how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

yeshuaslavejeff

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So God gave to Thomas what would save him, but He's going to deny the same to the atheist?
Faith is a gift and a choice of the will to believe in and trust YHWH the SOVEREIGN CREATOR and to call on Him and/or on Jesus for Salvation, Healing and for help.

The atheist can choose to call on God, or not.
His eternity is in the balance - depending on God's Grace and the atheist's choice.

Same as Thomas.
 
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aiki

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"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

Um, why is this imagined scenario of yours one to which we must answer? It would be an odd parent who interacted with their children as you describe here. There are myriad other ways to have a sensible - and age-appropriate - discussion about God and His judgment of sin.

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

This is to take the place of God and become the arbiter of what is and isn't love. God's love is greater than any human-type love to which you might subscribe. And it is foolish to think that loving a child never requires harming him or her. A child is harmed when they must have their appendix out, or their impacted and rotting wisdom teeth must be removed, or some physical deformity must be surgically corrected. These moments of harm actually evidence the love of the child's parents. So, love and harm are not necessarily mutually-exclusive things.

But why would I say anything like what you do here to my children? It's utterly false. No human parent has ever loved their child more than God loves them.

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.

You're "letting us come to grips with our beliefs"? Well, thanks so much. What would I have done without your letting me do so? I shudder to think (this is not sarcasm - much).

If I properly understand what Scripture teaches about eternal hell and God's holiness and justice, I will have no problem teaching these things to my children. The peculiar scenarios and statements you've conjured up wouldn't figure into any such conversations with them that I will have.

After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

No sarcasm here, either, I suppose? I wouldn't want to sugar-coat the terrible, terrible depths of human wickedness and the holy perfection of God, either.

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

What indeed? I love Him because He first loved me and has in His awesome mercy and grace made a way through Christ for me to know Him as my Heavenly Father. That's what I will be telling my children, not the nonsense you've proposed in your post.

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?"

A better question I think is, "How can He not?" Sinners are punished with eternal hell because that is what their sin deserves. We see just how vile and depraved the sin we love really is by the punishment God renders upon it!

As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying.

If you were listening to those sermons as a lost person, why wouldn't it be? Hell isn't supposed to relax you, you know.

"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

Nope. I believe in it and I am far from catatonic. You realize, don't you, that not every person is just like you?

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."

Well, then, what the Bible clearly teaches just can't be true, then, can it? I mean if you lost weight and became anxious it's obvious that Hell is false.

"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Pffft! You don't get to speak for everybody else. Just because you won't take Hell seriously doesn't mean others can't or won't.
 
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ClementofA

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Scripture is clear:
"Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' [...] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41, 46

It's a reality we have to face. Some people are doomed to eternal fire, and it's because of the decisions they made. God didn't force them to sin, and neither did anyone else. We choose for ourselves to reject God's mercy and embrace sin, and God won't force us to spend eternity with Him when we made it very clear in our lives that we'd rather remain in sin.

I'd welcome your comments to my remarks on that topic:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

And what the early church thought here:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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ClementofA

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Faith is a gift and a choice of the will to believe in and trust YHWH the SOVEREIGN CREATOR and to call on Him and/or on Jesus for Salvation, Healing and for help.

The atheist can choose to call on God, or not.
His eternity is in the balance - depending on God's Grace and the atheist's choice.

Same as Thomas.



"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them..." (Jn.6:44)

“As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.’” (Rom.3:10-12)

For if the miracles that were performed in you had happened in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. (Mt.11:23b)
 
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Anguspure

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We can only know what constitutes death except by using a standard to determine such. We cannot know what death is except from that which is Life, which is God Almighty Himself. God is necessarily the very standard whereby we can determine what constitutes death and life.

The penalty for breaking God’s commands is death, Why? Because God is Life (Ps. 36:9; John 14:6), and sin—the breaking of God’s Law—separates us from God (Is. 59:2). Whoever is separated from God is therefore separated from Life, and whoever is separated from Life is necessarily dead. Once such a transgressor is rendered non-existent, there is no more separation, because true separation is only possible between those persons or objects that actually exist. So where there is no true separation there can literally be no death. Therefore, within the model of Annihilationism, there can be no true lasting death--in any sense--after material death.
Yes, I have considered this and funnily enough Black hole theory has given me a way to think that this might be a possibility. But then I realised that God eventually creates a new heavens and a new earth which points to a complete annihilation of all things that belong to this universe. Space and time itself will be a new creation within which nothing sinful or nothing that comes from the previous universe (apart from the children of God) will exist at all.
 
