how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Jesus didn' t speak fabels or about made up places.

and are you a universalist

So. I am a PROUD universalist it sure is better believing that Jesus is a monster desiring to torture billions of people he never called.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well they did here. So are you the rule maker when it comes to how Jesus does thing. Again no rebuttal. This amazing parable is full of Old Testament types that a spiritual man would understand and especially the Jews were his audience would know. Sorry to deep its to deep for you. Babes drink milk and will choke on a spiritual steak. You need spiritual teeth to chew on it not religious teeth

I have been a christian for almost 30 years and the spiritual life in Christ and His light is the walk of all true saints. You try to escape God's holiness and wrath against sin by twisting scriptures and hiding behind a made up spiritual direction you claim.

When a man dies there is no more chance to be saved. No time in hell can appease for God's offended Holiness and God's wrath is on all those who believe not. If a man dies without Christ and without salvation in Christ through the gospel. He cannot be saved after death. And God's wrath will be on him forever. There is no other way to escape God's wrath. God will always be angry with the wicked.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Jesus spoke parable to the "multitudes" in the story of Lazarus he was not speaking to a large multitude.

Is this suppose to mean something. You do not believe it is a parable? Yes the parable was speaking to the Jews (it was a message to the Jews in a parable) I am sure there was a large multitude? Who cares is this another rule you made up?

 

[LoveofTruth]

So. I am a PROUD universalist it sure is better believing that Jesus is a monster desiring to torture billions of people he never called.

Pride goeth before destruction

by your own words you are in danger

And jesus does not desire to torture any. God is not willing that any should perish....God calls all men everywhere

 

[Der Alte]

CONCLUSION
Gehenna as a place of final punishment was a clear rabbinic teaching before Christ was ever born. The Midrash, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, and apocryphal literature refer to Gehenna hundreds of times. The Midrash alone refers to Gehenna over seventy-five times.

I assume you are aware that those writings are not inspired. So what is of primary importance is what Christ & the Scriptures teach. Christ warned against the false teachings of the Pharisees & Sadducees. "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

I'll remember this every time you quote Philo, Origen, Augustine etc. They are not inspired either.

Additionally, there is ancient Jewish literature that speaks of many who go to Gehenna & then later come out of it. It also speaks of Gehenna being destroyed. These statements are opposed to the notion of it being a place of endless torments. For more on this subject, please refer to the debate between Der Alter & William Tanksley Jr in this thread:

Irrelevant! I mentioned that at the beginning of my post. The fact that there were other views does not negate the fact that there was a significant enough number who believed in hell that the belief in hell was mentioned in the Talmud, Jewish Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Judaica.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I have been a christian for almost 30 years and the spiritual life in Christ and His light is the walk of all true saints. You try to escape God's holiness and wrath against sin by twisting scriptures and hiding behind a made up spiritual direction you claim.

When a man dies there is no more chance to be saved. No time in hell can appease for God's offended Holiness and God's wrath is on all those who believe not. If a man dies without Christ and without salvation in Christ through the gospel. He cannot be saved after death. And God's wrath will be on him forever. There is no other way to escape God's wrath. God will always be angry with the wicked.

Yes God will punish/prune the wicked agely. God is a God of love not a monster. Jesus blood is far greater than any sin of Adam. You only know the letter that killeth if you believe this and you are killing God's Word with you anger and wrath. This is closer to what Islam believes than who Jesus is.
Did not Jesus preach to the prisoners during the time of Noah. They were dead people.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I'll remember this every time you quote Philo, Origen, Augustine etc. They are not inspired either.

Irrelevant! I mentioned that at the beginning of my post. The fact that there were other views does not negate the fact that there was a significant enough number who believed in hell that the belief in hell was mentioned in the Talmud, Jewish Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Judaica.

Believe what you want.

 

[Der Alte]

Is this suppose to mean something. You do not believe it is a parable? Yes the parable was speaking to the Jews (it was a message to the Jews in a parable) I am sure there was a large multitude? Who cares is this another rule you made up?

Every early church father who mentioned the story of the rich man and Lazarus considered it factual. They were native Greek speakers. Do you really believe they got it wrong but someone 2000 years later who doesn't know Greek somehow got it right?

• Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Book II [pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John the apostle]
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
• Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV.
Chap II 3. ...And again, the Lord Himself exhibits Abraham as having said to the rich man, with reference to all those who were still alive: “If they do not obey Moses and the prophets, neither, if any one were to rise from the dead and go to them, will they believe him.” (Luk_16:31)
4. Now, He has not merely related to us a story respecting a poor man and a rich one; but He has taught us, in the first place, that no one should lead a luxurious life, nor, living in worldly pleasures and perpetual feastings, should be the slave of his lusts, and forget God. “For there was,” He says, “a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and delighted himself with splendid feasts.” (Luk_6:19) Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken by Esaias: “They drink wine with [the accompaniment of] harps, and tablets, and psalteries, and flutes; but they regard not the works of God, neither do they consider the work of His hands.” (Isa_5:12)
• Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian On Idolatry
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, (attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.
• Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor “
There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Archelaus [A.D. 277.] The Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes.
41. There was a certain rich man, (Luk_16:19, etc.) who lived after the manner of the Gentiles, and passed his time in great luxury every day; and there was also another man, a poor man, who was his neighbour, and who was unable to procure even his daily bread. It happened that both these men departed this life, that they both descended into the grave,333 and that the poor man was conveyed into the place of rest, and so forth, as is known to you. But, furthermore, that rich man had also five brothers, living as he too had lived, and disturbed by no doubt as to lessons which they had learned at home from such a master. The rich man then entreated that these should be instructed in the superior doctrine together and at once.334 But Abraham, knowing that they still stood in need of the paedagogue, said to him: “They have Moses and the prophets.” For if they received not these, so as to have their course directed by him, i.e., Moses, as by a paedagogue, they would not be capable of accepting the doctrine of the superior master.
• Methodius [A.D. 260-312.] From the Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.
XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection, these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: “I have five brethren; . . . lest they also ome into this place of torment,” (Luk_16:28) send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things hich are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the “tongue,” and the “finger,” and “Abraham’s bosom,” and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and earthly body.
But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abraham’s bosom, before the appearing of the Saviour, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Pride goeth before destruction

by your own words you are in danger

And jesus does not desire to torture any. God is not willing that any should perish....God calls all men everywhere

HOGWASH... You quote verse like this and in the same breath believe the worse. God have mercy on your soul for this doctrine of eternal torture you preach

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Every early church father who mentioned the story of the rich man and Lazarus considered it factual. They were native Greek speakers. Do you really believe they got it wrong but someone 2000 years later who doesn't know Greek somehow got it right?

• Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Book II [pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John the apostle]
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
• Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV.
Chap II 3. ...And again, the Lord Himself exhibits Abraham as having said to the rich man, with reference to all those who were still alive: “If they do not obey Moses and the prophets, neither, if any one were to rise from the dead and go to them, will they believe him.” (Luk_16:31)
4. Now, He has not merely related to us a story respecting a poor man and a rich one; but He has taught us, in the first place, that no one should lead a luxurious life, nor, living in worldly pleasures and perpetual feastings, should be the slave of his lusts, and forget God. “For there was,” He says, “a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and delighted himself with splendid feasts.” (Luk_6:19) Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken by Esaias: “They drink wine with [the accompaniment of] harps, and tablets, and psalteries, and flutes; but they regard not the works of God, neither do they consider the work of His hands.” (Isa_5:12)
• Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian On Idolatry
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, (attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.
• Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor “
There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Archelaus [A.D. 277.] The Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes.
41. There was a certain rich man, (Luk_16:19, etc.) who lived after the manner of the Gentiles, and passed his time in great luxury every day; and there was also another man, a poor man, who was his neighbour, and who was unable to procure even his daily bread. It happened that both these men departed this life, that they both descended into the grave,333 and that the poor man was conveyed into the place of rest, and so forth, as is known to you. But, furthermore, that rich man had also five brothers, living as he too had lived, and disturbed by no doubt as to lessons which they had learned at home from such a master. The rich man then entreated that these should be instructed in the superior doctrine together and at once.334 But Abraham, knowing that they still stood in need of the paedagogue, said to him: “They have Moses and the prophets.” For if they received not these, so as to have their course directed by him, i.e., Moses, as by a paedagogue, they would not be capable of accepting the doctrine of the superior master.
• Methodius [A.D. 260-312.] From the Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.
XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection, these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: “I have five brethren; . . . lest they also ome into this place of torment,” (Luk_16:28) send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things hich are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the “tongue,” and the “finger,” and “Abraham’s bosom,” and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and earthly body.
But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abraham’s bosom, before the appearing of the Saviour, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.
Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

Believe what you want.

