Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[Yarddog]

Really?

The truth is and has always been that NO ONE is condemning Oral Tradition. You are using the idea like a hammer to focus on something that does not exist my dear friend.

Who said anything about anyone condemning Oral Tradition? Keep your head in the program.
I wrote in response to your remarks about the Rosary, "In the same place where it says that something has to be in the Bible for it to be believed."

You replied, "Actually what it says is that a Bible doctrine MUSR BE in the Bible to be a Bible doctrine."

Which was a poor response to what I had written, but your reply is totally false since scripture does not say that.

I want to take this opportunity to show you and other Catholic believers something that I am sure you have never considered. I am also sure that it will not make any difference to you but it is none the less real facts.

LOL, it is hilarious to read what people ignorant of Catholicism think about Catholics.

The word tradition occurs only 14 times in the whole New Testament. It shows up in the Old Testament not once. We find 8 references are from Jesus himself, all of which are derogatory of traditions. Not once does he insinuate they are useful or scriptural.

14, hmmm, you are using the NKJV. OK.

Paul has 5 references, 2 of which are derogatory (Col.2:8; Gal.1:14). Peter also has one reference also derogatory 1 Pt.1:18. (the aimless conduct received by the tradition of the fathers).

Let me see, you think that you can prove that "traditions" are bad because 11 of the 14 times that the NKJV translates a Greek or Hebrew word as tradition(s), that is used in a derogatory manner? LOL How about the 3 out of 5 times Paul uses the term to refer to the traditions which he or another Apostle has passed on to them "orally"?

1 Cor. 11:2
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

Yep, there is a difference between the traditions of the Jews and the traditions of the Apostles, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For Peter to be called the first Pope and does not uphold this practice does not help your position.

ROTHFLMHO!!! Talk about pie in your face!!! You get on Catholics about not using scripture and your use blows up in your face. Yes Peter, considered to be the first bishop of the Church passed down the Sacred Traditions of Jesus Christ to all of the churches he established, mostly Orally but also some written.

Catholics “Sacred Tradition” becomes invalid if in any point it contradicts the Bible. Catholic teachings of purgatory, penance, indulgences, Mass, praying the rosary, praying to saints and Mary, wearing scapulars, are not found in the Scripture and they contradict scriptures teachings.

Wrong.

Any verses found to validate these by Catholics are always subject to being redefined or pulled from its actual context.

Says the traditions of the men who taught these things.

The Catholic Church has used their Traditions to make them equal to the Word of God as found in the written Scriptures AND right there is the rub!!!.

The Word of God according to scripture is Jesus Christ. When Jesus taught the Apostles the Gospel they went out teaching believers what to do to worship As Christians. Jesus promised the Church that when they gathered in his name that he would be there and gave them the Holy Spirit to guide them in truth. Whatever God's Holy Spirit reveals to the Church, is truth. The unbelief of new Churches does not change that.

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Actually Catholic doctrines can be defended using Scripture as well as showing that the early Church believed it. I can prove Purgatory , indulgences,the Mass , praying the rosary,praying to saints, mary,wearing scapulars are found in scripture. In sacred Tradition is actually how the early Catholic Bishops interpreted scripture form the early Church until today . But I must also admit that oral tradition ( which was also written down ) documented by the early Bishops was looked on as equal to scripture. These oral traditions can be supported by scripture to a certain extent .

Yes the Bible condemns the traditions of men . Those include men who started Protestant churches and other sects ( who I am willing to honor as christians ) These groups are the ones who also have traditions of men . When each new Protestant group , founded by men, multiplies by division. It is usually because they don't agree with their churches interpret scripture . so they start a new church with different doctrines . Martin Luther said " I tried to get ride of one pope now I created 10 ."

