without the knowledge of the appropriate Parish bodies, so that always and everywhere there may be mutual trust, cooperation, unity, and love, thus endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Ephesians 4.3);

v Normally preside over the Parish Assembly and Parish Council, except in cases when the Bishop is present or when the Bishop’s delegate is present for this purpose;

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vi Head the Parish office and be entrusted with the care, custody, and maintenance of sacramental and administrative records, inventories, and the official Parish seal; and

vii Represent the Parish before local civil and judicial authorities and other third parties, either personally or through his delegate.

The Parish Priest shall be at liberty to be present at all Parish meetings, councils, groups, and gatherings. He is a Voting Member in good standing, a member of Parish Council and all other councils, groups and gatherings ex officio ecclesiae.

The Parish shall compensate the Parish Priest. His compensation shall be determined according to established diocesan procedures and norms. His compensation is to be clearly agreed upon prior to his appointment.

The Parish Priest possesses the rights and exercises the responsibilities stipulated by the Sacred Canons, the Statute, and the directives of the Holy Synod and the Diocesan Authority.

The Parish Priest cannot vacate his Parish, change his status, or seek to transfer to another parish or Diocese without the permission of the Bishop. "

ARTICLE VIII — PARISH ASSEMBLY

..."Since it is the sacred duty of the Parish Priest to guide the whole life and all activities of the Parish for which he is responsible before God:"

(https://www.myrrhbearers.ca/sites/default/files/Parish Bylaws.pdf)

Im not sure if this is similar to your assembly laws. If not show me where I can see the so called "By-Laws" of your assembly of the "Eastern orthodox church"

Such "By-Laws" I believe are unbiblical in many parts. I could spend hours exposing so much of this as against the order and functioning of the church and the commands of Jesus. Maybe I will do this soon,Lord willing.


I am sure that if I were to watch your order and listen and see how you gather and function. You would be similar to many and if not worse than some in your order. The body ministry would be almost nil and non functioning on a Sunday gathering. According to scripture every part of the body can minister and be led by God in any gift he has given in the function he has given them when they come together. I could quote many of the commands of God for this order. It is the opposite of mans order that quenches the spirit and sets up exalted men in control and dominion over others with a false authority.

I could ask you, when you come together can anyone at any time have something from God and be encouraged by scripture and the Spirit of God to share it? Or does your assembly order go something like this,

The people walk into a large man made building decorated with a steeple or two unbiblicaly called "the church". There is a sign on the lawn with a name on it. They come in and sit or stand and there. Someone might give you a program and the entire order is preplanned sometimes to the minute leaving no room at all for body ministry in the spirit. There may be two or three or more songs on the program then may be an announcement and scripture reading by the clergy and a liturgy and sermon from the text. There e will be sacramental things done with the Eucharist and communion, perhaps, then maybe an announcement and they all leave and shake the hand of the Priest who was in total control of the entire gathering. And all the time there are icon pictures surrounding the people that they can look at at any time during the man made forms and rituals.

I ask, where is Jesus in such an order? Is Jesus and the leading of the Spirit on the program?. Is he outside knocking wanting to come in and sup with all and to participate with all? Where is every one who gathers on the program? Are they able to have a slam a doctrine a revelation, a tongue a prophecy a word of wisdom or knowledge? Are the apostles prophets evangelist, pastors and teachers able to freely use their gifts at any time as they are led by God and commanded to be free to do when gathered? or would they be carried out by someone called an "usher"?

Scripture rebukes and warns against such a man made gathering and shows the true order in the spirit and as led By God (1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:101,11, Colossians 2:8,9, Colossians 3:15,16, Ephesians 4;11-16, 1 Thess 5:11, 1 Cor 12:7 and on, Romans 12;1-8 etc etc)


This is the big issue.

The man-made order which puts men in control others and you are saying they need man and this order to function. But Paul spoke of the order of God and it is a spiritual order as led by God in every believer. Only God can give men gifts and only God works in every believer to make them perfect unto every good work (Hebrews 13:2-0,21) . Paul says that all things should be done decently and in order. But this order was not mans order. One time Paul said he beheld another church order in the spirit even though he wasn't there physically.