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Anguspure

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Well the fire is forever.. its written. Is there day and night in heaven? This is a area we need to walk so softly in. Were talking about some ones creation..happens to be a GOD. I am sure all of us here have it wrong.
Where there are 2 Jews there are 3 opinions. I myself am happy to consider 4 of them.
 
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ClementofA

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So then, nothing ? So just avoid the truth, again?

Matthew 12:32

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

This addresses one sin, but how does it address every other sin or what happens to all who die in sin in the afterlife?

The previous verse says:

So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt.12:31

IOW all those who die in sin (blasphemy of the HS excepted) shall be forgiven. So there is afterlife salvation.

For more comments on this passage, see the thread topics:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
 
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SBC

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OP ~

Tell my Children? The Truth.

God made them and God Loves them.

God made us all to live on this earth, with other people, so we could learn how to love.

And God made us so we would die, so we could learn how sad we feel when we can't be with the one we love.

God loves us and is sad if He is not with us and we are not with Him.

So people decide IF they do or do not want to Love God or Be with God.

Some do; Some don't.

The ones that do...go to God in Heaven, when they die on earth...but now live with God in Heaven..and others who live with God.
They will live forever with God.

The ones who don't...also die and leave the earth. They go to hell and won't get to be with God, just like they chose. Now both They and God will be Sad.

God won't be mad at them or make them love Him or make them stay living forever in hell.
As Matter of Fact, God won't make them live forever. They will just stay dead and God will burn their body's. Kind of like when we sometimes burn dead body's. It does not hurt a dead body to burn. They have no life in them so they feel nothing.

It will be sad for them because they will not get to live forever with God.

So what is this TORTURE a person in hell experiences?

The waiting....!!

The same waiting children on earth experience when waiting for their parent to come get them....
While having nothing to do or see..
discomfort...Stink smells...no sunshine...can't leave...oh and then knowing your parent is never coming to get you.

Waiting for an hour, 4 hours? No. hundreds and hundreds of years!

That is their torment and agony and sadness.

Throwing their dead body into a fire pit...?

How are Dead body's feeling anything?

God Bless
SBC
 
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AACJ

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Yes, I have considered this and funnily enough Black hole theory has given me a way to think that this might be a possibility. But then I realised that God eventually creates a new heavens and a new earth which points to a complete annihilation of all things that belong to this universe. Space and time itself will be a new creation within which nothing sinful or nothing that comes from the previous universe (apart from the children of God) will exist at all.
Your dodging the logic and Scripture. Black Hole? Come on. Is that what must be resorted to?

Its over. Annihilationism an CI have been laid in their graves on this thread and will soon by marginalized in the Church. The debate on this thread is won concerning Annihilationism and Conditional immortality. No one has refuted my claims on this thread concerning either one. That only leaves the traditional view and universal salvation.
 
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Balaam

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God's judgement is to let us have our own way.

Genesis 3. Mankind sins then hides from God, but God in his love comes looking for them. When they offer excuses for their disobedience God ejects them from the garden, and sets a guard on the garden gate so that mankind cannot get back into the garden by his own effort. The judgement is that mankind separates himself from God and God lets him have his way.

Exodus 33. God has shown that he wants to be among the people by giving Moses the details of a wonderful tent he wants to live in. But the people have rebelled in Moses' absence and built a golden calf to worship. So God's judgement is to let them have their own way. He does not dwell in a magnificent tent in the middle of the camp but in an ordinary tent outside the camp.

1 Samuel 8. The people desire a king in a rebellion against being led by prophets. Samuel gives them God's warnings, but they rebel and say they want to be like the other nations around them.

2 Samuel 7 David has become King of Israel. He wants to build a temple for God. God, through the prophet Nathan rebukes him, but God's judgement is to allow the temple to be built.

New Testament. God becomes incarnate in Jesus. The people reject him. God's judgement on the people is to let them have their own way. Jesus is executed, but in having their own way God's purpose is fulfilled and the people are judged.

Romans 1. Paul the apostle, shows that God letting people have their own way is God's curse by saying in verse 28: "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do hat ought not to be done."