The Catholic Church and the early Church shared the same doctrine over 2000 years . In the early Church there were Councils that dealt with heresies ( which even Protestants would agree were heresies ) So they would together make written statements to define and clarify the falseness and truth relating to the heresies . Doctrine has always been clarified as crisis arose . You will find in the early Church and today's Catholic Church a consistency of doctrine . ( read the Early Church Fathers ).It is like the Bible is the Catholic Church's constitution, the magisterium is (Bishops and Pope and Councils) the supreme court ( which interprets scripture).The early church set the precedent . Your Churches can not trace some of your beliefs to these early Christians writers and therefore have no precedent for some of your doctrine .

I will give you a example how some Evangelicals make up doctrine which is not supported . The rapture is an example . Not one early Christian or Protestant reformer believe in the rapture . It was invented by a english pastor John Darby in the 1830s. The word rapture is not used in the bible .However there was some debate on the millennium but most Bishops believe we were currently in the period of Christ kingdom. Apart from that we don't hear anything about the rapture until John Darby . That's were the rapture tradition started . A 'tradition of man.'

In protestant Churches ,Pentecostal,Evangelical, 7 Day Adventists.............. ... you will find conflicting doctrine . Each group claims that the rely on sola Scriptura . Each claims that their interpretation is the only correct one and what happens is someone disagree starts a new church . AND that's the rub . Each church interprets scripture and its meaning . If sola scriptura really worked there would be only one Protestant church with same interpretation and doctrine . There are now 55000 different Christian denominations that contradict each other . There is still only one church of Rome and we can factually trace our Church and teachings to the beginning . I can show that as well .

I suggest I will start with the Mass and show you where that is in scripture and I will include the first Christians in the first 300 years believed . I can only take on one subject at a time, so someone throw out your understand of the mass. I will try and defend it .

Marry Christmas By the way the actual word is Christs Mass

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Who said anything about anyone condemning Oral Tradition? Keep your head in the program.
I wrote in response to your remarks about the Rosary, "In the same place where it says that something has to be in the Bible for it to be believed."

You replied, "Actually what it says is that a Bible doctrine MUSR BE in the Bible to be a Bible doctrine."

Which was a poor response to what I had written, but your reply is totally false since scripture does not say that.

LOL, it is hilarious to read what people ignorant of Catholicism think about Catholics.

14, hmmm, you are using the NKJV. OK.

Let me see, you think that you can prove that "traditions" are bad because 11 of the 14 times that the NKJV translates a Greek or Hebrew word as tradition(s), that is used in a derogatory manner? LOL How about the 3 out of 5 times Paul uses the term to refer to the traditions which he or another Apostle has passed on to them "orally"?

1 Cor. 11:2
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

Yep, there is a difference between the traditions of the Jews and the traditions of the Apostles, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

ROTHFLMHO!!! Talk about pie in your face!!! You get on Catholics about not using scripture and your use blows up in your face. Yes Peter, considered to be the first bishop of the Church passed down the Sacred Traditions of Jesus Christ to all of the churches he established, mostly Orally but also some written.

Wrong.

Says the traditions of the men who taught these things.


The Word of God according to scripture is Jesus Christ. When Jesus taught the Apostles the Gospel they went out teaching believers what to do to worship As Christians. Jesus promised the Church that when they gathered in his name that he would be there and gave them the Holy Spirit to guide them in truth. Whatever God's Holy Spirit reveals to the Church, is truth. The unbelief of new Churches does not change that.

Hay bother good work .

 

[Albion]

Actually Catholic doctrines can be defended using Scripture as well as showing that the early Church believed it. I can prove Purgatory , indulgences,the Mass , praying the rosary,praying to saints, mary,wearing scapulars are found in scripture.

SOME OF THEM have some sketchy basis. Others have none.

Rosaries, scapulars, and the like are not doctrines, so they aren't part of the issue. In addition, they made their appearance long after the close of the "early church."

As for Purgatory, there are only the most superficial references to something that might--or might not--be like a Purgatory that it's ridiculous to think Scripture proves it. A singe word here or there, mainly.

