how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Ronald]

As I have said many times over now and you apparently are not "hearing" me, hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it.

I understand, YOU are saying, the wages of sin is death and that is only a consequence, not a judgment of God or any kind of punishment that inflicts pain, torment, torture, or destruction.
God is a God of Justice and sin will be judged. He created the Lake of Fire and those who break the Law, that He also created, must receive the penalty of death, spiritual and physical death -- unless they believe in Christ and receive His forgiveness. You are claiming this is not a Judgment that inflicts pain, torment and ultimately destruction, and that it is a consequence apart from God's doing. That is like saying God is not responsible for the judgment - which is the consequence. You are separating God from this pain, suffering and judgment as if He didn't create it. IT IS HIS JUDGMENT, NO ONE ELSES. Did someone else create Hades or the Lake of Fire? Was this principal of the "wages of sin is death" not instituted by God?
The CONSEQUENCE OF SIN IS THE JUDGMENT OF DEATH THAT GOD WARRANTS AND ISSUES. THIS INCLUDES PAIN, TORMENT, SUFFERING AND ULTIMATELY DESTRUCTION (of which I don't adhere to be eternal.) Don't try to create some abstract realm that God has nothing to do with, like some back hole that has an automatic suction for sinners, that God just warns us about. "It there, I don't have anything to do with it, I'm just warning you ..."

Let's start by going back to Genesis....what does the account of the first sin say? If you eat of the tree you will die...right. Now what happens when Adam and Eve sinned? They were punished with pain during child birth and weeds....notice the punishment was pain and weeds, whereas the consequence of sin is death.

You are wrong, He said, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen. 1:17
The pain in childbirth and the toiling with the earth was only a small part of the punishment. Death was the consequence and this consequence came into the world ON THAT VERY DAY. Sin entered the world. What was perfect physically, their bodies and nature itself, was now infected with sin, Immediately death to cells, distortion of nature began. Physically death entered into their bodies and world all around them. Things began to die, not suddenly as they didn't immediately die, but their days were numbered and their genetic code mutated and they were no longer perfect. All illnesses began to emerge, viruses, bacteria due to this distortion in nature and they would suffer and these imperfect mutations would accumulate over time and pass down through generations as well. That is the physical death that happened. Spiritually death was also the consequence - separation from God.
That original sin we inherited separates us from God. We are born separated from God, which is the curse of sin as well. So we get sick, are born with defects and we die physically, are days are numbered. And we are separated from God UNTIL HE DRAWS US TO HIMSELF BY HIS GRACE AND ENABLES US TO RECEIVE FORGIVENESS FROM THE CURSE AND BE RECONCILED TO GOD AT THAT TIME - WHICH IS OUR PURPOSE.

 

[Ronald]

.

 

[razzelflabben]

I understand, YOU are saying, the wages of sin is death and that is only a consequence, not a judgment of God or any kind of punishment that inflicts pain, torment, torture, or destruction.

how can you draw that conclusion based on what I have said? Seriously I want to know...when I say that hell is eternal torment how can you claim I believe that it is not a place of "pain, torment, torture, or destruction." I don't get what you are not reading that I am clearly saying...but I really wish you would stop trying to reinvent what I am saying. It is harmful, disrespectful and otherwise rude and disturbing.

God is a God of Justice and sin will be judged. He created the Lake of Fire and those who break the Law, that He also created, must receive the penalty of death, spiritual and physical death -- unless they believe in Christ and receive His forgiveness. You are claiming this is not a Judgment that inflicts pain, torment and ultimately destruction, and that it is a consequence apart from God's doing. That is like saying God is not responsible for the judgment - which is the consequence. You are separating God from this pain, suffering and judgment as if He didn't create it. IT IS HIS JUDGMENT, NO ONE ELSES. Did someone else create Hades or the Lake of Fire? Was this principal of the "wages of sin is death" not instituted by God?

Well, let's revisit what I really did say not what you reinvented it to say...I said that God was the Judge...you know, the one that hands out the penalty of the law....

I said that the lake of fire was created for satan and his demons but that God would use them to throw in death and hades/hell...and I provided scripture that says just that.

I said that what we know as hell is eternal torment...

I also said that hell/death is the consequence of sin....which is the only part of what I did say that you even come close to hearing.

