Why Baptism is Essential to Salvation

[manoffiji]

I found "it" is two translations. It (water baptism) is symbolic to represent the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. We are baptized into His death and resurrection. The act of our obedience to get water baptized is a response, a pledge of a clear conscience towards God amongst others. Remember Jesus told the blind guy to dip himself in the pool seven times after he put dirt on his eyes. Jesus didn't need dirt or water to do the miracle, He wanted the man to demonstrate his faith and obedience.

Our believing in Jesus, that He died and rose on the third day, and asking God for forgiveness saves us.

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

International Standard Version
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

King James 2000 Bible
The like figure unto which even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

American Standard Version
which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Sir, every single one of the versions you quoted say baptism saves you, which you failed to place in bold as well. It's right there! But instead you chose to say "It (water baptism) is symbolic to represent the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit." This is not in the verse at all. You chose to add your own paraphrase to change the meaning to your own preconceived bias. Rule #2 in my article. Please only follow the Bible and exactly what it says. Baptism saves you. Twice in one verse. Thanks!

 

[bling]

Sir, every single one of the versions you quoted say baptism saves you, which you failed to place in bold as well. It's right there! But instead you chose to say "It (water baptism) is symbolic to represent the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit." This is not in the verse at all. You chose to add your own paraphrase to change the meaning to your own preconceived bias. Rule #2 in my article. Please only follow the Bible and exactly what it says. Baptism saves you. Twice in one verse. Thanks!

Do you believe the water has some magical power that actually saves you or does God save you?

 

[Ronald]

Sir, every single one of the versions you quoted say baptism saves you, which you failed to place in bold as well. It's right there! But instead you chose to say "It (water baptism) is symbolic to represent the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit." This is not in the verse at all. You chose to add your own paraphrase to change the meaning to your own preconceived bias. Rule #2 in my article. Please only follow the Bible and exactly what it says. Baptism saves you. Twice in one verse. Thanks!

Water symbolizes the cleansing of sin, it doesn't cleanse sin.
It symbolizes a spiritual transformation, being born again from above.
Getting water baptized is an act of obedience, a response and pledge to God for a clear conscience
Scripture states that it is symbolic to represent Jesus' death and resurrection.
The belief in Jesus death and resurrection is what saves you. We are justified by faith through grace and this is not of ourselves.

What of the many people on their death bed who reach out for Christ for forgiveness as the man did next to Christ? They are water baptized.
What you are saying is that all those people never got saved because -- oops there was no water around at the time.

It's apparent that you will stick to your belief no matter how many of us try to convince you otherwise.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What do you call it when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believers at the new birth?

It's called the new birth, or regeneration.

In 1 Cor 12:13 when one is baptized into the body of Christ, who does the verse say baptize the believers into the body of Christ?

It doesn't mention "who" baptizes, it says by one Spirit we are baptized. That's Baptism.

Jesus said He would send another Comforter to those saved, so how would that match what John the Baptist said, One coming after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and filled the believers. This fulfilled what Jesus said, He would send the Comforter and the Comforter fills each believers with Himself and thus this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Bingo, that's exactly what I said. The fulfillment of John's words that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit came to pass on Pentecost, this is when Jesus' words that He would send another Comforter. The Holy Spirit came, as promised, on Pentecost.

We are only filled when we are completely under His power and obeying, only something fully filled, is filled, the cup runs over when full and overflowing would you agree.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is frequently described as an ongoing imperative, for example St. Paul says, "Do not be drunk on wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit". This being filled with the Spirit is not Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and Scripture never identifies it as such.

So example when scripture says that someone was filled with the Holy Spirit, He is in control and that is what happened when the writer penned the word of God, He had them write exactly what He wanted to say in the letters and gospels. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. And only saved people are filled with the Holy Spirit.

That's not what being filled with the Spirit means either. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not being possessed by the Holy Spirit, as though we lose control of ourselves and our mental faculties. And those who wrote Scripture were not possessed by the Spirit; but their writings are inspired by the Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

the Holy Ghost baptism can come without laying on of hands and with laying on of hands.

