how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Ronald]

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[Ronald]

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[Der Alte]

That you would start out an argument implying MY LIBRARY IS BIGGER THAN YOURS, is kind of comical.

Nonsense I did no such thing. I merely informed you that I have the two major Greek and Hebrew lexicons, BDB and BAGD. I don't know of any credible lexicons which surpass them.

I've written a book called, HELL ... IF I KNOW and devoted two chapters in it on the nature of Hell. This doesn't make me right, it just means that I have done some exhaustive research and prayer in my quest for understanding the subject. I use 570 of the most powerful scriptures from seven versions of the Bible.
I don't have a PhD but I can tell you that PhD's have praised my work.

Are you RDB? I've read the intro I don't need to read any further.

We are all sinners aren't we?
We get an idea of what sin is from the Ten Commandments. What sin are you referring to, that my view is different then yours? I didn't claim my understanding was absolute, I don't really think the jury is out on the subject. And btw, the Jews in the OT had a very vague understanding of the afterlife - Jesus brought more clarity to everything. But after careful deliberation, I am comfortable with this view. I am not misleading others away from their belief in eternal hell if they so want to possess it.
But I really don't care to wrestle with you over it because it is a traditionally held belief in the Church and I accept their view, it's just not mine. And I do not believe it to be a sin to hold a different view, especially when I address all the scriptures and key words that support it either way. I believe Martin Luther had problems with the concept of "Eternal Hell" but Calvin steered him away from it, he probably thought that was too much and too risky to nail that along with his 95 Thesis.

If you want to look at sin, look in mirror first and take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the speck in someone else's.
Good Day

First take your own advice amigo! I have not pointed any fingers and don't intend to. I strive to only address the topic.

 

[Ronald]

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[Ronald]

... it is eternal torment not torture-God is not torturing anyone... You are talking about the hell fire and brimstone crowd of which I am not and neither is scripture.

Wow, if the imagery and concept of eternal Hell, being thrown into fire and consumed forever is not torture, then no one has ever been tortured on earth. Torture then, doesn't have a meaning. You are implying that if someone on earth could be tortured, Hell would be a lesser punishment. Also many who are tortured and/or in pain or starving would then prefer the less severe existence of torment in Hell. Hell would not be a severe detourant but an alternative and relief from some earthly life conditions.
You are trying to lessen the severity, make it sound not so bad - "Oh, its not really torture, just torment_ forever."
This is human nature, to change the concept of eternal Hell. You don't like it, so you lessen the severity - "It's not so bad, God wouldn't torture people ... just torment them forever."
What the heck is the difference?
Hell is severe and it should be a deterrent and btw it's worse than any kind of torture or torment on earth except one, burning to death.
This is why I have also searched the scriptures and reasoned through this concept and have found that the word "eternal" is and must be misinterpreted. You can't burn to death in fire endlessly. You can't be destroyed over and over. If it was an eternal punishment with only torment, then scripture wouldn't include the words destruction or perish and specific instructions and imagery of being thrown into a fire and burned. No, it would just include outer darkness, apart from all that is good, misery, the torment of knowing what you missed out on, etc. So what do you do about the fire, brimstone, destruction and DEATH? By default, to try to grasp it, people are forced to redefine death itself to not mean the end. Oh, so what is it a new life of torment forever? So what scholars have done is assign a symbolic meaning to it all, "It must be a spiritual existence and place and not literally physical fire, but a spiritual fire - the burning torment or something. How could there be fire in outer darkness they postulate - is it dark fire? Fire that really doesn't destroy and a place where the soul is sustained in this torment forever is abstract. See, there's definitely a mystery, and something is just not right with this traditional view, it's not crystal clear.
The only clear understanding available is that it is real fire, it is real Lake of Fire that destroys both body and soul, a real end to existence and not eternal at all.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

The word hell is not even in the original language of the Bible; it is a total mistranslation. The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna have no root or meaning in the word hell. The word hell came from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. You go to the UK today and you can hel your potatoes.

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Ha-des(hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament
Yes there is a Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment.

Jesus was not speaking to the world/pagan people/sinners; he was speaking to the Jews (believers during His time He walked o n this earth); when ever He used this Greek word Gehenna. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Israel had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.
Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

By the way the Lake of Fire is spiritual not literal. God has no need of physical fire He is a spirit.