Indulgences are based mainly on the supposition that the denomination Christ is supposed to have founded was given unlimited rights to create doctrine on its own.

And other dogmas, such as the Assumption of Mary, have absolutely no basis in Scripture whatsoever, but are simply a formalization of a popular legend.

 

[Tree of Life]

Actually, there is no place in scripture which hints that it must be in scripture for it to be truth about God to be believed. Much of the Gospel wasn't even written down but was oral tradition. All you are touting is oral tradition which arose over the past few hundred years.

What are our sources of Revelation about God, then? And how do we know that these sources are accurate?

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Ok we will start with Purgatory .We know the word Trinity is not used in the Bible yet most Christians believe in the doctrine as defined in the early Councils . Where is purgatory in the Bible . it is in 1 Cor 3:10-15 .'"according to the commission of God given to me, like a skilled builder i laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. for no other foundation can any one lay then that which is laid,which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold , silver, precious stones ,wood , hay ,stubble-each mans work will become manifest;for that Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives he will receive a reward.If any man's work is burnt up he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

This fire is what we call purgatory . Each Christian will experience this at the Day on the day of their death weather they believe it or not .

Early Christian Bishops confirm this Tertullian ad 211 " we offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday.... ( OT Jews to this day pray for there dead as Jesus would have participated each year as it was Jewish practice ) St Augustine 419 ad " temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only , by some after death by some both hear and hear after....." . St Augustine 419 " that there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible and can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden weather some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater good or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire."I can quote many early Church Fathers ( just Google them)

Scripture makes it clear "nothing unclean shall enter it."Rev 21:27 . We are purified by this fire . Jesus said " for everyone will be salted with fire" mark 9:49. In Isaiah 6:1-7 we see a glimpse of how a sinful man is purified by fire . We see this process of purification before man enters heaven . " He will be saved (future tense),but only passing though fire". in Hebrews 12:22-23 says that as one approaches Gods presence in heaven he encounters angels as well as the "spirits of just men made perfect".

Just as the Church had the authority to define the Trinity doctrines using scripture it also has the the authority to define these scriptures relating to the "fire" and its meaning . The early Church believed this until today .

I will deal with the volley of issues taken at me, one at a time. Off to family Christmas gathering God bless .

 

[Yarddog]

What are our sources of Revelation about God, then? And how do we know that these sources are accurate?

Well, what are you referring to by the term "our"?

For me it is God's Holy Spirit. We cannot know God without the HS revealing it to us.

 

[Albion]

Ok we will start with Purgatory .We know the word Trinity is not used in the Bible yet most Christians believe in the doctrine as defined in the early Councils . Where is purgatory in the Bible . it is in 1 Cor 3:10-15 .'"according to the commission of God given to me, like a skilled builder i laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. for no other foundation can any one lay then that which is laid,which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold , silver, precious stones ,wood , hay ,stubble-each mans work will become manifest;for that Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives he will receive a reward.If any man's work is burnt up he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

I covered this when I said that some of these doctrines have just the slightest of Biblical support at best, and that it's often one word. In this case, it's "fire" and there's little else that can be said with certainty to refer to Purgatory. Remember that it's not the term (Purgatory) that is at issue here but the idea; and "fire" or "burned up" does not define Purgatory, not in the least. In addition, they whole passage is usually understood in a non-literal sense. It's an analogy.

What it is, who goes there, why that is, how long, etc. etc. is required for anything like a confirmation (or evidence) of Purgatory...and that's all lacking. What you are doing with this verse is speculating in the way that believers in Universalism or Reincarnation do when they try to make a few sketchy and imprecise references in Scripture "prove" their theories.

 

[Arsenios]

(In the Bible...)Where are the words........."PRAY THE ROSARY".

Scripture records Christ's holy words:
Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
Where oh where in the Bible is there a list of
"all things whatsoever I have commanded you"
???