Since Scripture only mentions two incidences that are identified in Scripture as the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, where do you see the laying on of hands as conferring Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

because the text says they received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

But where does it say that is Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe they are the similar in the Holy Ghost ministry to believers.

we read

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Speaking in tongues and prophecy and all the gifts in 1 Cor 12 are when a believer is filled with the Holy Ghost. Paul says they should desire such spiritual gifts. These gifts can only be given when a person is filled with the Holy Ghost.

"17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 9:17 KJV)

and

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)

In John 20 Jesus breathes on His disciples and says "receive the Holy Spirit", but this wasn't a Baptism with the Holy Spirit, the disciples did not receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Baptism with the Spirit is used in Scripture only in reference to two major events in the early history of the Church, at Pentecost and at Cornelius' house. There are many examples of people receiving the Spirit in many other ways, and being filled with the Spirit, but only two unique cases are pointed to as the baptism with the Holy Spirit which St. John the Baptist spoke of.

Holy Baptism and laying on of hands are both connected with the giving of the Spirit, e.g. Acts 2:38, Acts 8:14-17, and Acts 19:1-6; which is precisely how the Church has always understood it, which is why the Church historically has Baptism and Chrismation. That is the historic understanding of the Christian Church and is based precisely on apostolic practice and the testimony of Holy Scripture.

The idea that "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" refers to any kind of personal experience, whether a conversion experience or some kind of special experience of the Spirit (whether legitimate or not) is not a biblical teaching, and it is not the historic teaching of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveofTruth]

I had to write one more response to your post. You very dangerously said I was preaching a different gospel than you were and referenced 1 Cor 15:1-4. Please tell me is Acts 2:37-41, Romans 6:3-6, Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21-22, Galatians 3:26-27, Colossians 2:11-12, Titus 3:5, John 3:5, Matthew 3:13-17 and Hebrews not part of the same gospel you're reading? If not, please point out why these verses should not pertain to my eternal salvation. I certainly hope we're reading the same Bible and thus the same gospel. Maybe my NIV is leading me the wrong way Thanks again!

Hello, and I am glad you are open to consider what is said. I may have to deal with one or two verses at a time. There is lots to say.

in 1 Cor 15;1-4 Paul defines the saving gospel. if you notice clearly there is no water baptism, or circumcision, or sabbaths or the Lord's supper added to the gospel for salvation.

This is the what Paul preached and they believed but some heard the gospel by faith believed and received the spirit, then they tried to add to the word heard by faith works of the law and to be made perfect by the flesh. This was an error. Paul said

and he said in Galatians 3

"2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"(Galatians 3:2-5 KJV)

So they "heard" and believed and rec lived the spirit. It was not any works they could do, or any ordinances or diverse washings or carnal ordinances. But they heard believed and were saved. paul says this much in 1 Cor 15:1,2 KJV)

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." Then Paul goes on to explain what he preached the very gospel.

as far as your other verses lets look at them and the context of when they were said and in what understanding.This is the main focus

" 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost...."(Acts 2:37,38 KJV)

The first thing to be aware of is that Peter was still going to the temple and was still somewhat under the law and the Old Covenant was slowly fading away. It had not come to their understanding yet some of the freedoms that were part of the new covenant.

Also we read that peter was speaking specifically to the Jewish nation. Not the gentiles yet. He said

"Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you,...Ye men of Israel,...Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."(Acts 2:14, 22, 36 KJV)

Peter had the "gospel of the circumcision" or primarily to the Jews who were coming out of the old into the new covenant and from under the law and diverse washings etc. and Paul had the "gospel of the uncircumcision" or primarily to the Gentiles who were not coming out of the law and old covenant and so did not have the same issues.

Then Peter said for them to "repent
"and be baptized" every one of them "in the name of Jesus Christ" for the remission of sins.