 

[Ronald]

The word hell is not even in the original language of the Bible; it is a total mistranslation. The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna have no root or meaning in the word hell. The word hell came from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. You go to the UK today and you can hel your potatoes.

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Ha-des(hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament
Yes there is a Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment.

Jesus was not speaking to the world/pagan people/sinners; he was speaking to the Jews (believers during His time He walked o n this earth); when ever He used this Greek word Gehenna. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Israel had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.
Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

By the way the Lake of Fire is spiritual not literal. God has no need of physical fire He is a spirit.

Tartarus is the abyss, bottomless pit, a compartment of Hades but separated from lost souls. It is not Hell. Hell is the Lake of Fire.

Gehenna was located south of Jerusalem. It was a deep ravine. It is where the Canaanites used to sacrifice and burn humans to Molech. Later it was used for dead or diseased animals and became a perpetually burning garbage dump, which gave the Jews an image of Hell. It is mistranslated as Hell in some Bible versions. It was often used to symbolize Jewish Hell, a place where the wicked go after death. Some Jews believed in a place of temporary purification , like Purgatory. This would be in the realm of Sheol. It is more like a dark dungeon in the underworld.

The wicked would suffer in the fires of Gehenna. Catholics also believe in Purgatory, which is a place for those under Grace to get purification of minor (venial) sins in preparation for a later ascension to heaven. The Catholic Bible has additional books which speak of this place.

Nowhere in our Protestant Bible is there any mention of souls in Hades having a second chance or redemption, nor does it mention anything about Purgatory. After one is saved, we are under Grace and not the Law, sin in our life is dead and has no power over us. You are either saved or not saved! There is nothing more that can be done to save you after you die. Nothing can purify you any more than what Jesus did on the cross and what the Holy spirit does through the process of sanctification while you are living. In a sense, He purges our sins throughout our lives and refines us, but not after we die. Jesus did the work, nothing more needs to be done. Even the prayers to saints, Mary or baptisms for the dead can do nothing to save a soul from Hades and ultimately the Lake of Fire. As far as the mechanics of Purgatory, atonement, justification and salvation don't work that way.

The Lake of Fire (Hell) describes the final destination and destruction of the wicked souls. Gehenna of the past is a shadow representation of Hell on earth at the end of time, (at which time the second death occurs), when the first earth is destroyed in a fervent heat. I would like to suggest that Hell is more of an event, a place in time, then a perpetual Lake of Fire. The Bible gives us a clue that this Lake of Fire is viewed by spectators, so it is literal and a physical fire. We see fire in a lava lake and that may be right on the money. Beneath the earth's crust is no doubt molten lava. Theoretically the center of the earth is red hot as well.



A key verse to examine is Deut. 32:22

"For a fire is kindled in My anger,

And burns to the lowest part of Sheol,

And consumes the earth with its yield,

And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains."


In Moses time, he witnessed 250 rebellious men suffer and die when the earth opened up and they were swallowed with fire and they all went down to Sheol.

The ground opened up and swallowed Sodom and Gomorrah, which was located on the northeast side of the Dead Sea. That area smoldered for hundreds of years after these cities were destroyed and as recently as a few hundred years ago, outbursts of fire, smoke and the smell of sulfur were recorded. The Dead Sea is located in the Great Syrian/African Rift Valley. This area was also called The Sea of Sodom, The Sea of Lot, The Devil's Sea AND The Lake of Fire and Smoke (during Christ's time). Historically and geologically, evidence suggests that a huge reservoir of fire and brimstone exists beneath the surface of this great rift area the extends from Syria to Mozambique.
To add to this, Christ was tempted about seven miles northwest of Jericho and northeast of Jerusalem. Jericho is a few miles north of the Dead Sea. The High Priest sent the scapegoat which symbolically was laden with the sins of Israel out into this wilderness once a year (in this area). It is said that this is where demons dwell deep below the surface. East of Galilee, Jesus cast out demons into a herd of pigs who implored Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. Somewhere along this valley could be the entrance into the Abyss /Bottomless Pit that is opened in Rev. 9:1, 2; releasing these demons, smoke and fire.

It is well known that the earth's crust contains caverns, water and molten lava. We can assume that there are deeper caverns and most likely a bottomless pit / abyss that descends deep beneath the crust of the earth. When pressure builds up, fire and brimstone are thrust out of volcanoes. Scientists would explain it one way but Deut. 32:22 above explains it another way.

So when the First Trumpet is blown, 1/3 of the planet is engulfed in fire. My guess would be the Middle East part.