Yes, we need Jesus and the salvation He gives to avoid sin and death...yes God is the reason for the law, I said that too and completed it with scripture...

Now how about seeing if you can stop reinventing what I am saying into something offensive and putting my name on it as if it was me and not you saying such offensive things to what I actually do believe and have said? I really don't know what you think you gain by continually misrepresenting what I am saying.

The CONSEQUENCE OF SIN IS THE JUDGMENT OF DEATH THAT GOD WARRANTS AND ISSUES. THIS INCLUDES PAIN, TORMENT, SUFFERING AND ULTIMATELY DESTRUCTION (of which I don't adhere to be eternal.) Don't try to create some abstract realm that God has nothing to do with, like some back hole that has an automatic suction for sinners, that God just warns us about. "It there, I don't have anything to do with it, I'm just warning you ..."

Huh? I showed in scripture where the reason that the consequence of death even exists if because God is holy and sin is NOT...that means that it is a natural law of man's relationship with God.

You are wrong, He said, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen. 1:17
The pain in childbirth and the toiling with the earth was only a small part of the punishment.

lol...notice that it says nothing about punishment of death only consequence of death...the punishment came later and all of mankind would be well served to use the punishments to remind them of the consequence rather than try to put an end to the reminder.

Death was the consequence and this consequence came into the world ON THAT VERY DAY. Sin entered the world. What was perfect physically, their bodies and nature itself, was now infected with sin, Immediately death to cells, distortion of nature began. Physically death entered into their bodies and world all around them. Things began to die, not suddenly as they didn't immediately die, but their days were numbered and their genetic code mutated and they were no longer perfect. All illnesses began to emerge, viruses, bacteria due to this distortion in nature and they would suffer and these imperfect mutations would accumulate over time and pass down through generations as well. That is the physical death that happened. Spiritually death was also the consequence - separation from God.

yep...just like I said, death is the consequence of sin....and you disagree with my by saying the exact same thing I said....are you one of those who wants to argue just to argue? or maybe one of those that is too prideful to accept that someone else might be able to speak truth?

That original sin we inherited separates us from God. We are born separated from God, which is the curse of sin as well. So we get sick, are born with defects and we die physically, are days are numbered. And we are separated from God UNTIL HE DRAWS US TO HIMSELF BY HIS GRACE AND ENABLES US TO RECEIVE FORGIVENESS FROM THE CURSE AND BE RECONCILED TO GOD AT THAT TIME - WHICH IS OUR PURPOSE.

yep...all within what I really did say...see, it really helps communication if you actually respond to what is being said without first reinventing it into something that is not said then try to argue against what is agreed upon.

 

[Ronald]

Matthew 19:16
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

If you back up and actually read my posts, you discover that by examining the numerous scriptures where the English translations of the words, eternal, everlasting, forever, ARE VARIABLE TERMS. In many usages, these words describe temporal things which will someday pass away or have already passed. The first earth and heavens will pass away. All former things will pass away except God, His domain, His Word and those who are in Christ. So in the verse above, eternal life is an accurate translation. However, notice in the next translation which is a KEY VERSE, the same word is translated differently because many usages of aion or aionios describe temporal things which mean: age(s), generation(s), epoch, lifetime(s), world and so "everlasting" would correctly be translated as age-lasting or age-during.

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Mark 3:29
"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

again the word 'aionios' is used for eternal. This shows that there will be NO forgiveness ever for such who do this sin. To say there will be forgiveness for these and one day they shall come to God as some universalist do contradicts scripture.

Here's a more literal translation:
"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' YLT

"But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin.” ASV
Here we see also age-lasting.

"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages." Weymouth New Testament
Here we see "for ever" can be understood as for ages. And "sin of the Ages" also implies temporal.