The expression "for" the remission of sins. The word "for" in Greek can mean, "to or into", so to or into the remission of sins can be the understanding so it could read that when they have faith and are immersed into Jesus Christ because of this or into this they have remission of sins.

But to me there is a more important word. Peter said "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ". The expression "In the name of or into the name of Jesus Christ" is to be immersed into his character and life and authority in our lives. The word "name" here means character or authority).

Paul said another place

" Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"(Romans 6:3 KJV)

This being immersed "into Jesus Christ" is far more than a outward washing with water. This expression "in the name of Jesus Christ is also not a mere formula. Paul said

"17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."(Colossians 3:17 KJV)

This expression "In the name of Jesus Christ" does not mean that every time you say a word or do an action you have to say the phrase "in the name of Jesus Christ".No that would be absurd. Imagine every time we speak we say. "Hello" in the name of Jesus Christ", my "in the name of Jesus Christ", name "In the name of Jesus Christ" is "in the name of Jesus Christ"...obviously that is not the meaning. It is not a formal but a reality in the character life power and authority of Jesus Christ in us. To be immersed (baptized) into the name is to be in the character of Jesus Christ and to be in him and he in you.

Jesus said that when he was in the world he "manifested" the Fathers "name" (John 17:6 KJV) and he "kept them" in His "name" (John 17:12 KJV). This means he kept them in the character life and power of the Father and His word.

"10 The name of the Lord is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe."( Proverbs 18:10 KJV)

How do the righteous run into a name? So when Peter said to be baptized ( immersed into) the name of Jesus Christ.He had the right words by the Spirit, even if he was still following Johns water baptism. God allowed the diverse washings and carnal ordinances for a time of reformation to the Jews. But Jesus told them right in Acts 1 that John baptized with water, but thy would be baptized with the Holy Ghost. When Peter was told to go to the Gentiles (Cornelius) he at first was reluctant, and was still under the law and dietary laws and Halakah law. He saw that the Gentiles can come in and be saved and have the Holy Ghost given, without any water baptism. Yet he still water baptized them. Why did he do this. It would seen he did it for two possible reasons.

1, He was following Johns water baptism which was very close to them at that time and even though Johns water baptism was for Israels program, they still followed that and many other aspects of the law for a time.

2 He was following the Halakah law for the Gentile converts which h required under their customs that the Gentile convert be fully submerged in water and circumcised. We see the Jewish believers wanting this second aspect for gentiles in Acts 15:1 etc.

But it seems that Peter was following Johns water baptism still because as jesus told them in Acts 1 that Johns water baptism was past and to be replace ed by the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Jesus reminded Peter here again, many years after the first time he said it of the same words. I can imagine peter is questioning and saying "who can forbid water?" and as they water baptized the Gentiles who were already saved and had the Spirit Peter heard these words,

"15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"( Acts 11:15-17 KJV)

It seems as if Peter was trying to make the gentiles follow the Jewish program but God was showing him otherwise. We see this when Paul accused Peter of such in Galatians and said,

"14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,"(Galatians 2:14,15 KJV)

So when Peter says to "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ" he is speaking of a deep reality of being immersed into him and He in them. "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor 12;13 KJV). That body is the body of Christ. This one baptism that ALL must have, is by the Spirit. It is not a water baptism. But they did practice many ordinances of the law for a time. However it would not make sense to bring the Gentiles under the law and the Old Covenant that was fading away and ready to vanish, then to bring them out of it.

I believe God was showing Peter that the Gentiles do not need to come under the law as they still were. Paul even said he was the apostle to the gentiles and he said that Christ sent him not to baptism , but to preach the gospel". This may have been because he was going to Gentiles and it did not make sense to bring them under Israels program of the Old Testament. Jesus aid he had many tins to say and to judge of them, but at that time they were not able to bear it. He said the Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth. This took time. They were nursed up in the law and customs for so long, that the time of reformation was slow going.