Just some food for thought, Hell on earth is not such a new concept. Besides when the unbelieving dead are resurrected out of Hades, what do they do on earth -- roam around, celebrate? You haven't figured that one out yet? I'm sure that's where all these zombie movies came from. But that is fiction. These people will be resurrected into bodies that they once had but they will notice something not so wonderful, the earth is going through Hell and they are about to receive their judgment and get thrown into the Lake of Fire. Angels witness this event

 

[mkgal1]

About "consuming fire"? Does the Bible ever say (specifically) that it's PEOPLE God is destroying? Or....does it imply--as makes sense to me--that He is destroying sin/evil (the "chaff"....the "contaminants")?


"Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe For our God is a consuming fire.~Hebrews 12:29

"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."~1 Corinthians 3:15

Edited to change "consuming" to "destroying".
....and to add this from Exodus 3:2:

"Then the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire within a bush. As Moses looked, he saw that the bush was on fire but was not consumed."

Still editing to add:

"John the Baptist predicted that Jesus would baptize "with the Holy Spirit and with fire" ( Matt 3:11 ; cf. Luke 3:16 ), a promise that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Then "tongues of fire" rested upon those gathered in the upper room with the result that they "were filled with the Holy Spirit" ( Acts 2:3-4 ). The fire here is a manifestation of God"~Fire Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

 

[Der Alte]

The word hell is not even in the original language of the Bible; it is a total mistranslation. The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna have no root or meaning in the word hell. The word hell came from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. You go to the UK today and you can hel your potatoes.
She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Ha-des(hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament
Yes there is a Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment.
Jesus was not speaking to the world/pagan people/sinners; he was speaking to the Jews (believers during His time He walked o n this earth); when ever He used this Greek word Gehenna. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Israel had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.
Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.
...
By the way the Lake of Fire is spiritual not literal. God has no need of physical fire He is a spirit.

That the word "hell" is not in the original language of the Bible is irrelevant. None of the English words you have written are in the original languages either.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Gehenna is for believers not the loss. Not one of the verses using Gehenna is the loss/sinners ever mentioned. Besides Gehenna is outside the gate of Jerusalem not Babylon or Greece so that is another point it is for believers not the loss. If it was for the loss the symbolism should be Rome or Babylon some other heathen city not the city of God.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

About "consuming fire"? Does the Bible ever say (specifically) that it's PEOPLE God is destroying? Or....does it imply--as makes sense to me--that He is destroying sin/evil (the "chaff"....the "contaminants")?


"Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe For our God is a consuming fire.~Hebrews 12:29

"If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."~1 Corinthians 3:15

Edited to change "consuming" to "destroying".
....and to add this from Exodus 3:2:

"Then the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire within a bush. As Moses looked, he saw that the bush was on fire but was not consumed."

Still editing to add:

"John the Baptist predicted that Jesus would baptize "with the Holy Spirit and with fire" ( Matt 3:11 ; cf. Luke 3:16 ), a promise that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Then "tongues of fire" rested upon those gathered in the upper room with the result that they "were filled with the Holy Spirit" ( Acts 2:3-4 ). The fire here is a manifestation of God"~Fire Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

God's fire is spiritual not literal. Does God need to roast hot dogs what use is physical fire for a God that is spirit.

 

[ClementofA]

That the word "hell" is not in the original language of the Bible is irrelevant. None of the English words you have written are in the original languages either.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Disclaimer: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

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I've been following this thread for a while now. I had a brother pass away a week ago and I wanted to know about this topic further.

I can say that it is a difficult topic in both complexity and meaning.

I ran across this article today and I thought it had some good points. Although I found that several of the biblical passages were not as clear as the article made them to appear.

Faith Defenders - Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna

There were some very good posts in this thread with a lot of biblical support for each position. I guess that means I have to hit the "BOOK" myself! Going to the scriptures with prayer, asking for wisdom through the Holy Spirit is ultimately where my decision will rest. Many of the scriptures posted in this thread will be a springboard for more study. For that I am grateful.

The following is my response to the "conclusion" at the end of that article:

CONCLUSION
Gehenna as a place of final punishment was a clear rabbinic teaching before Christ was ever born. The Midrash, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, and apocryphal literature refer to Gehenna hundreds of times. The Midrash alone refers to Gehenna over seventy-five times.