Verses that use aion or aionis also in a temporal sense:
1 Cor. 10:11 "ends of the ages are come" -- obviously "ends or eternity" doesn't make sense.
Eph. 1:21 "ages to come". Translated correctly since "eternity to come" doesn't work because it is describing temporal time periods.
Gen. 13:15 "... I give to you and your descendants forever." Young's Literal Translation says "to the age". Have the Jews possessed all the land forever or for ages? No, they had it and lost it, then regained partially and lost it again, then now partially.
Ex. 12:17 "throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance" This describes Jewish feasts which were temporary. The Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover were shadows of Christ, the Bread of Life. We now take communion and celebrate His resurrection on Easter. Those feasts/ordinances were for their generations and temporal.
Ex. 27:20, 21 "... to cause the lamp to burn "always" (for ages); "... it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations ..." (for ages unto their generations)

 

[mkgal1]

Does the God you worship use violence to get what He wants? Is He obligated to conform to His own terms of justice? Would He forsake and never look back at you except to maintain hell's heat eternally so the torture doesn't ease up?

....or not? What is His true nature and character to you? This question is what I see might be all we are left with after exhausting every verse and word translation trying to figure this out.

This article really resonated with me, in this regard:


----> Eventually David becomes the great king of Israel. David, having established his capital in Jerusalem, wanted to build a temple for the God of Israel. But God declined David’s offer to build a house for him, saying,

“You have shed much blood and have waged great wars; you shall not build a house to my name, because you have shed so much blood in my sight on the earth.”
(1 Chronicles 22:8)

David as a man of violence could not build the house of God. But God made this enormously significant promise to David:

A son shall be born to you; he shall be a man of peace. I will give him peace from all his enemies on every side; for his name shall be Solomon (peaceful), and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for my name. He shall be a son to me, and I will be a father to him, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever. (1 Chronicles 22:9–10)

At first glance it would seem that God’s promise to David—that he would have a peaceful son who would reign as king and build the house of the Lord—is fulfilled in King Solomon. But is it? Granted, Solomon built a temple that would be identified as the temple of Yahweh for four centuries, and in retrospect we can see Solomon’s temple prefiguring something better to come. But is that all Solomon built? No.

Solomon built a harem for his seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines.

Solomon built temples to the foreign gods worshiped by his pagan wives.

Solomon built a professional standing army maintained by heavy taxation.

Solomon built all this with conscripted slave labor, including thirty thousand Hebrew slaves!

In a word, Solomon built…Egypt!

[snip]

By the time Jesus was born the temple Solomon built had been destroyed, then rebuilt by Zerubbabel, and then greatly expanded by Herod the Great. But Jesus held little regard for Herod’s temple. He famously protested what the temple had become by borrowing the words of Jeremiah who had predicted the destruction of the first temple, saying: “Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your sight?” (Jeremiah 7:11) When the Jerusalem aristocracy objected to Jesus’ denunciation of their magnificent temple, they asked Jesus what sign he would show them to justify his actions. Jesus’ cryptic reply and John’s commentary are enormously important.

“The Jews then said to him, ‘What sign can you show us for doing this?’ Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ The Jews then said, ‘This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking of the temple of his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.” (John 2:18–22)

Jesus explicitly predicted the destruction of the temple on several occasions. (Matthew 24:1–3; Luke 19:41–44; 21:20–24) But what Jesus is doing here is more subtle and more significant than that. Jesus is associating the destruction of the present temple and the construction of a new temple with his own death and resurrection. More importantly, in some mysterious way this new temple will be his body. And in case you haven’t realized it, we have discovered the true son of David, the true man of peace, the one who builds the true temple. Of course, it’s Jesus!~God Doesn't Build His House By Violence - Brian Zahnd

 

[Ronald]

.

 

[Shempster]

“The Jews then said to him, ‘What sign can you show us for doing this?’ Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ The Jews then said, ‘This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking of the temple of his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.” (John 2:18–22)

....while people keep focusing on the physical temple, missing the entire point.
Well played, my friend, and well explained.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you back up and actually read my posts, you discover that by examining the numerous scriptures where the English translations of the words, eternal, everlasting, forever, ARE VARIABLE TERMS. In many usages, these words describe temporal things which will someday pass away or have already passed. The first earth and heavens will pass away. All former things will pass away except God, His domain, His Word and those who are in Christ. So in the verse above, eternal life is an accurate translation. However, notice in the next translation which is a KEY VERSE, the same word is translated differently because many usages of aion or aionios describe temporal things which mean: age(s), generation(s), epoch, lifetime(s), world and so "everlasting" would correctly be translated as age-lasting or age-during.




Here's a more literal translation:
"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' YLT

"But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin.” ASV
Here we see also age-lasting.