Also we read the expression "for the remission of sins". The remiss of sins is truly when believers are in Christ and through faith believe the gospel. And we read

Revelation 1:5
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

we also read

Hebrews 9:22
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

So to say that "remission of sins" does not come through water baptism. Peters words cannot mean that. If a person truly repents and believes in Jesus Christ who died for their sins and was buried and rose again, they will be immersed into Jesus Christ and have remission of sins through faith in His blood. As we read.

Romans 3:25
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Matthew 26:28
"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Peter may have had Johns water baptism in mind when he said his words in Acts 2, for we read of Johns water baptism;

Mark 1:4
"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

Now we know that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.So when John was preaching repentance, he was preparing men to have a right heart to trust in God's righteousness and the shed blood for their sins. John also said of Jesus.

John 1:29
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world"

This would be accomplished at his death on the cross and shed blood as we saw already Jesus said ""For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.".

Only when Jesus shed his blood on the cross could remission of sins truly be known. Peter came to know this later in 1 Peter 3:21 when he said the saving baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (or as if to say it is not an outward washing with water). But the saving baptism is the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This expression "the answer of a good conscience", is telling. The word conscience seems to imply with knowledge and they did not have such knowledge. It means "co-perception". The knowledge of how they can be clean was not given yet., They had to have a reminder of their sins (Hebrews 10:3 KJV) until it was finished. The conscience cannot be clean by outward ordinances and diverse washings as we read

"9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."(Hebrews 9:9,10 KJV)

So no outward washing or ordinance can make the conscience perfect. It is only by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ death for sin and his resurrection as we read

"14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"Hebrews 9:14 KJV)

So when Peter says

"21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer [inquiry] of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

He is saying that in the Ot the conscience would inquire how to be perfect and clean and purged, but no understanding was fully given, for Christ had not come yet and the way into the holiest was not known yet.But when Christ came and shed his blood we now have our conscience clean and purged from dead works. This is because we have a full assurance of hope believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ and we are also risen with him . By His resurrection God confirmed him as scripture says.

Acts 17:31
"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, inthat he hath raised him from the dead."

So to sum it up. Peter had the right words but was still speaking only to Israel and he was under the law. He added Johns water baptism to his message all of which they may have done before Jesus died and rose again when they baptized other Jews as John did. But Jesus told them Johns water baptism program was ended but they did not understand for a while. Peter eventually came to understand the saving baptism into Christ however and wrote it in 1 Peter 3:21.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Baptism with the Spirit is used in Scripture only in reference to two major events in the early history of the Church, at Pentecost and at Cornelius' house.

in Acts 10 we read

" While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

we does is say the word "baptized with the Holy Ghost"

I believe when we read of men receiving the Holy Ghost this is the baptism with the Holy Ghost. There are spiritual gifts also given with the event.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

It's called the new birth, or regeneration.



It doesn't mention "who" baptizes, it says by one Spirit we are baptized. That's Baptism.



Bingo, that's exactly what I said. The fulfillment of John's words that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit came to pass on Pentecost, this is when Jesus' words that He would send another Comforter. The Holy Spirit came, as promised, on Pentecost.



Being filled with the Holy Spirit is frequently described as an ongoing imperative, for example St. Paul says, "Do not be drunk on wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit". This being filled with the Spirit is not Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and Scripture never identifies it as such.



That's not what being filled with the Spirit means either. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not being possessed by the Holy Spirit, as though we lose control of ourselves and our mental faculties. And those who wrote Scripture were not possessed by the Spirit; but their writings are inspired by the Spirit.

-CryptoLutheran

If you are baptized by the the Holy Spirit is that not the same as the baptism of the Holy Spirit bacause He is always in you after that till death. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am not a KJV only person. Didn't this thread start with a "no denomination's sunglasses" declaration? Now you're expecting to have KJV only and bible only fire-side discussions of collected verses that allegedly prove something if you line them up just right in the right light and with KJV only words?? Not something I am going to play along with - not a tune for me to dance to

I simply believe the bible and that bible for English people is the KJV. Thats my conviction after almost 30 years of study and like I said its a 45 hour talk. I am not getting into that here.

