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Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

fhansen

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The original creation of man must have been with a nature that was susceptible to sin, as they did so in the garden of Eden! Unless you think that somehow between creation and the fall sin entered? This is not in the Bible. The fact that the devil could have tempted Adam and Eve, and then get them to sin, shows that they had the capacity to sin, or else the devil would have failed, as he did when he tried to tempt Jesus!
Of course they had the capacity to sin, in that they were free to do so. But they were not created to sin, as if God wanted them to sin even after commanding them not to-or else God would be the author of sin and every atrocious act of humanity against humanity would be directly willed and caused by Him. No man could be to blame in that case, and God would be no better than the devil himself.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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She needed a Savior, yes, and His name is Jesus, who-is-God, yes, and Mary knew she needed the Savior. So she simply says, "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior", no reference to time of salvation, only to her need for God. Either way I doubt that all who were saved from the OT times necessarily heard Christ's name or saw Him.

If she was in her middle teens when she spoke of her need of a Saviour, then it is an obvious conclusion, that at that time, she was not saved. Only if one an a doctrinal "ax to grind", will this issue be pressed! Jesus Christ is the only Person not have any sin, and completely sinless, as He is God Incarnate. When the Bible says "ALL have sinned" (Romans 3:23), and that "There is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10), we can safely include Mary, because there is not a single reference in the New Testament that even hints that she was ever without sin. This is some late RC teaching, that is from fallible man, and not the Infallible Word of God!
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Of course they had the capacity to sin, in that they were free to do so. But they were not created to sin, as if God wanted them to sin even after commanding them not to-or else God would be the author of sin and every atrocious act of humanity against humanity would be directly willed and caused by Him. No man could be to blame in that case, and God would be no better than the devil himself.

put it simply. Man was created with a "nature" that has "free will" as do angels. Either they obey or disobey the Lord. God did not make us as beings that are incapable of sinning, because if He did, then they could never have sinned!
 
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fhansen

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Generally speaking the Eastern Orthodox have also historically believed that Mary remained sinless, with less explanation how that might be-the RCC likes to get wordy of course! And yes, man is capable of sin, as I said. Mary could've sinned -but didn't. Again, the only way this could possibly work is for her to be and remain in union with God; separation from Him being the essence of Original Sin. But she could still sin if she so chose.
 
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ViaCrucis

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ViaCrucis

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Thats what all this discussion is about!

Transubstantiation is a particular theory of how the bread and wine of the Eucharist are Christ's body and blood. The more general term is known as the Real Presence. Transubstantiation is a theory of the Real Presence, but one can believe in the Real Presence without believing in Transubstantiation.

Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans accept the Real Presence, but don't subscribe to Transubstantiation. Transubstantiation is a view that is unique to Catholicism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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You have quoted when Jesus says "this IS My body...blood", where "is" in the Greek is "ἐστι". When the bread and wine are distributed in Church, and the recipients eat and drink, at what time do these actually BECOME the body/blood of Jesus Christ? Is it when consumed in the body? If so, than "ἐστι" is the wrong Greek word, as a "change" take place, which would require, "ἀλλάσσω"! Jesus NEVER said to anyone that bread and wine would CHANGE (ἀλλάσσω) into anything, at any time. So, where is this "teaching" from, since Jesus Himself says only "ἐστι", which indeed can be taken as "symbolic", and not "ἀλλάσσω"! This is conclusive that the RC teaching on Transubstantiation is not anywhere in the Bible!

Speaking as a Lutheran we don't use the language of "change", we use the language of "is". It is Christ's body and blood.

How this can be so.
How this happens.
When this takes place.
Etc.

Are questions we regard as fundamentally inconsequential. Christian truth is not determined by philosophy or empirical study, but by the word of God. Christ has said "This is My body", and thus it is what it is. When we come together and receive the bread and the wine of the Eucharist we have every confidence that God's word and promise is true, and therefore we are receiving the very and actual flesh and blood of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. Beyond this truth we refuse to speculate, we are not interested in attempts to rationalize, explain, or make sense of God's holy mysteries, but instead to receive them in faith; for when God speaks He speaks truth, and we as God's people confess and bear this truth.