"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages." Weymouth New Testament
Here we see "for ever" can be understood as for ages. And "sin of the Ages" also implies temporal.

Verses that use aion or aionis also in a temporal sense:
1 Cor. 10:11 "ends of the ages are come" -- obviously "ends or eternity" doesn't make sense.
Eph. 1:21 "ages to come". Translated correctly since "eternity to come" doesn't work because it is describing temporal time periods.
Gen. 13:15 "... I give to you and your descendants forever." Young's Literal Translation says "to the age". Have the Jews possessed all the land forever or for ages? No, they had it and lost it, then regained partially and lost it again, then now partially.
Ex. 12:17 "throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance" This describes Jewish feasts which were temporary. The Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover were shadows of Christ, the Bread of Life. We now take communion and celebrate His resurrection on Easter. Those feasts/ordinances were for their generations and temporal.
Ex. 27:20, 21 "... to cause the lamp to burn "always" (for ages); "... it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations ..." (for ages unto their generations)

its interesting how some who profess to be christians follow the bible the KJV and other follow other man made interpretations of other versions. There is a great difference in many version of the things of God. Some groups have altered text to create their own doctrines Like the JW's and their translation of John 1:1 etc. Or to escape the consequence of THE BIBLE (the King James Bible).

Lets put it this way, I and many other true christians are King James Bible christians, if that helps the difference. I believe the Bible and don't need to twist Greek words and escape the clear consequence of text. Yes I am not against understanding the word in the scripture and getting more meaning, but don't change the word. The context always defines the meaning as this very

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Here we see that everlasting punishment is equal in scope and contrary to the opposite eternal life. The same greek word for both everlasting and eternal is used. So if any in the Universalist camp or other camps, try to say that life eternal is forever and ever and never ends, they must also say that everlasting punishment is for ever and ever and never ends. This verse blast them out of the water. Many fancy twist have been made to escape the clear consequence of this verse and many others.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Here's a more literal translation:
"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' YLT

No that doesn't even make sense. They are in danger of eternal damnation as the text says and the word eternal there and it means perpetual. So they are in danger of perpetual damnation


it reads this way

"29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."


"aionios- perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). " (Strongs)

The way you interpret it it sounds like they will have forgiveness one day. But Jesus said they "hath never forgiveness". This means they will be eternally damned or as we read be in danger ( not the word danger) of "eternal damnation". This is perpetual damnation.

 

[mkgal1]

its interesting how some who profess to be christians follow the bible the KJV and other follow other man made interpretations of other versions.

This is probably a whole other topic.....but what were Christians following prior to the KJV, then? Were they not Christian?

 

[Ronald]

first off the eternal torment you talk about is the consequence of sin ...People who get all upset about eternal torment don't understand ...

...You are talking about the hell fire and brimstone crowd of which I am not and neither is scripture...

... not torture-God is not torturing anyone...hell is a place of torment]...

In these quotes from YOU, you seem to imply that eternal torment is not torture and can't understand why people get all upset over it.
Then I commented if it isn't torture, then nothing on this planet is and since YOU claim that the "fire and brimstone" isn't literal, you're not part of that crowd or it's not really part of this torment, then this is your position. I didn't misrepresent it, these are your words.
Fire and brimstone is very much a part of the Lake of Fire. Destruction is, as well as pain and suffering (regardless of however long it endures).

Then you somehow separate the consequence of sin as if it isn't a judgment of God, since He doesn't cause this suffering. He created Hades and the Lake of Fire and is all powerful.
So then, He would be doing the tormenting? Or is He separate from that and this realm just enacts its own suffering and the sinner just got sucked into it's darkness?

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is probably a whole other topic.....but what were Christians following prior to the KJV, then? Were they not Christian?

they had the text in parts and followed the OT. They also had the apostles right there in person in many cases.

The early so called church fathers quoted many text that are in the KJV and not in the so called earlier versions. The text were quoted by men way before the oldest so called versions. Showing that the KJV had it right all along. Or rather the manuscripts that are used for the KJV.

an example mark 16 the last section is doubted in many modern versions. Yet some of the so called "church fathers" quoted it all over the place. Showing that it was in use and known.