I mention it because when I have a clear text that stands and shows what I see in scripture another version may change it to mean the opposite or create some doubt and confusion.

For example 1 Timothy 3:16 "God was manifest in the flesh..."

or "He appeared in the flesh" etc

If I am showing the deity of Christ and that it was God who was manifest in the flesh, the new versions do not say as much and the main verse I use is doubted.

I can almost hear the words "Yeah hath God said"

 

[Ancient of Days]

What about the guy who was crucified next to Christ? He believed when he was hanging on a cross. Don't remember him coming down to get baptized before Jesus said "Today you will be with me in paradise"

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[ViaCrucis]

in Acts 10 we read

" While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

we does is say the word "baptized with the Holy Ghost"

I believe when we read of men receiving the Holy Ghost this is the baptism with the Holy Ghost. There are spiritual gifts also given with the event.

Keep reading.

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as it had upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He had said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'" - Acts 11:15-16

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you are baptized by the the Holy Spirit is that not the same as the baptism of the Holy Spirit bacause He is always in you after that till death. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

"For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:13

St. Peter says "Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

We have indeed received the Spirit at our Baptism, the new birth of water and Spirit as Christ Himself said (John 3:5).

This is Baptism, not Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the ancient and holy prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit; that has nothing to do with Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and does not mean the prophets were possessed by the Holy Spirit and lost all control of themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

What about the guy who was crucified next to Christ? He believed when he was hanging on a cross. Don't remember him coming down to get baptized before Jesus said "Today you will be with me in paradise"

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1) Christ did not institute the Sacrament of Baptism until after His resurrection.

2) The word of God is powerful and saving, creating faith (Romans 10:17) and thus Christ's word here, "You will be with Me" is sufficient.

3) See Baptism of Desire.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

"For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:13

St. Peter says "Repent and be baptized all of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

We have indeed received the Spirit at our Baptism, the new birth of water and Spirit as Christ Himself said (John 3:5).

This is Baptism, not Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the ancient and holy prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit; that has nothing to do with Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and does not mean the prophets were possessed by the Holy Spirit and lost all control of themselves.

-CryptoLutheran

that is yourunderstanding as you read it and the way I stated it is the way I understand it. We each give an account of our own actions, others listen and they examine the scriptures and make up their minds who to believe.

 

[Ron Gurley]

There is no clear scripture that says or implies that ritual water baptism is a condition of salvation.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Distinguish spiritual baptism from ritual water baptism

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Jesus told the disciples in John 15:3 Now you are already clean through the words that I have spoken to you. What is this telling us? How did Abraham get clean inside? We know because we are told in Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. The scripture tells us that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and faith is produced by the illumination of the word of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and when we believe it and confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior we are told by Paul that we are saved in Rom 10:8-10 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Whoever believes this in their heart and confesses Him as Lord is saved, v13 whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, v17 faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. So we see like Abraham and whoever believes what the word of God has told us about our sinful stated and that Jesus is the only way to heaven they are saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Paul doesn't even mention water baptism. Though he himself was baptized after the road to Damascus experience. This shows us from these quoted text that those lost are saved by faith which the Holy Spirit reveals in our hearts and we are cleansed from our sins. John 1:12 but to as many as receive Him to them gave He the power to become the children of God. Notice that we are cleansed by believing the word of God by faith. Now we will notice Jesus say this John 6:61-63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. And this is the same type example that Paul gives us in Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. This demonstrates like Eph 1:13-14 said hearing the word, you believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Its the word of God that cleanses away sin and places one into the body of Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit and He comes to live in us and transforms us little by little into the image of Jesus Christ like it says in Romans 8:28-30. What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus. By the washing of water by the word of God, the flesh profits nothing, its all done for us by the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Victor E.]