So a quick tour their of God judging people by letting them have their own way, which is a curse, not a blessing. I could not get it any shorter.

At the last judgement it will be the same, but God will alow people their own way, rejecting him is separation for ever and God does not torment anyone. They have already chosen that.
 
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LynnC

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"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"
Greetings ClementofA,
This part of your statement caught me to answer for you.

It's about teaching choices. It is not about God doing us harm. It is about the harm(or good) that comes to us according to our own choices. That is why God has given His Word to guide us to the good.
'He does not want even a single soul to be lost' ... but He does not control our choices. He gives free will which decides our own fate. One choice leads one direction.... towards Love.... while other choices will lead to downfall.... destruction.... eternal separation from the good....
because good and evil do not mix, as we can see by our existence on this earth... evil must go one way, while the good go another way... to purity.... but purity can not be spoiled with dross.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Peace and blessings to you,
Lynn
 
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Rod Carty

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"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

You used emotionally loaded phrases in your argument. That's fine for expressing your opinion, but you've gone beyond that into using those emotionally loaded phrases as support for your argument. That makes it propaganda, and the fallacy of loaded question.

So let's unpack your emotionally loaded phrases and see where that leaves us. If there is such a place as hell, should we tell our children about it? Why would God make a place like hell?

First, what is the eternal torment? It is separation from God. Jesus showed us a bit of that torment while He was on the cross. While it could rightly be said that God sends sinners there, it is in the same sense that an earthly judge sends criminals to prison. People aren't grabbed at random off the street and sent to prison, they get there because they did some unlawful act. So too with God's law. The earthly judge is in no way responsible for the acts of the criminal which got them sent to prison, and likewise God is not responsible for each person's choice to submit to God and learn to love Him through a relationship with Him - or their choice to rebel.

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

Indeed children need to know that they must make a choice to follow God or not, and the consequences of that choice. Your emotionally loaded question implies, again, that it is God who is harming the people who go to hell, which means there is no choice. If there is choice then the consequences of that choice are on the chooser, not the one who made those choices possible. If there is no choice, no free will, then there can be no love for true love must be a free will choice.

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

I would say it is not love at all, but merely submission. Love is a conscious choice, just as rebellion is. Love comes after submission.

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

It would appear your objection here is that eternity in hell goes too far, that it is not just; not a just punishment for their crime. First, it is God's law, He created it. Complaining to the judge about your sentence is not going to change the judge's mind. Second, God does have the authority, as our creator, to sentence anyone to the punishment He chooses for acts which violate His law.
 
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Ronald

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Please show me any Greek grammar which says "When [aion/aionios] is used to describe God, His domain or our salvation it means a spiritual existence without end. When it is applied to temporal physical things (everything else), then it has a finite meaning?"


First of all, the only place in the Old Testament where the correct usage of “eternity” is used (transliterated – ad)is in Isaiah 57:15. “For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: ‘I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.’” Eternity here means: “continued duration, always or perpetually. It is translated 41 times as ever; twice as everlasting; once as end; once as old; once as evermore; and once as perpetually.” (Strong's Concordance)

In most of these usages, God, His power or our salvation is described. Keep in mind, He inhabits eternity. And btw, technically, eternity goes in both directions with no beginning and no end, therefore only God inhabits eternity and He invites us into His realm. So we enter and move forward. Everything on earth is temporal and even the physical heavens as well. Obviously, Hades, the Lake of Fire did not always exist, therefore it is not eternal, but temporal and so will pass away as all former things will be destroyed. Death, Evil, Sin, Hades will pass away and be destroyed, Satan and his demonic horde as well – temporal.

This Hebrew word, “ad” is translated three different ways in this verse: “He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow; His ways are everlasting.” Hab. 3:6 KJV Are mountains and hills everlasting or perpetual? No. In other versions, eternal is used. Does everlasting mean the same as eternal? Not really, In the English language we understand everlasting and forever to mean eternal, but mountains aren’t eternal. His ways are eternal but mountains will pass away.

Here is another version of that same verse that makes more sense:

“He stood, and shook the earth. He looked, and made the nations tremble. The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal.” Hab. 3:6 WEB So we see variations in the translations.

