Millennial Considerations

[seventysevens]

Scripture in Luke 16:22-24 teaches the torment of hell is like the flame of fire.

Do you deny a literal present hell and future lake of fire?

No I don't deny it , just wanted to know if you did

 

[Stephen Mendes]

For all who commented on my last post.

I know that God is working today.... everyday I see His hand on my life.... I believe that God can do anything (I don't know if other Baptists limit Him but I do not)

You all are correct in this case on two counts.... one, things are happening that I am not aware of..... two, humble people do not go about publishing such on television (as Marilyn pointed out).

Nevertheless, evil exists alongside good (tares and wheat)..... and it is crystal clear to me that the world is not 'becoming better and better' because of christian missions all over the place....... sure individual souls are being saved ...... but at the same time, the progress of evil is far outstripping the advancement of the church.

When I was a boy, people (the average Joe Blo and Jane Doe) had some respect for God and the Church.... many Hollywood movies were watchable and decent.....

In 2017, the language, violence and sexual content of 'family entertainment' is appalling and not uplifting and christians should not watch it if they want to 'draw closer to God'...... the 'childrens cartoons' are not suitable for christian adults far less children.... anybody who thinks the Tribulation is past already.... or that us christians are on our way to ushering in a better world of peace and love and the knowledge of God.... is sadly mistaken..... rather the evidence supports the approaching reign of Anti-Christ and the Great Tribulation.

The Amils do not believe in the rapture of the church.... they make a big deal of the fact that the word rapture does not occur or there is no 'single verse' (Left Behind or Led Astray).

I Corinthians 15:51 - 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 17 are where we read about the translation of the church..... and there is precedent before in scripture.... Enoch was translated..... and Elijah was also..... why would Christ leave His beloved bride to go through the Tribulation ?...... moreover, it is the removal of the Holy Spirit and the influence that He exercises through the lives of christians living on the planet that restrains evil (prevents it from taking over completely)..... with the removal of the Holy Spirit and the true church, the way is paved for the horrors of the Great Tribulation.

Why would God include His church in the punishment of the wicked ? far be it from God to do such a thing.... did He not say to Abraham that if He found 10 righteous in Sodom He would spare the place for their sake. (Genesis 18:32)

If you want to join the Amils in believing that the rapture is all lies go right ahead.

But that movie "Left Behind or Led Astray" .... is the ultimate in half-truths... outright dishonesty.... and twisted hype...... with only three goals in view....
1. Get our point across at any cost.
2. Make it as sensational as possible.
3. And (probably) rake in the dollars, fame and influence that goes along with controversial films.

This whole move away from the rapture belief is summed up nicely in 2 Peter 3:4

Believe what you will...... I know what I believe and because I understand the Word..... I am not swayed by all the 'efforts' to 're-interpret' verses in all kinds of creative ways...... coming up with fanciful interpretations by changing the emphasis on certain words..... with total lack of regard for the original Greek or Hebrew.

 

[BABerean2]

The Amils do not believe in the rapture of the church.... they make a big deal of the fact that the word rapture does not occur or there is no 'single verse' (Left Behind or Led Astray).

I Corinthians 15:51 - 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 17 are where we read about the translation of the church..... and there is precedent before in scripture.... Enoch was translated..... and Elijah was also..... why would Christ leave His beloved bride to go through the Tribulation ?...... moreover, it is the removal of the Holy Spirit and the influence that He exercises through the lives of christians living on the planet that restrains evil (prevents it from taking over completely)..... with the removal of the Holy Spirit and the true church, the way is paved for the horrors of the Great Tribulation.

Why would God include His church in the punishment of the wicked ? far be it from God to do such a thing.... did He not say to Abraham that if He found 10 righteous in Sodom He would spare the place for their sake. (Genesis 18:32)

One of the greatest errors of the doctrine that John Darby brought to America is the claim that the tribulation period is the wrath of God.
However, "tribulation" and "wrath" are two different Greek words.
Based on the following verse at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the Church.

Rev 12:12　 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 4 and chapter 5 are referring to the same event, which occurs on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16 it is clearly a Second Coming event.

Based on thousands of pages of commentaries and sermons, the American preachers who lived at the time of the Revolutionary War believed that God would gather His Church at the beginning of His Second Coming, before He pours out His wrath on unbelievers.