How can ordinary water cleanse a person of their sin? Because God has declared in His word that baptism is for the remission of sins because Baptism unites us to the all-sufficient atoning work of Jesus Christ. Ordinary water can do no such thing on its own, but Baptism is water connected to God's word, making it be what it is. We do not explain how this can be, we instead accept this on faith.

How can faith deliver a sinner from unrighteousness to righteousness? Because this faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) through which God Himself, by the Means He has established, causes the all-sufficient work of Christ to be apprehended by us. God causes it to happen. It is not by the senses, or by rational philosophical argument, or by empirical investigation that these things are shown to be true--but by the word and promise of God in Jesus which is given to us and which is received by faith.

How can the preaching of the Gospel give faith? Because God has promised to work through His word to create faith. (Romans 10:17)

How can any of the things we confess to be true be true? Not by the power of the intellect, not by human reason, not by the senses--but by faith these things are received. They can only be received by faith--and indeed all that is not in faith is sin.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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put it simply. Man was created with a "nature" that has "free will" as do angels. Either they obey or disobey the Lord. God did not make us as beings that are incapable of sinning, because if He did, then they could never have sinned!
yes
 
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Arsenios

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then Mary could not have been sinless! As someone sinless does not need a personal Saviour, which is exactly what she needed!

She had Him far more personally than you and I can ever have Him...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Them being correct, we know that she needed a Savior.
Were she blameless, that would not be so.
"My soul is magnifying the Lord,
And...
My Spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior..."


Sounds saved already to me...
In the first week of her pregnancy...

She already had in her womb the Savior she needed...
Not for sinlessness, but for conjoining with Him...

Arsenios
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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"My soul is magnifying the Lord,
And...
My Spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior..."


Sounds saved already to me...
In the first week of her pregnancy...

She already had in her womb the Savior she needed...
Not for sinlessness, but for conjoining with Him...

Arsenios

do you believe that Mary was sinless and never sinned? because if she was, then why the need of Jesus Christ Coming in the first place, as she could have been the Saviour, which needed to be sinless?
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Speaking as a Lutheran we don't use the language of "change", we use the language of "is". It is Christ's body and blood.

How this can be so.
How this happens.
When this takes place.
Etc.

Are questions we regard as fundamentally inconsequential. Christian truth is not determined by philosophy or empirical study, but by the word of God. Christ has said "This is My body", and thus it is what it is. When we come together and receive the bread and the wine of the Eucharist we have every confidence that God's word and promise is true, and therefore we are receiving the very and actual flesh and blood of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. Beyond this truth we refuse to speculate, we are not interested in attempts to rationalize, explain, or make sense of God's holy mysteries, but instead to receive them in faith; for when God speaks He speaks truth, and we as God's people confess and bear this truth.

How can ordinary water cleanse a person of their sin? Because God has declared in His word that baptism is for the remission of sins because Baptism unites us to the all-sufficient atoning work of Jesus Christ. Ordinary water can do no such thing on its own, but Baptism is water connected to God's word, making it be what it is. We do not explain how this can be, we instead accept this on faith.

How can faith deliver a sinner from unrighteousness to righteousness? Because this faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) through which God Himself, by the Means He has established, causes the all-sufficient work of Christ to be apprehended by us. God causes it to happen. It is not by the senses, or by rational philosophical argument, or by empirical investigation that these things are shown to be true--but by the word and promise of God in Jesus which is given to us and which is received by faith.

How can the preaching of the Gospel give faith? Because God has promised to work through His word to create faith. (Romans 10:17)

How can any of the things we confess to be true be true? Not by the power of the intellect, not by human reason, not by the senses--but by faith these things are received. They can only be received by faith--and indeed all that is not in faith is sin.

-CryptoLutheran

sounds like a cop out!
 