I assume you are aware that those writings are not inspired. So what is of primary importance is what Christ & the Scriptures teach. Christ warned against the false teachings of the Pharisees & Sadducees. "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

Additionally, there is ancient Jewish literature that speaks of many who go to Gehenna & then later come out of it. It also speaks of Gehenna being destroyed. These statements are opposed to the notion of it being a place of endless torments. For more on this subject, please refer to the debate between Der Alter & William Tanksley Jr in this thread:

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Moreover there are early Christian writings in support of universal reconciliation.

The vivid imagery and striking phraseology found in the intertestamental literature, which described Gehenna as the ultimate place of eternal torment for the wicked, was clearly carried over into the New Testament itself by the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

Similarly to my previous comment, i refer you to the Scriptures:

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus said this to the Pharisees, "I well know that you do not have the Love of God in you..." (Jn. 5:42). So what would they know of a God Who - is - love - & the Saviour of the whole world, not just certain Jews or Pharisees only?

Jesus said re the Pharisees:

"This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

Jesus said the Pharisees' father was Satan the devil, they were children of Hades, and they taught false doctrines and the commandments of men.

The Pharisees had their oral traditions, which were not Scripture. Jesus rebuked them regarding their traditions.

That the ultimate fate of the wicked will be eternal, conscious torment will be further argued in a later chapter, but we have demonstrated in this chapter that Gehenna is the ultimate fate of all impenitent sinners according to rabbinic and New Testament literature.

Scripture says after the wicked are resurrected they will go into the - lake of fire - which is the second death. Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God will be "all in all" (v.28).
Scripture trumps & opposes any "rabbinic...literature" in support of a dogma of endless punishments.

The concept of Universalism, which sees no one going to Gehenna, or Gehenna ultimately being emptied of all sinners, is an ideal which is absolutely foreign to the intertestamental and New Testament literature.

There will certainly be those who go to Gehenna. The questions are (1) whether or not it is to be equated with the lake of fire, or (2) only the millennial kingdom of Christ or (3) the
judgement of the Jews (c. 70 AD), or (4) a combination of the three. And (5) can/will those who go there be saved. BTW, in one Gehenna passage, Jesus says everyone will be salted with fire (Mk.9:43-49).

The idea of annihilationism, in which the wicked cease to exist, may indeed be found in some of the intertestamental literature, particularly those works which were influenced by the Sadducees or Stoics. But enough has been given in this chapter to demonstrate that the majority view, that of the common man in the street, was of an eternal, conscious torment of the wicked in Gehenna.

Was any evidence given of Jewish beliefs at the time of Jesus' mortal life (c. 30 AD). How do we know that the Jews were not divided in their views re the afterlife, including beliefs in
universalism, endless torments & annihilation?

"Of the doctrine of the Pharisees he [Josephus, 37-100 A.D.] says:

" "They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Elsewhere he says that the Essenes, "allot to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing torment (timoria adialeipton), where they suffer a deathless torment" (athanaton timorion)." "

"...He [Philo, 20 B.C.-50 A.D.] uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."

"...Had our Lord intended to indoctrinate the doctrine of the Pharisees, he would have used the terms by which they described it. But his word defining the duration of punishment
was aionian, while their words are aidion, adialeipton, and athanaton. Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion,
eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he used aionion kolasin, an adjective in universal use for limited duration,
and a noun denoting suffering producing improvement."

Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment


For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

 

[LoveofTruth]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending.

'

How would you describe the Sun to your children? Would you say the Sun gives light and good things but it is a consuming fire and very hot. If you fog to close to the Sun you will burn up.

Well do you say the Sun is wrong or a horrible things because it will burn up all who come to close? No

Our God is a consuming fire and absolute Holiness. No sin or evil can come near. Unless we are made new creations in Christ none can approach him or be saved from the fire of His holiness.

God has made the way for all to come to him if they will repent and believe the gospel.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to die for our sins and be buried and rise again from the dead.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

'

How would you describe the Sun to your children? Would you say the Sun gives light and good things but it is a consuming fire and very hot. If you fog to close to the Sun you will burn up.

Well do you say the Sun is wrong or a horrible things because it will burn up all who come to close? No

Our God is a consuming fire and absolute Holiness. No sin or evil can come near. Unless we are made new creations in Christ none can approach him or be saved from the fire of His holiness.

God has made the way for all to come to him if they will repent and believe the gospel.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to die for our sins and be buried and rise again from the dead.

