Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[1stcenturylady]

Yeshua did not celebrate Passover that year since He died when the lambs died.

Wrong.

7 Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”

18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”

19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”

22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?”

23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?”

He said to him, “You have said it.”

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

 

[Anguspure]

How old are you? Two?

A two year old doesn't know the difference and doesn't care. The point for a two year old is the relationship; relationship between God and between people.
Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As for water into whatever it does not matter. The guests recognized it was good stuff so a miracle happened.

As for Communion/Passover the key part is "do this in remembrance of me..." If I was in the woods I could eat a leaf and drink water as long as I am remembering Him not out of duty but in His love and grace and His salvation.

That's not what "in remembrance" refers to here.

In the Jewish Haggadah--the proscription of how to do a Passover Seder--certain key statements are made to emphasize the meaning and significance of the Passover. It says, "We were slaves in Egypt", it does not say "our ancestors were slaves in Egypt", because in the Passover meal the Jewish people "remember" the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. The past and the present are connected together here, the Passover draws those eating it into the reality of the deliverance--"We were slaves in Egypt". The Passover draws together history and present life into identity--as the people God delivered.

When Christ says "Do this for the remembrance of Me" He is not saying, "Don't forget Me", He's establishing a new meaning for this meal, even as the Passover connected the people with the deliverance from slavery in Egypt to be the free people of God, so does this Meal being instituted by Jesus for His followers connect them to His life-giving flesh and blood broken and shed for them. It is not mere memorial, but a sacred remembrance, or anamnesis; when we partake of this bread and the cup of this wine we are, as St. Paul himself says, partaking and sharing in the body and blood of Jesus (1 Corinthians 10:16-18), we partake and share in--personally--Christ's own passion, death, and offering of Himself.

If Jesus were only interested in us remembering Him in some vague abstract way, we can do that with anything or without anything. But Jesus' intent is far deeper here, when we receive this bread and wine, we receive Him, we receive His body, we receive His blood, we receive His sacrifice, we share in and of Him and all which He has done, together, as His people. We become participants in the deliverance, once and for all, from sin and death which He accomplished by His dying and rising.

And if these things weren't of such great importance, the Apostle would not warn us that when we mistreat and misapproach the Table of Christ we are not sinning against mere bread and wine, we are sinning against the very body and blood of the Lord,

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves." - 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

Since we are not receiving mere bread and wine, but the body and blood of Jesus Christ Himself, we ought to approach it with the same reverence we would show Him--because it is Him. We receive the very King of Glory when we receive His Supper.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

A two year old doesn't know the difference and doesn't care. The point for a two year old is the relationship; relationship between God and between people.
Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

But there is a difference on being satisfied with milk, and seeking meat.

 

[Anguspure]

But there is a difference on being satisfied with milk, and seeking meat.

What is meaty about worrying about the specific beverage used to represent the blood of the Lord at our Love feast? Surely something meaty would involve the recognition and practice of the deep heart felt relationships between our collective selves and God Almighty that the blood of Christ has bought for all.

 

[1stcenturylady]

What is meaty about worrying about the specific beverage used to represent the blood of the Lord at our Love feast? Surely something meaty would involve the recognition and practice of the deep heart felt relationships between our collective selves and God Almighty that the blood of Christ has bought for all.

It is called the fear of the Lord. Preferring ignorance, not growing up in the Lord, and not discerning the Lord's body can make you sick, or even die.

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

There are many facets to that statement. But you do as YOU like in whatever manner you like, and I'll prefer what God wants. I hear you like Pepsi!

 

[Blade]

Reading some of the posts... Facts are.. they did use REAL wine at weddings and passover.. anyway. What did Jesus tell them about John the Baptist? 'For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet twisdom is justified by all her children." Sorry.. why would they say John has a demon and Jesus is a drunkard? Anyway

Wine.. its not evil.. not a sin what so ever. Its getting drunk. No I dont think lol Jesus ever got drunk when the word says.. drink just dont get drunk. People try to make JESUS appear to be like they always picture Him. Fact.. take that Jesus put Him in a crowd. You would NEVER know it was Him. He was not one would want to look at.