Why Baptism is Essential to Salvation: It's Time to Take Off the Denominational Sunglasses


I want to preface this by making sure the reader understands two things:


1. I was raised in the church of Christ and realize that there is a history of bad blood between members of the church and, say, Baptists or Presbyterians who do not believe in the essential nature of baptism. Rightfully so, these denominations have felt they are condemned by their "faith only" salvation mindset by members of the church of Christ. I personally have chosen to believe that if you say you are a Christian, and are living that out in your life, that I just choose to believe that you are a Christian. However, I firmly believe that your faith is blinded by denominational terminology and tradition and that if you are truly seeking the Kingdom, that you will listen to what I have to say. As the title suggests, it's time to take off the 'denominational sunglasses' and try and look at the scripture for what IT says, not what MAN says about scripture. I believe that the churches of Christ have some glaring faults that have been and are being addressed, but none of them are salvation important faults. I do believe that in the area of baptism, the church of Christ is the only section of Christendom that may have it right. I pray that this is not true though.


2. You may not believe it, but I do NOT look at denominations as the enemy, but as the opportunity. I care SO much that the Christ seeker looks to scripture and not to their man made traditions. In Matthew 6:33, Jesus commands us to seek FIRST his kingdom. I'm seeking this not just for myself, but hopefully for everyone around me. I promise you I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just trying to encourage people to step outside of the only religious boundaries we know, and truly examine the scriptures as our only guide.


We need to go into this with a set of rules to establish our foundation. As long as we can start here, we have a level playing field. If we can't agree on them then you may as well not be reading this in the first place. These rules are:


1. We agree that the Bible and the scripture within are God breathed and inspired.


2. We agree that ALL of what the Bible teaches is accurate, true and essential to our knowledge of Him who created us.


3. (And this is where I feel, unfortunately, I'm going to lose some of you) What the scripture states (or does not state) is vastly more important than man made terminology we have created over time.


#3 is where we need to start. It is vital in your Christian walk to know that if your denomination has a term, or set of words that are not specifically in scripture, that you SERIOUSLY question that ideology. For instance, The Sinner's Prayer is a good example. It simply is not in the Bible. The term "Accept Jesus into your heart" simply is not in the Bible. The statement "Baptism is only a symbol" is, once again, simply not in the Bible. All three of the above statements have come from interpretations of select verses without looking at the whole.


Let's begin with an example of quality versus quantity so that we can illustrate some of the following points. When examining textual variations within some of the thousands of Biblical manuscripts that we have obtained over time, scholars have a set of rules that they apply to what should stay and what should not (read "How We Got The Bible" by Lightfoot for more on this. It is also an excellent book). When there is a variation between manuscripts, scholars choose to look towards the most quality manuscript first, not necessarily the quantity of manuscripts with the variation. When looking at the following, it is important that just because a quantity of scriptures does not mention a particular item, it does not negate the quality scriptures that do.


I began thinking of writing this when I opened my Bible application on my phone and found an article titled, "What is Baptism?". Curiously I opened it and found the following points that they state are "significant". First, they say "Baptism isn't what saves you." They back this statement up with Ephesians 2:8-9, a favorite of the faith-only crowd. Look at rule #3 above. This verse simply does not say "Baptism isn't what saves you". This is the reader adding this to the chosen scripture. You can say baptism isn't what saves you all day long, but if you read Acts 2:37-38, it clearly says that repentance and baptism are essential to the forgiveness of sins (here again we must agree that forgiveness of sins is salvation or we aren't standing on an even ground once more). But we'll come back to this.


The second statement the article made was "Baptism is a symbol." I was discouraged to find that there was no scripture to even back this statement up. A Bible App, making Bible statements with no scriptural backing? Alarms should go off for anyone in this case. I can only assume that they would refer to 1 Peter 3:21 which is constantly misread and taken out of context to try and support the "baptism is a symbol" statement. We'll also examine this scripture as well.