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fhansen

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do you believe that Mary was sinless and never sinned? because if she was, then why the need of Jesus Christ Coming in the first place, as she could have been the Saviour, which needed to be sinless?
The Church has always taught that Mary's sinlessness was strictly due to the role and work of the Savior.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Whenever I have a "Catholics are doing something evil" rama in my thoughts, I let it sit for a while and just live in the question. Quite often it's just the sin living in my body trying to participate where it is not eligible.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Catholics say, that the "sacrifice of the mass", is a representation of Calvary, not a re-sacrifice. But the breakdown of what is happening during the consecration, in the Catholic Encyclopedia, sounds like a separate sacrifice to me. Here is a discussion I was having with a Catholic friend of mine-

" This statement is from the Catholic encyclopedia. You might say "its not cannon" but not everything the priest and seminary teach is in the cannon, and to discover the subtle differences you have to read the encyclopedia. Written by priest and important "theologians". You need a lawyer to read it. The exposition of "the sacrifice of the mass" is Pages long. But I found that this summary sums up what they believe about it. It states-

  • the twofold consecration must show not only the relative, but also the absolute moment of sacrifice, so that the Mass will not consist in a mere relation, but will be revealed as in itself a real sacrifice;
  • the act of sacrifice (actio sacrifica), veiled in the double consecration, must refer directly to the sacrificialmatter — i.e. the Eucharistic Christ Himself — not to the elements of bread and wine or their unsubstantial species;
  • the sacrifice of Christ must somehow result in a kenosis, not in a glorification, since this latter is at most the object of the sacrifice, not the sacrifice itself;
  • since this postulated kenosis, however, can be no real, but only a mystical or sacramental one, we must appraise intelligently those moments which approximate in any degree the "mystical slaying" to a real exinanition, instead of rejecting them.
#1 And most important-the only "moment of sacrifice" was the last beat Jesus' heart made on the cross. If there is in the mass a definite "moment of sacrifice" that is a symbolic re-sacrifice.

#2 This is proven in the next statement-"the Mass will not consist in a mere relation, but will be revealed as in itself a real sacrifice;" This says that it does not just relate to calvary, but is "In Itself a real sacrifice". Direct contradiction.

#3 The term "Mystical slaying" forever changed my comfort in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

#4. In the Eucharistic prayers said before the consecration, the priest says, "May my sacrifice and yours be acceptable to God" Again, another separate sacrifice

#5. If by cannon definition the sacrifice is the same as on Calvary except that it is unbloody, then why was I taught from preschool that it was actually the very blood of Christ, NOT a symbol?"

How can Catholics allow this to be in the Encyclopedia?
The eucharist where there is real presence and a separate event from the Eucharist (the liturgy) are not really comparable.
Could you point me to sections of the Catechism that talk about this aspect, I've read it before, but don't recall this part of the sacraments and the liturgy.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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The Church has always taught that Mary's sinlessness was strictly due to the role and work of the Savior.

How about the teaching of the Holy Bible? care to share just one Scripture that says Mary was ever sinless? Luke 1:47 clearly shows her to be a sinner!
 
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SolomonVII

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I can't tell you how good it is to see an almost-Orthodox Roman Catholic here...

We begin in small dosages - Simple inward directed prophesy - Knowing the heart of our brother, in all its diversity of good and evil - And in seeking within that knowing a helpful word or deed... Not always succeeding... The whole of it will come later, and there are degrees of vision according to our deeds and God's purposing... That is why this is a Faith, and not an impirico-logical structuring of belief according to written words...
It is ultimately faith or course, but it is a faith that does not contradict science and empirical experience. It is exactly because there are instances that we bond with each other so intimately, and see ourselves reflected in the love radiating from a dear one's eyes, that we can understand that the Biblical claims of us being all of one body may be true.
Moreover, the faith of believing this to be true, understanding that who we are ultimately goes beyond ordinary experience, leads to rational decisions to change behavior. To know in faith that we are of one body leads to leading one's life and treating others as if they and we are one and the same.