We can twist what Luke wrote yet...it is clear. One was not eating.. drinking.. one was. Sorry its not the JESUS we each had pictured in our minds.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong.

7 Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”

18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”

19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”

22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?”

23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?”

He said to him, “You have said it.”

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

You may enjoy this thread here that I created a while back.

My New Chronology on the Passion Week

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No it wasn't...

I used to believe the same way. However, this article changed my mind.

Passover is a Feast and a Holy Convocation.

Granted, the author is a Messianic Jew and they believe the OT Passover is still binding (of which I disagree with), but they have a really good article on explaining the details of the Passover.

 

[Kylism]

The original posting was about whether Jesus used wine or grape juice. I was focusing on the items are not the main points. It is the meaning behind them as you described.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You may enjoy this thread here that I created a while back.

My New Chronology on the Passion Week

Interestingly, it is the same as mine:

Nissan 13 - Tuesday.
Nissan 13/14 (eve) Tuesday night - Passover Seder meal
Nissan 14 - Wed. Crucifixion/preparation day for High Sabbath feast
Nissan 14/15 (eve) #1 eve
Nissan 15 - Thurs. Feast of Unleavened Bread. #1 day
Nissan 15/16 (eve) #2 eve
Nissan 16 - Fri - #2 day
Nissan 16/17 (eve) start of Sabbath #3 eve
Nissan 17 weekly Sabbath #3 day
Nissan 17/18 1st day of the week begins - Resurrection

 

[1stcenturylady]

The Last Supper was not during the days of unleavened...

Jesus was already buried by the first day of the 15th - Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Jesus died the day before on the 14th, having had the Passover meal the evening before at the beginning of the 14th. The 14th was also the preparation day for the feast of Unleavened Bread.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's not what "in remembrance" refers to here.

In the Jewish Haggadah--the proscription of how to do a Passover Seder--certain key statements are made to emphasize the meaning and significance of the Passover. It says, "We were slaves in Egypt", it does not say "our ancestors were slaves in Egypt", because in the Passover meal the Jewish people "remember" the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. The past and the present are connected together here, the Passover draws those eating it into the reality of the deliverance--"We were slaves in Egypt". The Passover draws together history and present life into identity--as the people God delivered.

When Christ says "Do this for the remembrance of Me" He is not saying, "Don't forget Me", He's establishing a new meaning for this meal, even as the Passover connected the people with the deliverance from slavery in Egypt to be the free people of God, so does this Meal being instituted by Jesus for His followers connect them to His life-giving flesh and blood broken and shed for them. It is not mere memorial, but a sacred remembrance, or anamnesis; when we partake of this bread and the cup of this wine we are, as St. Paul himself says, partaking and sharing in the body and blood of Jesus (1 Corinthians 10:16-18), we partake and share in--personally--Christ's own passion, death, and offering of Himself.

If Jesus were only interested in us remembering Him in some vague abstract way, we can do that with anything or without anything. But Jesus' intent is far deeper here, when we receive this bread and wine, we receive Him, we receive His body, we receive His blood, we receive His sacrifice, we share in and of Him and all which He has done, together, as His people. We become participants in the deliverance, once and for all, from sin and death which He accomplished by His dying and rising.

And if these things weren't of such great importance, the Apostle would not warn us that when we mistreat and misapproach the Table of Christ we are not sinning against mere bread and wine, we are sinning against the very body and blood of the Lord,

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves." - 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

Since we are not receiving mere bread and wine, but the body and blood of Jesus Christ Himself, we ought to approach it with the same reverence we would show Him--because it is Him. We receive the very King of Glory when we receive His Supper.

-CryptoLutheran

Exactly! It must be done with reverence and not joked about and mocked by eating Twinkies and drinking Pepsi. That is not discerning the sinless (unleavened) body of Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

Just a little to note: Most people think grape juice could not stay fresh for very long back then, and it couldn't. They also had no sulfites back then and many wild yeasts would get into the wine, both good and bad and could ruin the wine. The solution was what they called a "must."