“Forever” and “ever” are English terms. They are translated from the Hebrew word owlam and the Greek word, aion. They usually mean any period of time: lifetime, generation, epoch, eon, age (past or future) or the world. This Greek word for everlasting originally meant: age-lasting or age-during. Mountains last for an age and the age of the earth is finite.

Aionios would mean many lifetimes, generations or simply ages and ages. Both aion and aionios (or aionion) sometimes mean a period of time pointing forward infinitely. Therefore, these words have variable meanings.

So to answer your question, here are some examples where these words represent God’s domain, our salvation:

“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.” 1 John 5:11 NIV We are in Christ, therefore, in eternity. This of course means that we are currently living in two realms.

“While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.” 2 Cor. 4:18 KJV

“Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.” Rom. 1:25 KJV

“For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory for ever. Amen.” Rom. 11:36 KJV

“According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Eph. 3:11 KJV

“Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” 1 Tim.1:17 KJV

But the Word of the Lord endureth forever …” 1 Peter 1:25 KJV

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” John 3:16 ASV

“He that believeth on the son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 KJV

Other verses: Matt. 6:13; Luke 1:33; John 6:51; Gal. 1:4, 5; Heb.13:8;

1 Peter1:23; 1 John 2:17; Jude 25; Rev. 5:13; Pslam 37:18; Matt. 19:16



Here are some examples of aion, aionios used to mean temporal periods of time:

“Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.”

1 Cor. 10:11 ASV Ages or world is used in most versions since “the ends of eternity” doesn’t make sense.

In Rev. 22:5 this same word is translated as “for ever” which applies to eternal life in the new earth. “that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” Eph. 2:7 ASV

“far above all principality, and authority, and might and lordship, and every name named, not only in this age, but in the coming one;” Eph. 1:21 YLT

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in god, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” Eph. 3:9 KJV

“And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age , nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless.” 1 Cor. 2:6 YLT

“Peter saith unto Him, Thou shalt never (not ever) wash my feet …” John 13:8 ASV

“for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.” Gen. 13:15 NKJV Young’s version says, “to the age”. Have the Jews possessed all that land to this day? No. They had it, they lost it several times and now they only have part of it. “for ages” can be used as well)

In Exodus 12:17, observing the Feast of Unleavened Bread was not an “everlasting” ordinance, used in NKJV. Again, these were temporal feasts celebrated throughout the Jewish generations. It lasted for ages, not eternal.

Ex. 27:20, 21, orders the children of Israel to burn the lamp “always” and then it would be a statute “for ever” does not imply eternal, but temporal. Did the lamp go out, does the statute continue? Just for generations, ages.

One of the key verses to examine is Matt. 25:46. Here we see the translators were cautious using the same word in different ways:

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” KJV Why here and not in other places? They knew the difference between everlasting and eternal. This verse shows the tension between two realms, one spiritual and one temporal. Here variable meanings are expressed but in other versions more accurately: “And these shall go away to punishment age-during , but the righteous into life age-during.” YLT

NIV and NASB use eternal in both phrases.

“And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages.” Weymouth New Testament

Punish comes from kolasis which means cutting off so (cutting off of the ages and eternal life) would give us a better understanding of this verse.

Perish and destroy mean to utterly ruin, consume; demolish; to put an end to; to kill. Perish sometimes means lost or no longer fit for intended us, or marred, but when referring to the death of both body and soul, the first definition is correctly represented.


When God chooses He can place or allow someone or thing thing to be in fire and not be destroyed. See e.g. Exodus 3:2 the burning bush Daniel 3:23 The 3 Hebrew slaves

Really, the burning bush and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego? We have the glory of God’s fire and then a miracle of God’s protection in fire to compare to punishment in the Lake of Fire?

Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence therefore it cannot literally be thrown anywhere. But there is a death which can be thrown into the LofF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.The angels of death and hades will be thrown into the LofF and their power to kill ended.

Is the angel of death God’s angel or is he Satan’s? God sends judgment upon the earth, the four horsemen. It appears to me that these are God’s angels who inflict judgment and blow the trumpets and pour the bowels out. I do not think they will be destroyed or punished. However death itself and Hades (a place) will be destroyed.