What you and many say to try and keep this order of man is that you need a man to CONTROL all things in the assembly. This is exactly what the so called By-Laws and constitutions say. They call him the head of the church and the clergy in charge and he control every thing and everyone. He alone is allowed the freedom to minister and speak and use any gifts he might think he has.

But all are free to function as God leads at any time and as Christ works in each of them effectually they are able to edify (build up as a house builder) one another. This is how Jesus Christ builds His church. Not the way you and many others try to hinder it.Yes there are many godly people in such places. Thats not the issue. Even more so they should be warned and encouraged to follow after Christ leading and be led by the Spirit.

John warned of men who would act as if all needed them and to hear them rather than listening for God and the anointing.

consider

"6 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."( 1 John 2:26,27 KJV)

Pastors in the Orthodox Church are the same as presbyters/elders indicated in Scripture. What part of Biblical elders and Orthodox Christian pastors are one and the same thing don't you understand?

It's just obvious that you have a problem with the way that the Lord built His Church, and want to set it up your own way.

 

[truefiction1]

Furthermore, the Church is "at once hierarchical and conciliar, marked by obedience and collaboration". This makes it just like the Church depicted in the Book of Acts, where we say "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us". So all members of the Church are represented. So it is Biblical. Again, you are so determined to build the Church after your own desire rather than just worship God in the Church that Jesus Christ built Himself -- over 2000 years ago -- that you won't acknowledge the hierarchy that clearly existed in the New Testament Church and refuse to admit that the Orthodox Church uses the same New Testament ecclesiology.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Pastors in the Orthodox Church are the same as presbyters/elders indicated in Scripture. What part of Biblical elders and Orthodox Christian pastors are one and the same thing don't you understand?

It's just obvious that you have a problem with the way that the Lord built His Church, and want to set it up your own way.

I wonder if you actually read my last long post and examined carefully what i wrote. I said a lot of things that expose your order.

while elders are also called to be overseas by the Holy Ghost ( Acts 20). An elder is not just a pastor gift.

Peter , who was an apostle gift ""Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter..."(Matthew 10:2 KJV). Was also an "elder" as we read

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."( 1 Peter 5:1 KJV)

So, clearly we see here that elders, can be more than just "pastor" gifts. They can also be "apostle gifts", and by implication they can have any of the five gifts in Eph 4:11. They can be a "teacher
gift" as we see from this verse,

1 Timothy 5:17
"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

they can also be a prophet gift

Acts 15:32
"And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them."

1 Corinthians 14:37
"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord"


They can also by implication be evangelist,

2 Timothy 4:5
"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."

8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. 10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus."(Acts 8"8-10 KJV)

So an

elder- is who they are, an older man, or older in the faith, more mature in the faith. The exact age of the person does not mean they are necessarily an elder. A believer who has been 10 years in the faith and is only 30 may be more an elder than a 60 year old man who just got saved.

Overseer- is what they do, they watch over superintend, feed the flock.

apostle, prophet evangelist, pastor, teacher - is one of the gifts they might have in the body. Or they might have two or more gifts ( Acts 13 and 14 about barnabas, and Timothy was an apostle and did the work also of an evangelist etc. Paul was an apostle but seemed to touch all these gifts in some measure.

Nowhere does it say one gift called pastor is over the entire flock as some kind of "clergy" as it is called and the other parts of the body are called the "laity". And nowhere does it say that an elder who is an overseer as well is only a pastor gift.

this is all your made up stuff and many man made assembly made up stuff as well. we are warned against the traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect and we also read Colossians 2:8,9 and,

"4 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."(Titus 1:4 KJV)

and how do you answer this verse?

"6 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."( 1 John 2:26,27 KJV)

and these verses

"9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good."(3rd John 9-11)

and how do you understand this section,

"12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ...
18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face."9 2 Cor 11:12,13,19,20 KJV)

and this section,

"3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:"(Romans 12:3-7 KJV)


So all have some "office" or function in the body and no man should think of himself too highly as many do today. One last section, how do you see this clear warning against much of the Lording and dominion over others in the false authority we see today?