As the Solas embrace in their struggle against the involuntary imposition of the apostatic Papalists... You guys arguing back and forth is a veritable family feud worthy of a miniseries on NetFlix...
Maybe I have been here too long, but the bickering between Protestants and Catholics that go on here, and with Orthodox too, is something that I have come to regard as uninteresting and to engage only on that level is unrewarding.
It is difficult ideas that we are dealing with here, and the transcendant nature of religious ideals entails that the discussions always take place on the outer limits of what is known and knowable. We often have to stretch our imaginations to present ideas of the extraordinary into understandable terms, and it is therefore not hard to understand how people fail to grasp what we are attempting to say.



I understand that the current Pope is proclaiming some heretical (by R/C standards) view these days, and the Latin Church is having some issues as a result - Haven't researched it yet... Do you know about it?

Arsenios
Modern popes since Pope Paul VI in the nineteen sixties have restated traditional views on morality and sexuality that have put the faithful at odds with society, even more than is the case with the Orthodox. The current pope does not change any of these teachings- indeed he cannot, any more than a mathematician can change the answer to 2+2. What is true then is true now and always.
What the current pope has done is refrained from putting any emphasis on these kinds of teachings, and Catholics who have spent great effort affirming these teachings against a hostile and disapproving world feel abandoned by the current pope.
For example it is not easy for Catholics to follow Catholic teaching on birth control. Most Catholics don't, and the ones that do, do so with great effort. For these, the pope giving criticisms of Catholics for 'breeding like rabbits', the feeling is one of abandonment.

I myself am a bit more on the conservative side of the equation, but the reduction of prestige that the current pope has in the eyes of those who have traditionally most revered the papacy is not altogether an unwelcome trend. "The pope has given his statement; the matter is now settled" to me has always seemed to be an abuse of what the papacy is all about. It is ironic that the pope who started out by severely questioning the legitimacy of many of the bishops he accused of abusing their office finds himself subject to the same scrutiny.
This to me is not an altogether bad thing. It is good to differentiate from the legitimacy of ecclesiastical authority, and the politicization that often happens with any office that wields a lot of power and/or influence.
 
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Arsenios

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do you believe that Mary was sinless and never sinned? because if she was, then why the need of Jesus Christ Coming in the first place, as she could have been the Saviour, which needed to be sinless?
Necessary but not sufficient...
We understand Salvation differently...
For us, Salvation is two-fold: First, we regain the sinlessness of the Garden lost in Adam, and Second: We are grafted in to God by Baptism into the Body of Christ... This is what Mary did not have prior to Christ... It is why Baptism comes before Communion, because we need its purification in order to be prepared for being joined to Christ...

For you, you have an encounter with God that is life-transforming, and then Baptism is your public proclamation of that private event, and you can thereby proclaim your Salvation... That view was never a feature of any Christianity on earth for the first more than 1500 years of Christianity... From our perspective, what you had was an experience of God's CALL to you, and so holy is that Call, that it is easily perceived as Salvation itself...

"As many as have been Baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ..." Baptism is Done BY Christ THROUGH the means of His Servants in His Body, the Church, who are acting in obedience to Christ... (Baptizing them...) An action for the Apostles ministries by Christ's Command, and not a profoundly significant spiritual event...

The Blessed Virgin succeeded where Eve failed, and then gave birth to God in the flesh...

You DO call her Blessed, don't you?

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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It [the Faith of Christ] is ultimately faith of course, but it is a faith that does not contradict science and empirical experience.

I must needs jump in here, to return later God willing - It is late... For the Orthodox, it is not ultimtely faith, but primarily so... Which makes dogma, defining the boundaries of that faith, so crucially needed... Faith is what is acted on, you see... St. Thomas got it all addressed in words (Faith and Reason in the Summa and classes), then a year before his demise he had a vision and withdrew from both, saying "All I have written is straw..." No small matter... The Orthodox, you see, disciple that vision...

Thank-you for your lovely post! Have a blessed 2nd Day of Christmas!

Later - Gator/Gaiter! :)

How many years d'ye have under y'er keel?

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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