Or the verse in Matthew 5:22, where we read that whosoever is angry at his brother "without a cause" shall be in danger of the judgement. This was quoted way back in the early so called "fathers". Way before the so called "oldest" manuscripts that take it out.

So we see that some quoted text very early and much later they were not in some manuscripts, but the KJV still has them. What does that tell you.

for example 1 John 5:7 was quoted by Cyprian in 250 ad around. Yet the so called "oldest" manuscripts don't have it that are used for many modern translations.

Does anyone not doubt whether the devil has been attacking scripture and the doctrines all along.

anyway, yes this is a 45 hour or more talk.

 

[Ronald]

its interesting how some who profess to be christians follow the bible the KJV and other follow other man made interpretations of other versions. There is a great difference in many version of the things of God. Some groups have altered text to create their own doctrines Like the JW's and their translation of John 1:1 etc. Or to escape the consequence of THE BIBLE (the King James Bible).

Lets put it this way, I and many other true christians are King James Bible christians, if that helps the difference. I believe the Bible and don't need to twist Greek words and escape the clear consequence of text. Yes I am not against understanding the word in the scripture and getting more meaning, but don't change the word. The context always defines the meaning as this very

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Here we see that everlasting punishment is equal in scope and contrary to the opposite eternal life. The same greek word for both everlasting and eternal is used. So if any in the Universalist camp or other camps, try to say that life eternal is forever and ever and never ends, they must also say that everlasting punishment is for ever and ever and never ends. This verse blast them out of the water. Many fancy twist have been made to escape the clear consequence of this verse and many others.

The KJV is a beautiful version, however there are errors in translation as there are errors in other translations as well. You can accept this or not.

 

[razzelflabben]

In these quotes from YOU, you seem to imply that eternal torment is not torture and can't understand why people get all upset over it.

lol and yet you didn't include the quote in which I said that it was torturous as in the cake sitting on the table was torturing him...or some other similar thing...you see, it was addressed and clarified and you are picking and choosing so you can misrepresent me and that is a huge problem.

Then I commented if it isn't torture, then nothing on this planet is and since YOU claim that the "fire and brimstone" isn't literal,

now...I did NOT say that fire and brimstone was not literal...come on..if you want to argue about something make it something I said.

you're not part of that crowd or it's not really part of this torment, then this is your position. I didn't misrepresent it, these are your words.

lol and yet you did NOT include all of my words, you know that taking someone out of context is equal to saying lies about what they said don't you? So my patience is wearing thin with your lies about what I said and I am once again asking you to stop already...soon I will be demanding you stop misrepresenting me.

Fire and brimstone is very much a part of the Lake of Fire. Destruction is, as well as pain and suffering (regardless of however long it endures).

and nothing I have said should give you cause to have a problem...so I will assume at this point you are just trying to flame me which is rude and disturbing.

Then you somehow separate the consequence of sin as if it isn't a judgment of God, since He doesn't cause this suffering. He created Hades and the Lake of Fire and is all powerful.
So then, He would be doing the tormenting? Or is He separate from that and this realm just enacts its own suffering and the sinner just got sucked into it's darkness?

huh? I said that death is the consequence of sin and showed such in scripture while talking about the torment of hell and God being judge...you really do need to review everything I said in context before you hurt yourself trying to reinvent it.

Oh, let me clarify something that I also previously said in clarification. I believe that we should teach hell fire and brimstone in the same proportions as scripture does which is why I am not part of the hell fire and brimstone crowd because they teach it out of proportion with scripture not because there is no hell fire and brimstone.

 

[mkgal1]

I've found this page to be helpful in my understanding:

“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Hebrews 9:14

That the lake of fire purifies sinners via destroying sin is evident when one takes into account the lexical range of the Greek words theion (sulfur/brimstone) and basanizos (torment) as well as considering the imagery of divine fire which, throughout the Bible, has purificatory connotations (see Psalms 12:6; Zechariah 13:9; Malachi 3:2; and Matthew 3:12). ~The Purifying Flames of Hell

Basanizos (torment) --my source is the page linked below-can also mean "touchstone" or "Lydian stone"...used for purification.