How was God glorified when He destroyed all the people on the earth, old, young, men women, children, infants, except for Noah and his family? How was God glorified when the destroyed all the people in Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, old, young, men, women, children, infants? How was God glorified when He commanded Israel to go into Canaan and destroy the cites and everyone in them old, young, men. women, children infants?
Deuteronomy 32:25
(25) The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

Exactly, as He destroyed the earth once, He put an end to those people. It is His prerogative to have them suffer for eons of time in Hades and then destroy them in the Lake of Fire or to just put an end to them within hours. Either way, God is not glorified in these acts of punishment. He is grieved, but He is a God of justice and sin needs to be fairly judged.
 
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Its over. Annihilationism an CI have been laid in their graves on this thread and will soon by marginalized in the Church.
I don't think there's going to be any way to declare a "victory" of one afterlife belief over another. All three have been accepted as there's really no definite way to rule any of them out. IOW....it's not something we can (accurately) get dogmatic over.
 
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Balaam

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Greetings ClementofA,
This part of your statement caught me to answer for you.

<snip>

It's about teaching choices. It is not about God doing us harm. It is about the harm(or good) that comes to us according to our own choices.
Peace and blessings to you,
Lynn
Just 7 minutes after I'd concluded it was down to our choices by plowing through the Old Testament and quoting Paul you come to the same conclusion quoting Jesus.

Do you think we're on to something? :)
 
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Copperhead

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The OP's question is a softball. The "torture" will be inflicted upon themselves. Being eternally without any hope, and yet, it could have all been avoided by a simple acceptance of the sacrifice of Yeshua to save them. Now they get to spend a eternity in torment over how things could have been and never will be. No hope. No freedom. No love. Just an eternity of darkness and sorrow. Even here in the present, in the most worst conditions one can imagine, there still is hope to cling to. God is still there. But for those that die, having rejected Yeshua, it is hard to even imagine how terrible it would be without any hope of any change. That "burning forever" thing very well could be a burning in one's spirit forever of having rejected the free gift of salvation thru Yeshua.

Just like the scripture says that Yeshua will wipe away our tears. What? Tears in the most joyous place that has or will ever exist? Yep. Again, they will be self inflicted. We will be with the Messiah who redeemed us, and then thinking about all the lost opportunities for us to tell others of the free gift of eternal life for those who place their trust in Yeshua, we will weep for having failed to do His will better than we did. That nagging guilt of "if we had just talked with that person, he/she might have trusted Yeshua and been given eternal life and joy" will come to the forefront when we see Yeshua face to face.

No one will have any justification for thinking they "made it". We all have failed miserably. It will only be placing our trust in Yeshua and what He did to pay the price for our rebellion that will mean anything on whether we have eternal life or eternal torment.
 
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Hawkins

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"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

Why do you have explain quantum physics to your kids. Just tell them to leave it to God, or figure it out when they grow up with more reasoning power.

To me, you made 2 wrong assumption here possibly as everyone else does.

1. Not everyone is a child of God
It's a wrong assumption to assume that everyone is a child of God. The Canaanites are not God's people, only the Jews are. You can't call the Canaanites the sons of God. To God, they are the wolves jeopardizing His sheep the Jews.

2. It's a wrong assumption that you are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow
The biblical parables indicate that when a branch is cut off from the tree, its leaves will turn grey and to be burnt. They are no longer the green leaves as you suggest here. You don't know your own future to tell what will you be after leaving God.

An analogy is humans turning to zombies. You will choose to kill a whole city of zombies in order to save a single fellow human. When turned, the zombies are no longer with the same conscience as humans do.

You don't have to assume that you are the same person after separated from God, more likely you will be a sinning machine like Satan and no longer with any human conscience.

The justification behind is that, in order to pull humans out during their earthly stage, Jesus' crucifixion is needed. If you want to give relief to those in hell, Jesus needs to be crucified the second time, this however won't happen. There is no law nor justification to pull them out of that state.


This earth is not a natural environment, it's God made. Hell is the most natural environment but without God's maintenance.
 
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Anguspure

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Your dodging the logic and Scripture. Black Hole? Come on. Is that what must be resorted to?

Its over. Annihilationism an CI have been laid in their graves on this thread and will soon by marginalized in the Church. The debate on this thread is won concerning Annihilationism and Conditional immortality. No one has refuted my claims on this thread concerning either one. That only leaves the traditional view and universal salvation.
The scripture in Hebrew does not support your traditional view. It takes insertions from Greek spiritualism to make unconditional human immortality.
 
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