We will all go though God's fire including the loss. Tell me the difference between the cloven tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost and the fire in the lake of Fire?

 

[LoveofTruth]

We will all go though God's fire including the loss. Tell me the difference between the cloven tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost and the fire in the lake of Fire?

it was "like fire" and seemed to be, but not the same

"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them."

also we read of the Holy Spirit defending "like" as dove, but this was not an actual dove.

mysteries

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

it was "like fire" and seemed to be, but not the same

"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them."

also we read of the Holy Spirit defending "like" as dove, but this was not an actual dove.

mysteries

Amen. Its called spiritual symbolism. Its a way God teaches us physical people spiritual revelation. Take the goat in Matthew 25. A goat is a clean animal so the symbolism cannot be the loss. If Jesus used the word pig that would be appropriate but he didn't because he was speaking about goat believers. Jesus knew the goat was a clean animal because he was a Jew and knew the Law of Moses. Do you? Same with the Lake of Divine purging its symbolic and spiritual and written in the most spiritual book ever written. The Book of Revelation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Amen. Its called spiritual symbolism. Its a way God teaches us physical people spiritual revelation. Take the goat in Matthew 25. A goat is a clean animal so the symbolism cannot be the loss. If Jesus used the word pig that would be appropriate but he didn't because he was speaking about goat believers. Jesus knew the goat was a clean animal because he was a Jew and knew the Law of Moses. Do you? Same with the Lake of Divine purging its symbolic and spiritual and written in the most spiritual book ever written. The Book of Revelation.

note that it doesn't say "like a lake of fire"

it is different that saying something is "like" something.

Yes we don't fully understand such words. But it is involved in burning and terror and washing of teeth etc fire never quenched

Jesus also comes in flaming fire taking vengeance.Is that literal fire or not?

 

[Shempster]

The word hell is not even in the original language of the Bible; it is a total mistranslation. The words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna have no root or meaning in the word hell. The word hell came from an Angle Saxon word meaning to bury. You go to the UK today and you can hel your potatoes.

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Ha-des(hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament
Yes there is a Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)
Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment.

Jesus was not speaking to the world/pagan people/sinners; he was speaking to the Jews (believers during His time He walked o n this earth); when ever He used this Greek word Gehenna. The Teutonic pagan word Hell Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature; it is the reaping of what Israel had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.
Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Matthew 5:22

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

By the way the Lake of Fire is spiritual not literal. God has no need of physical fire He is a spirit.

Excellent reply.
Funny you mention the part where you say Jesus is not warning sinners of some sort of terrible place, he was warning the Jews. Look at the letters to the churches in Revelation: he is warning the churches, etc. If you pay close attention you might notice that most all the warnings of potential impending terrors in the bible, they are directed at God's people, not the evil pagans.

You mentioned the valley of Gehinnom and I find it very interesting that not only did God's children burn their babies in the fire, but here God tells them that burning his own children in fire is something that never even entered his mind! So right where YHVH says he would NEVER do that becomes the place where Jesus says he WILL burn his children in fire? I don't think so. (Jer 19:5...and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind)

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Excellent reply.
Funny you mention the part where you say Jesus is not warning sinners of some sort of terrible place, he was warning the Jews. Look at the letters to the churches in Revelation: he is warning the churches, etc. If you pay close attention you might notice that most all the warnings of potential impending terrors in the bible, they are directed at God's people, not the evil pagans.

You mentioned the valley of Gehinnom and I find it very interesting that not only did God's children burn their babies in the fire, but here God tells them that burning his own children in fire is something that never even entered his mind! So right where YHVH says he would NEVER do that becomes the place where Jesus says he WILL burn his children in fire? I don't think so. (Jer 19:5...and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind)

Like I said this is a very spiritual and symbolic. If we look at God's Word and see what it is saying about fire instead of our natural way of do things the light comes on. God's fire purifies not destroys or annihilate.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

note that it doesn't say "like a lake of fire"

it is different that saying something is "like" something.

Yes we don't fully understand such words. But it is involved in burning and terror and washing of teeth etc fire never quenched

Jesus also comes in flaming fire taking vengeance.Is that literal fire or not?

You have a real evil Jesus her. I said like the Lake of fire because I was referring to they both being spiritual fire. You obviously are a religious literal believer not a spiritual man for if you were you would understand God is a spirit and His Word can be as the letter killeth or the spirit quicken or makes alive.

John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.