I opened up an article on Neverthirsty.org where a reader states that they believe that baptism is required for salvation. The reader chooses Acts 2:36-38, John 3:1-7 and Romans 6:3-4 as sources for this belief. The unnamed author then chooses to make four points that state why baptism is not essential to salvation. In his very first paragraph he completely negates the rest of his argument. He says, "We need to honestly ask ourselves the following question. Why, if baptism is the key difference between eternal life with God or eternal life in hell why does it ONLY show up in four places in the New Testament "as a condition of salvation" " (not edited for grammatical errors). I had to stop and re-read it. Did he just admit that scripture has baptism as a condition of salvation, and yet, because it is only in there four times, that it's not applicable? He goes on to state that at least "25 other times baptism is never mentioned as a condition of salvation". My first question to the author is, how many times does the Bible need to state ANYTHING is a condition of salvation before you agree that it is, in fact, a condition of salvation??? Let's also go back to our quality versus quantity statement. First of all, I disagree that there are ONLY four, but even if there were, would a verse that only mentions faith completely negate a verse that mentions repentance and baptism? Refer to rule #2 above.


Here's a silly yet applicable illustration. If Acts 2:37-38 mentioned that forgiveness of sins required repentance and dipping your head in goat urine, yet it was mentioned nowhere else in the Bible and only faith was mentioned, would that negate the goat urine act? I very much hope that you, along with me would gladly dip your head in the urine for your salvation! However the goat urine is baptism and baptism is mentioned far more than once in reference to the forgiveness of our sins, the washing of our sins and our salvation through baptism.


I'd like to address his other points as well. Two of them are easily addressed. He references Luke 7:50 where Jesus says to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." The other is of the thief on the cross. He states that because Jesus never mentions baptism, that it is proof that it is not a requirement. I must stop here and say this. If that is the truth, why in the world do you waste your time with it at all? The truth that is not addressed is that the New Covenant did not begin until Jesus entered into Heaven. The temple curtain had not even torn in two when Jesus forgave the thief (representing the direct access we now had to our savior) and Jesus himself said that the Holy Spirit could not come until he ascended into Heaven (John 16:7). The truth of the matter is that Jesus specifically addresses the importance of baptism in Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16. If we reference our quality over quantity illustration, I certainly hope that we can agree that what Jesus says is our MOST quality scriptures of all.


The last point that the author of the Neverthirsty article mentions is Acts 10:43. He states that "Cornelius and his family were saved by faith without being baptized. Notice the Holy Spirit comes upon these new believers and Peter is surprised." Let's break that down. Referring to our rule #3, his first sentence simply is not in the scripture. It does not say that they were saved without baptism. The author has chosen to add it to support his preconceived belief that it is not essential. His second sentence is either a falsity told by the author or he is willingly blind. The scripture tells us that the Jewish Christians were surprised, NOT Peter, and they were surprised that the Holy Spirit would come down on Gentiles. Peter was not surprised and goes on to tell them that there is no reason the Gentiles can't be baptized (a condition of salvation as stated by the same author who is trying to prove it is not a condition of salvation). To examine it even further, Peter was an apostle, of which no longer exist today, and the power of the Holy Spirit was shown in this instance for the specific purpose of proving to the Jews that the Gentiles could receive salvation as well. If baptism was not essential, Peter would have said, "Welp, you've received the Holy Spirit so there's no need for baptism." Instead, baptism, as stated time and time again in the New Testament was essential for the washing of their sins; their salvation.


Let's examine Acts 2:37-38. Peter tells the people to repent AND be baptized FOR the forgiveness of their sins. By doing so he says the gift of the Holy Spirit is given. When examining this under the same microscope that the faith-only crowd might do, I could say that since faith and God's grace is not mentioned, that neither are required for salvation. We know that this is not true, but if we are basing our rules by assuming that not seeing faith and grace in this passage somehow negates them from being required for salvation, we are doing the same thing that is being done when saying that baptism is not required because it isn't mentioned in a faith only verse. We know this is silly, but if it applies one way, then it must apply both ways. In the end, the decision must be made to apply the New Covenant as a whole, not in parts and under the lens of denominational importance.