Now the Greek Septuagint at Ezekiel 3:20:
Quote:
"And when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits a trespass, and I shall bring punishment [basanos---noun form of punishment, from the noun form of the verb basanizo]"

Now here's where it really gets interesting. Basanos meant a "touchstone", something which was used to test the purity of gold, silver and other metals. In actual fact, it was used to denote an examination. Check this out:

Quote:
Strong's Greek Cognate: #931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).

[In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288).

931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. (WP, 1, 37).]

Quote:
In the case of the ones being tormented forever and ever, it was future passive, and therefore being done by someone else - it was, symbolically, an examination by someone to test the quality of those who are dead in the lake of fire, the second death. They have paid the fixed penalty. What is being addressed here is an examination, to show what was necessary to remove sin forever, so that the end result would be for them never, ever, to sin again.
From here it is just a short leap over to the granddaddy and most beloved of all ET'ers verses, Matthew 25:46

Quote:
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment [kolasin], but the righteous into eternal life."
As mentioned in other threads, the Greek word for punishment used here is
"kolasis" which means "punishment for the correction of the offender", not a penal punishment that goes on for eternity, as ET'ers so blithely love to point out.

So, in summary, we have "basanizo" (torment) being closely linked to "kolasis" (an age-corrective punishment), hence a very strong indication that the author of the terrifying Revelation 20:10, "tormented day and night forever and ever" really meant an "age-enduring torment of a corrective nature" in which the sinner would eventually be restored to fellowship with God.


Read more: The Greek Word for "Torment" (BASANIZO) Likely Means Torment of a "Corrective" Nature (Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

.....and here:

Basanos means to test, and was also known as a black touchstone which was used in metal working. It was a Lydian stone used in rubbing gold to test it's purity. In Strong's Greek Lexicon under this word's definition, it says sickness was once equated to torture. If we take all of these definitions and past scriptural proof, we can deduct that this “sickness” is sin. The creature in the lake will metaphorically be “rubbed by the touchstone” (tormented, vexed, tossed) until the sin nature is destroyed and the creature is made pure.

In other places where the English word “torment” occurs, we see other translation errors. In Matthew 25:46 where unbelievers go away into “eternal torments”, the Greek word used is Kolasis. Kolasis means temporary punishment, often in reference to horticulture: pruning, cutting away, etc. We should all know in gardening if the weed is left or the plant isn't pruned, the garden becomes sick. Pruning cuts away all that is ugly and unhealthy. This mirrors the Basano stone in gold testing. The impurities/weeds must be burnt/cut away, and the gold/garden is purified.

So we can see from this original word that again, the Lake of Fire is not literal hot fire or torture for no reason. It is a stirring up; a testing and purification in God's holy presence.

Once we begin to understand the use of the Lake as purification we can delve deeper into what elements are used within the Lake. Sulfur and brimstone are said to burn here. Let's examine these:

There are some who argue that the fire must be a literal place of burning and torture, because it is often associated with "brimstone." Revelation 21:8 says,
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Does the "brimstone" prove that this is a literal fire that tortures men? Actually, the very opposite is true. Brimstone is sulphur, as any concordance will show. The original Greek word for sulphur, or "brimstone," is theion. Its root is theo, which is the same word usually translated "God." (Note: Theology is the study of God.)

Sulphur, or theion, was considered to be sacred to the ancient Greeks. It was used to consecrate for divine service, to PURIFY, and to cleanse. They used it in religious rites to purify their temples. They would even rub it on their bodies to signify consecration to God. In its verb form the word theou means "to hallow, make divine, or to dedicate to God."

This is what early Greeks believed about fire, and much of the New Testament was written for Roman/Greek audiences. Fire, sulfur, and brimstone were symbols of purification!~Godrules Forum • View topic - Basanos and theion: interesting Greek terms

.....to me, the imagery of polishing gem stones also comes up.

 

[Ronald]

I said that it was torturous

You said "torment is not torture" and "God doesn't torture" --- those are words -- make up your mind. I pulled those quotes and they stand alone, no need for the rest.
It like someone saying, "There is no hell!" and then someone else quotes them for saying that and you they come back and say, "Well, you took it out of context." I don't care what context or how many words they have around it -- I see that the person said, "there is no hell" and the rest doesn't matter.

now...I did NOT say that fire and brimstone was not literal...come on..if you want to argue about something make it something I said.