 

[LoveofTruth]

HOGWASH... You quote verse like this and in the same breath believe the worse. God have mercy on your soul for this doctrine of eternal torture you preach

do you believe that after death a hater of God has another chance to be saved? If so you preach another gospel

if not then they will be damnned forever . There is no way to escape God's wrath against sin but through Jesus.

Like there is no way to avoid burning up by the heat of the Sun, unless you are new creature protected by the Suns rays

 

[Ronald]

you are misrepresenting what I said...hell is torment, I said that, depending on the definition we can even say hell is torture as in trying to eat the meal she made was pure torture...but!!!!! that does NOT mean that God is torturing anyone. Hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment as such God is NOT a torturer, He is a judge who upholds the law. Absolutely NOT...that is a misconstruction of what I said and that should be obvious given the correction I just offered. Please do NOT reinvent what I said to suit your bias. Actually I do NOT believe there are enough words to describe how bad hell is...see, you are trying to lessen what I said he hell is by making this false claim about what I said. It all boils down to our understanding who what or who goes to hell and why rather than the horrors of hell. huh??? How does anything in this address what I said...here is a hint for you...I believe that we don't know nearly as much about hell as we think we would or should like to know. What we do know is that it is torment and eternal and that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire. Oh, we also know that hell was not created for man but for the demons. Beyond that we don't know all that much....what we can add to our understanding is the purpose for hell, which again is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it. As such God is NOT the torturer that you are trying to make Him out to be here. He simply "reads the names in the book of life" and based on that hands out the sentence the law requires. You are trying to paint the judge out as being a torturer because he hands out the sentence to the criminal. Forget the law, forget the jury, forget everyone but the judge...since the judge hands out the sentence the law requires he is torturing the criminal, right?! Of course not...which is what I pointed out about God and hell. To point out that the judge hands out the sentence the law requires does not reduce the bad things about jail as you also tried to claim here...so please once again I ask you politely to stop reinventing what I said and if you want to discuss what I said then do so based on what I said not on what you want to reinvent me to have said. see above...and compare it to this passage...Rev. 20:14

You don't even understand my claim. I DONT THINK GOD CREATED AN ETERNAL TORTURE CHAMBER. I BELIEVE THE FIRE IS PHYSICAL AND BOTH BODY AND SOUL ARE DESTROYED QUICKLY.
If you believe Hell is eternal and God isn't torturing anyone in it, whose judgment is it? He created the punishment whatever or wherever it may be. Eternal punishment does not conform to the nature of God presented throughout the Bible. His justice is fair.,I don't care how much you lessen the punishment, nor how severe the crime, an infinite punishment is not a justifiable judgment for a finite life of sin.

 

[Der Alte]

So. I am a PROUD universalist it sure is better believing that Jesus is a monster desiring to torture billions of people he never called.

Do you consider God a monster for when He killed thousands and thousands of people in the flood, old, young, men, women, children, infants? Do you consider God a monster for when He killed hundreds of people with fire, old, young, men, women, children, infants? Do you consider God a monster for when He commanded Israel to go into cities in the promised land and kill all the inhabitants, old, young, men, women, children, infants?

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

do you believe that after death a hater of God has another chance to be saved? If so you preach another gospel

if not then they will be damnned forever . There is no way to escape God's wrath against sin but through Jesus.

Like there is no way to avoid burning up by the heat of the Sun, unless you are new creature protected by the Suns rays

So God is not a spirit and everything thing God does is physical in nature? You only know doom and gloom and are missing the best part of God's Word. There is no good news if billions of God's people are going to be tortured forever and ever with out no mercy. God is not calling the whole world now I am sure you do not see this because all you know is condemnation, wrath and anger. Satan wins in your way of believe and God is totally helpless to stop him. You have no clue of God's love, grace and mercy because you are so one sided the negative side.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Do you consider God a monster for when He killed thousands and thousands of people in the flood, old, young, men, women, children, infants? Do you consider God a monster for when He killed hundreds of people with fire, old, young, men, women, children, infants? Do you consider God a monster for when He commanded Israel to go into cities in the promised land and kill all the inhabitants, old, young, men, women, children, infants?