 

[truefiction1]

I wonder if you actually read my last long post and examined carefully what i wrote. I said a lot of things that expose your order.

while elders are also called to be overseas by the Holy Ghost ( Acts 20). An elder is not just a pastor gift.

Peter , who was an apostle gift ""Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter..."(Matthew 10:2 KJV). Was also an "elder" as we read

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."( 1 Peter 5:1 KJV)

So, clearly we see here that elders, can be more than just "pastor" gifts. They can also be "apostle gifts", and by implication they can have any of the five gifts in Eph 4:11. They can be a "teacher
gift" as we see from this verse,

1 Timothy 5:17
"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

they can also be a prophet gift

Acts 15:32
"And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them."

1 Corinthians 14:37
"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord"


They can also by implication be evangelist,

2 Timothy 4:5
"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."

8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. 10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus."(Acts 8"8-10 KJV)

So an

elder- is who they are, an older man, or older in the faith, more mature in the faith. The exact age of the person does not mean they are necessarily an elder. A believer who has been 10 years in the faith and is only 30 may be more an elder than a 60 year old man who just got saved.

Overseer- is what they do, they watch over superintend, feed the flock.

apostle, prophet evangelist, pastor, teacher - is one of the gifts they might have in the body. Or they might have two or more gifts ( Acts 13 and 14 about barnabas, and Timothy was an apostle and did the work also of an evangelist etc. Paul was an apostle but seemed to touch all these gifts in some measure.

Nowhere does it say one gift called pastor is over the entire flock as some kind of "clergy" as it is called and the other parts of the body are called the "laity". And nowhere does it say that an elder who is an overseer as well is only a pastor gift.

this is all your made up stuff and many man made assembly made up stuff as well. we are warned against the traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect and we also read Colossians 2:8,9 and,

"4 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."(Titus 1:4 KJV)

and how do you answer this verse?

"6 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."( 1 John 2:26,27 KJV)

and these verses

"9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good."(3rd John 9-11)

and how do you understand this section,

"12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ...
18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face."9 2 Cor 11:12,13,19,20 KJV)

and this section,

"3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:"(Romans 12:3-7 KJV)


So all have some "office" or function in the body and no man should think of himself too highly as many do today. One last section, how do you see this clear warning against much of the Lording and dominion over others in the false authority we see today?

I read everything. It just doesn't matter because you're seeing things in Scripture that just aren't there. There's nothing anyone can do about that. You don't understand how a leader in the Church has to have authority in order to serve in the role of shepherd (pastor). They have to strike the wolves when they come after the sheep, and the sheep need to be fed the from the True Gospel, rather than someone's false gospel. There needs to be order so their needs to be a hierarchy. Hierarchy is taught in Scripture, period. The Sacrament of Holy Orders is taught in Scripture, period.

 

[LoveofTruth]

the sheep need to be fed the from the True Gospel, rather than someone's false gospel.

what is the true gospel?

can you say what that is?

what does a person have to do to be saved in your understanding?

There needs to be order so their needs to be a hierarchy. Hierarchy is taught in Scripture, period. The Sacrament of Holy Orders is taught in Scripture, period.

read what God's order really is and don't just follow man made order and traditions and create a Hierarchy in the church.

and no the word sacrament is not scriptural.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I read everything. It just doesn't matter because you're seeing things in Scripture that just aren't there. There's nothing anyone can do about that. You don't understand how a leader in the Church has to have authority in order to serve in the role of shepherd (pastor). They have to strike the wolves when they come after the sheep, and the sheep need to be fed the from the True Gospel, rather than someone's false gospel. There needs to be order so their needs to be a hierarchy. Hierarchy is taught in Scripture, period. The Sacrament of Holy Orders is taught in Scripture, period.

,

 

[truefiction1]

read what God's order really is and don't just follow man made order and traditions and create a Hierarchy in the church.

Since the New Testament Scripture reveals that the Church that Christ founded was both hierarchical and conciliar at the same time, this is not a man made order and tradition if it is revealed in the Gospels.

 

[truefiction1]

and no the word sacrament is not scriptural.

Neither does the word "Trinity" show up anywhere in Scripture. So is it your belief that since "Trinity" is not Scriptural that the Church doctrine of the "Trinity" is invalid?