So fire and brimstone is real and people are thrown into it, for eternity and that is not torture -- just torment AND so I don't assume anything, IS GOD RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT PAIN AND SUFFERING?

Oh, let me clarify something that I also previously said in clarification. I believe that we should teach hell fire and brimstone in the same proportions as scripture does which is why I am not part of the hell fire and brimstone crowd because they teach it out of proportion with scripture not because there is no hell fire and brimstone.

So you are not part of the "hell fire and brimstone crowd". What does that mean? You either believe people go there and are "tormented" forever or not --_ burning in a literal fire If you believe that there is hell fire, then you are part of that crowd. You may not care to talk about it, you may avoid it or simply play it down: "I don't see why people get so upset about hell ..."
In what proportions should churches teach hell fire and brimstone. As much as the Bible teaches it -- which is cut and dry, if you don't go to Heaven, you go to Hell. It's hard to avoid, it's there almost every time one is taught about salvation, being saved, forgiveness ...
What are we being saved from? Destruction in the Lake of Fire.
If we believe in Jesus, we go to heaven, if not -- destruction in the Lake of Fire.
The whole Bible speaks from the beginning of a SAVIOR and it's in the back of everyone's mind - Savior from what? --- destruction in the Lake of Fire.
We ask someone, "Are you saved?" They say yes or no or saved from what. We spread the gospel, we witness, we warn people and all this to share with people, Jesus, His gift of eternal _ so that they will avoid destruction in the Lake of Fire.
I don't like churches that use this in the forefront of their teaching but it can't be absent. My pastor always started with Grace and said to always end with Grace.
Listen, I think we are on a different page and believe differently -- let's just quit, we aren't in agreement, you can't even own up to your own quotes.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus said "few there be that find" the way to life many go the broad road to destruction.

I happened to find this thread discussing that verse. What's being destroyed is sin.

This comment seems to get right to the heart of it:

FEW in this life, but ALL eventually. That's the message of the Gospel. The universal redemption of mankind is why everyone is resurrected, not because they believe this or that. Belief (and unbelief) will certainly be corrected.

Luther compared faith to one's grip on a bag of treasure. Everyone has a different grip. Ultimately, it's about the treasure - resurrection and immortality.

If salvation turns out to be universal - would you be willing to be corrected? It's pretty humbling to find out one has been preaching 'straw'.

 

[ClementofA]

Unfortunately the word of God does not say "the fire is not quenched [until the fuel is consumed]" If that is what God meant that is what He would have said.

Also you might want to check out these

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

v. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained

Nothing here says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A key to Universalism

Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24).

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is
corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."

"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.




"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo
told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

Login

"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the
eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life."
(Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna]
until you have paid up the last cent. The word ―until unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”


Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

 

[Der Alte]

Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:....

The rest of the meaningless repetitious copy/paste omitted. Copy/pasting the same thing over and over and over without specifically addressing anything in the post your are addressing does not prove anything except you can copy/paste.
Where is it written in scripture that God can't create fire that will never go out or worms that will never die? When did God become impotent instead of omnipotent?

Daniel 3:22-23
(22) Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
(23) And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Daniel 3:27
(27) And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
Exodus 3:2
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

 

[Ronald]

Blasted

its interesting how some who profess to be christians follow the bible the KJV and other follow other man made interpretations of other versions. There is a great difference in many version of the things of God. Some groups have altered text to create their own doctrines Like the JW's and their translation of John 1:1 etc. Or to escape the consequence of THE BIBLE (the King James Bible).

Lets put it this way, I and many other true christians are King James Bible christians, if that helps the difference. I believe the Bible and don't need to twist Greek words and escape the clear consequence of text. Yes I am not against understanding the word in the scripture and getting more meaning, but don't change the word. The context always defines the meaning as this very

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Here we see that everlasting punishment is equal in scope and contrary to the opposite eternal life. The same greek word for both everlasting and eternal is used. So if any in the Universalist camp or other camps, try to say that life eternal is forever and ever and never ends, they must also say that everlasting punishment is for ever and ever and never ends. This verse blast them out of the water. Many fancy twist have been made to escape the clear consequence of this verse and many others.

Wow, you blasted me out of the water with that -- didn't see that coming. May you have a happy aion until you pass away and may you also possess aionios life.