Lastest News writes:
Columella gives us an informative description of how they did it: “That must may remain always as sweet as though it were fresh, do as follows. Before the grape-skins are put under the press, take from the vat some of the freshest possible must and put it in a new wine-jar; then daub it over and cover it carefully with pitch, that thus no water may be able to get in. Then sink the whole flagon in a pool of cold, fresh water so that no part of it is above the surface. Then after forty days take it out of the water. The must will then keep sweet for as much as a year.” [Columella, On Agriculture 12, 37, 1]… This method of preserving grape juice must have been in use long before the time of Pliny and Columella, because Cato (234-149 B.C.) mentions it two centuries before them: “If you wish to keep grape juice through the whole year, put the grape juice in an amphora, seal the stopper with pitch, and sink in the pond. Take it out after thirty days; it will remain sweet the whole year.” [Marcus Cato, On Agriculture 120, 1.]

[3] Wine naturally ferments to no more than 16% alcohol (typically 12-14%) before the alcohol kills the yeast off.
Many Jewish ceremonies called for several glasses of wine, some as many as six. Full strength wine back then was pretty strong---, Each cup has to contain at least a ¼ log (0.137 liter; Sh. Ar, OḤ 472:9) witch equals , minimum of 4.6 oz . Most cups found from ancient times hold more than 6 oz, a few were smaller. Passover calls for 4, with a running argument for a 5th glass. One would be enough to get you tipsy---after six, they would be stepping over you prone body.
In my long ago wild youth 1 glass of wine was sufficient to get me giddy---4 was a whole bottle and I would end up spending most of my night draped over the toilet bowl. And that with todays average of 11% alcohol. Higher percentages are available today for the more expensive wines which were not available then.
If Jesus had 4 glasses of full strength 14% wine---I doubt He'd have been able to walk to the Garden much less prayed as He did.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Wrong.

7 Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”

18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”

19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.”

22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?”

23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?”

He said to him, “You have said it.”

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

So in your scenario he died a day AFTER the lambs were killed?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Interestingly, it is the same as mine:

Nissan 13 - Tuesday.
Nissan 13/14 (eve) Tuesday night - Passover Seder meal
Nissan 14 - Wed. Crucifixion/preparation day for High Sabbath feast
Nissan 14/15 (eve) #1 eve
Nissan 15 - Thurs. Feast of Unleavened Bread. #1 day
Nissan 15/16 (eve) #2 eve
Nissan 16 - Fri - #2 day
Nissan 16/17 (eve) start of Sabbath #3 eve
Nissan 17 weekly Sabbath #3 day
Nissan 17/18 1st day of the week begins - Resurrection

So you have Yeshua's death before unleavened where previously you said he died DURING or on the 1st day of unleavened. So in your scenario when were the lambs killed, before, during or after the crucifixion?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Jesus was already buried by the first day of the 15th - Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Jesus died the day before on the 14th, having had the Passover meal the evening before at the beginning of the 14th. The 14th was also the preparation day for the feast of Unleavened Bread.

You just said previously, he had his seder on the 1st day of unleavened. If you believe what you just said, the Last Supper was NOT a seder.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Jesus was already buried by the first day of the 15th - Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Jesus died the day before on the 14th, having had the Passover meal the evening before at the beginning of the 14th. The 14th was also the preparation day for the feast of Unleavened Bread.

So no lambs had been killed yet so it was not a seder of Passover.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You may enjoy this thread here that I created a while back.

My New Chronology on the Passion Week

I've read the theory regarding the 2 different days for Passover before. I read the link you posted and there are holes all through it. One big one is the 72 hr theory and raising at 3 PM on Shabbat. We know for a fact (because we have 2 eyewitness on the road to Emmaus), that He dies on a Friday and raised on Sunday. Also, it was night time when He rose...read the verses regarding the guards at the tomb.

 

[1stcenturylady]

So in your scenario he died a day AFTER the lambs were killed?

The lambs were killed on the 14th at the beginning of twilight, which to our calendar would have been the evening of the 13th, roasted and eaten the same day, the 14th, all on the same day as the Crucifixion.

The 15th is the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened bread, a high Sabbath, but many consider Passover as the first day of the whole feast.

Jesus rose from the dead on Saturday night - the beginning of the first day of the week.