God does not look at death as we do we are physical mortal. Death is as much apart of His plan as redemption. What is God really doing and why sin and death is a better thing to understand The monster God is the one who is sending billions to hell forever and ever with no mercy. That's not death. That just plain SICK.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You don't even understand my claim. I DONT THINK GOD CREATED AN ETERNAL TORTURE CHAMBER. I BELIEVE THE FIRE IS PHYSICAL AND BOTH BODY AND SOUL ARE DESTROYED QUICKLY.
If you believe Hell is eternal and God isn't torturing anyone in it, whose judgment is it? He created the punishment whatever or wherever it may be. Eternal punishment does not conform to the nature of God presented throughout the Bible. His justice is fair.,I don't care how much you lessen the punishment, nor how severe the crime, an infinite punishment is not a justifiable judgment for a finite life of sin.

Gods nature revealed in the Bible is Holy, pure, Love, justice, compassion . Some might say how does God equate His holiness and wrath against sin and justice, with His love compassion and mercy.

The way he showed us all is in the cross of Jesus and his resurrection.

It is not God that did not provide a way to be free and have eternal life. It is men who deny him and reject His mercy. They cannot come to him any other way. Only through Jesus Christ. Jesus himself, said no an comes to the father but by him.

God does not just ignore his justice and wrath against sin. His holiness is pure and He is a consuming fire in His nature. But His love reaches out for men to come. Yet he will not deny who He is and that being the case all sinners who do not come to Him through Christ will be damned forever. To say no they won't because that would make God a horrible being and not loving. Is gross ignorance and an attack upon the Holy God of the Bible.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

You don't even understand my claim. I DONT THINK GOD CREATED AN ETERNAL TORTURE CHAMBER. I BELIEVE THE FIRE IS PHYSICAL AND BOTH BODY AND SOUL ARE DESTROYED QUICKLY.
If you believe Hell is eternal and God isn't torturing anyone in it, whose judgment is it? He created the punishment whatever or wherever it may be. Eternal punishment does not conform to the nature of God presented throughout the Bible. His justice is fair.,I don't care how much you lessen the punishment, nor how severe the crime, an infinite punishment is not a justifiable judgment for a finite life of sin.

Amen. The soul is what needs salvation the body turns to dust. But our spirits return to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Gods nature revealed in the Bible is Holy, pure, Love, justice, compassion . Some might say how does God equate His holiness and wrath against sin and justice, with His love compassion and mercy.

The way he showed us all is in the cross of Jesus and his resurrection.

It is not God that did not provide a way to be free and have eternal life. It is men who deny him and reject His mercy. They cannot come to him any other way. Only through Jesus Christ. Jesus himself, said no an comes to the father but by him.

God does not just ignore his justice and wrath against sin. His holiness is pure and He is a consuming fire in His nature. But His love reaches out for men to come. Yet he will not deny who He is and that being the case all sinners who do not come to Him through Christ will be damned forever. To say no they won't because that would make God a horrible being and not loving. Is gross ignorance and an attack upon the Holy God of the Bible.

That is HOGWASH when it comes to man reaching out to God. If God does not call you you have no power as a physical carnal man to come. Carnal man is dead. Dead to the realm of God, death to hearing God and dead to seeing the realm of God which is spirit because he is carnal.When Adam died we all died spiritually. Adam lived 930 years and died physically but the moment of the sin he died to the realm of God. As Eph 2 puts it we died in trustpasses and sin.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.
1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God choice. By the way Jesus was lifted up at Calvary.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That is HOGWASH when it comes to man reaching out to God. If God does not call you you have no power as a physical carnal man to come. Carnal man is dead. Dead to the realm of God, death to hearing God and dead to seeing the realm of God which is spirit because he is carnal.When Adam died we all died spiritually. Adam lived 930 years and died physically but the moment of the sin he died to the realm of God. As Eph 2 puts it we died in trustpasses and sin.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.
1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God choice. By the way Jesus was lifted up at Calvary.

The lake of fire was created for the devil and His angels. Obviously they are real beings and will suffer also

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

The lake of fire was created for the devil and His angels. Obviously they are real beings and will suffer also

The Lake of Fire or Divine purging is spiritual. All of God's people will experience God's Holy spiritual fire now or later. Spiritual is not real? I really do not care what happens to Satan and his messengers they will end up in Tartarus not the Lake of Divine purging.