Now let's walk through 1 Peter 3:21. This verse is used to try and convince people that baptism is a symbol. However, it does the complete opposite and shows that it is not only NOT a symbol, but a "condition of salvation". "...and this water (this is the water of Noah's flood) symbolizes baptism (note that the WATER symbolizes baptism, not the other way around) that now saves you also (it is very clearly saying that the baptism now saves you)." We're going to pause here and go back to the first "significant" statement that my Bible app tried to tell me today: "Baptism isn't what saves you". This verse LITERALLY word for word just said that it does save you. Okay, back to 1 Peter 3:21 "...that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It (It being baptism) saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Twice in one single verse we are told that baptism saves us. Faith and grace are nowhere mentioned again as a reference back to my last paragraph. Instead we are told twice that baptism saves us and that it saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Note that the resurrection is mentioned. This should be important in referencing pre-resurrection times when Jesus told people they were saved (Luke 7:50 and the thief on the cross).


The last point I would like to address is the common argument that baptism cannot be necessary because it is a work and that the Bible says we are not saved by works (Eph. 2:8-9). Let's review our rule #3 again. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that baptism is a work. But let's take it even further. Let's say the Bible had a verse that specifically stated, "Baptism is a work" and nothing else changed in the Bible. Would this negate Jesus himself saying that "Whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved"? (Mark 16:16) Of course it wouldn't, but somehow the faith-only crowd would like use Eph 2:8-9 against Jesus himself! Baptism is not a work but rather is an act of faith that is shown over and over again to be an essential part of our salvation.


For example, I took a Christian brother to his cancer treatment today and went "out of my way" to do so. This was a work of faith. It was a work of love (I hope). But do I think this work saves me? Of course not! I did it because Jesus has asked me to look after the needy. I already know that Jesus did all the work for me on the cross. But being baptized is not going "out of my way". It is simply doing what Jesus commands us to do and says saves us.


It's been brought to my attention more than once when getting to this point that people will change the debate to something like, "Well what about the primitive villager in Brazil who has never seen a Bible and could never have been baptized or had a chance to know about Jesus. You're saying they all went to Hell?" It shouldn't have to be said, but I am not the judge of anyone's eternal situation. God is completely in charge there and I believe that God examines each and every person and the situation within which he has placed them.


The focus should not be placed on the primitive who does not have a Bible, but on the Christian who DOES have the Bible. Don't you believe that God would be much less pleased with the person who had the knowledge at their fingertips every day of their life, yet refused to look past what their denomination had taught them? Religion is just a set of rules, but spirituality is the FREEDOM to examine God's perfect holy Word for ourselves. It's time to break away from our denominational sunglasses and find the truth for ourselves.


I want to end with this: I SINCERELY and very badly want to go to Heaven and worship my creator forever. I personally believe that I have found that answer through belief, repentance, faith, grace, mercy...and yes, baptism. If I am wrong, I want someone to tell me why. Apply rules 1-3 above and if you can dispute anything I've said, please let me know. God be the glory always.


References:

1. www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q/qa-archives/question/the-bible-never-says-that-we-have-to-be-baptized-to-be-saved

2. YouVersion Bible Application Plan "What is Baptism?"

Baptism is not salvific, otherwise, someone repenting on their deathbed wouldn't be able to be saved apart from their own works (Ephesians 2:8-9). However everyone filled with the Holy Ghost, will get baptized as soon as possible! It is a very important step of obedience and Baptism in water is not just symbolic (that's a lie, it's a VERY IMPORTANT part of our walk of faith)...I have seen the POWER that can come out of full immersion water baptism. 1 Peter 3:21

Get Baptized!!!