Sometimes it is fun to play in the sand-box!
Granted, it is hard to play without getting dirty...
Mind you!

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

Scripture records Christ's holy words:
Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
Where oh where in the Bible is there a list of
"all things whatsoever I have commanded you"
???

Sometimes it is fun to play in the sand-box!
Granted, it is hard to play without getting dirty...
Mind you!

Arsenios

The fact is that is pretty easy.

Matthew 22:36-40............
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Major1]

I wouldn't play the averages. I hope you wouldn't either. There is a real possibility that few are in the end going to be saved. I follow my Lord and trust in his mercy with an appropriate amount of fear and trembling. Many just think they have it made in the shade with God.

The written Scriptures answer your point.

Matthew 7:13–14.........

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

[Arsenios]

The fact is that is pretty easy.

Matthew 22:36-40............
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Thank-you, Major...

In your answer Christ is referring to Old Testament events, the Law and the Prophets...
But this commandment is to Christ's Apostles whom He had discipled, to in turn disciple all the Ethnoi, teaching them to carefully observe (eg exactly obey) ALL that He had commanded them...

Do you think that they did so?
And if yes, what results do we find?
And are they consistent?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The written Scriptures answer your point.

Matthew 7:13–14.........

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Do you love afflictions and sufferings and heartaches in your quest for God?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

and those who find it are few.

Are you a Marine?

Arsenios

 

[Antig]

I covered this when I said that some of these doctrines have just the slightest of Biblical support at best, and that it's often one word. In this case, it's "fire" and there's little else that can be said with certainty to refer to Purgatory. Remember that it's not the term (Purgatory) that is at issue here but the idea; and "fire" or "burned up" does not define Purgatory, not in the least. In addition, they whole passage is usually understood in a non-literal sense. It's an analogy.

What it is, who goes there, why that is, how long, etc. etc. is required for anything like a confirmation (or evidence) of Purgatory...and that's all lacking. What you are doing with this verse is speculating in the way that believers in Universalism or Reincarnation do when they try to make a few sketchy and imprecise references in Scripture "prove" their theories.

Catholics believe what is written in scripture relating to purgatory. Non Catholic don't. It's as simple as that.

 

[Tree of Life]

Well, what are you referring to by the term "our"?

Humanity in general.

For me it is God's Holy Spirit. We cannot know God without the HS revealing it to us.

I would agree. What would you say are the primary ways that the Holy Spirit communicates to people?

 

[Yarddog]

What would you say are the primary ways that the Holy Spirit communicates to people?

I've experienced visions, prophesy, the spoken word, silent word, removal of the veil, I've had anxiety when I was doing something God didn't want me to do, etc...

 

[Albion]

Catholics believe what is written in scripture relating to purgatory. Non Catholic don't. It's as simple as that.

I think what you really mean is that you believe what you have been told to believe is written in the Bible relating to purgatory.

 

[Antig]

I think what you really mean is that you believe what you have been told to believe is written in the Bible relating to purgatory.

Scriptural evidence for purgatory has been put down for all in this thread. I believe it. You don't. That's ok with me.

 

[Albion]

Scriptural evidence for purgatory has been put down for all in this thread. I believe it. You don't. That's ok with me.

If you think so, you can surely point to it. Remember that Purgatory is a state in the afterlife to which SAVED people will be sent for awhile in order to suffer or be purged of the consequences of Mortal sins they've committed but been forgiven of or unforgiven Venial sins--which means that all of us will experience Purgatory unless we are among the damned who are headed to Hell. Souls in Purgatory can have their stay shortened by the prayers of the living, Masses, or Indulgences which draw from the "Treasury of Merit" in order to apply surplus goodness from the great saints to the Poor Souls in Purgatory.

If all that was verified by some Scripture and cited on this thread, I must have missed it. But if it was not verified by Scripture, there was, in fact, no "Scriptural evidence for purgatory...put down for all in this thread."