Very few today understand why modern Dispensational Theology needs a pretrib removal of the Church. Based on the original "classic" form of the doctrine, the Age of Grace ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ and during this time God would go back and deal with Israel under the Old Covenant system.
There are big problems with this whole idea.


The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. Based on Hebrews 8:13, the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". In Hebrews 13:20 we find that the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore, the claim that the Age of Grace ends seven years before the Second Coming and then God will go back to dealing with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system falls apart once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ.

How many sermons have we heard from Dispensational preachers on the New Covenant?
Why not?
Because once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ, modern Dispensational Theology crumbles like a piece of rotten wood.

.

 

[LastSeven]

That is exactly the point , if you really had the power of reigning you would have power over ISIS soldiers , at the very least you would have the power to stop sinning entirely , but you can't stop sinning until you receive full power and authority that Christ will give you when you receive the glorified immortal body , until then you have very limited power .
The same mistake that people make when they say that the Kingdom of God is here , yes it is here but only in part as the Kingdom is not yet in full and complete until Jesus returns.
Consider when you file your tax returns , you may be entitled to $2000 in tax return , because you followed the rules but you can't spend it until you have received the check that takes the IRS 4 to 12 weeks to process and send you the check

You're making the same mistake the Jews made when Jesus came. They were also expecting an earthly king to reign over an earthly kingdom, but Jesus told them straight up "my kingdom is not of this world". Why are you having such a hard time with that?

 

[LastSeven]

For all who commented on my last post.

I know that God is working today.... everyday I see His hand on my life.... I believe that God can do anything (I don't know if other Baptists limit Him but I do not)

You all are correct in this case on two counts.... one, things are happening that I am not aware of..... two, humble people do not go about publishing such on television (as Marilyn pointed out).

Nevertheless, evil exists alongside good (tares and wheat)..... and it is crystal clear to me that the world is not 'becoming better and better' because of christian missions all over the place....... sure individual souls are being saved ...... but at the same time, the progress of evil is far outstripping the advancement of the church.

When I was a boy, people (the average Joe Blo and Jane Doe) had some respect for God and the Church.... many Hollywood movies were watchable and decent.....

In 2017, the language, violence and sexual content of 'family entertainment' is appalling and not uplifting and christians should not watch it if they want to 'draw closer to God'...... the 'childrens cartoons' are not suitable for christian adults far less children.... anybody who thinks the Tribulation is past already.... or that us christians are on our way to ushering in a better world of peace and love and the knowledge of God.... is sadly mistaken..... rather the evidence supports the approaching reign of Anti-Christ and the Great Tribulation.

The Amils do not believe in the rapture of the church.... they make a big deal of the fact that the word rapture does not occur or there is no 'single verse' (Left Behind or Led Astray).

I Corinthians 15:51 - 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 17 are where we read about the translation of the church..... and there is precedent before in scripture.... Enoch was translated..... and Elijah was also..... why would Christ leave His beloved bride to go through the Tribulation ?...... moreover, it is the removal of the Holy Spirit and the influence that He exercises through the lives of christians living on the planet that restrains evil (prevents it from taking over completely)..... with the removal of the Holy Spirit and the true church, the way is paved for the horrors of the Great Tribulation.

Why would God include His church in the punishment of the wicked ? far be it from God to do such a thing.... did He not say to Abraham that if He found 10 righteous in Sodom He would spare the place for their sake. (Genesis 18:32)

If you want to join the Amils in believing that the rapture is all lies go right ahead.

But that movie "Left Behind or Led Astray" .... is the ultimate in half-truths... outright dishonesty.... and twisted hype...... with only three goals in view....
1. Get our point across at any cost.
2. Make it as sensational as possible.
3. And (probably) rake in the dollars, fame and influence that goes along with controversial films.

This whole move away from the rapture belief is summed up nicely in 2 Peter 3:4

Believe what you will...... I know what I believe and because I understand the Word..... I am not swayed by all the 'efforts' to 're-interpret' verses in all kinds of creative ways...... coming up with fanciful interpretations by changing the emphasis on certain words..... with total lack of regard for the original Greek or Hebrew.

The "rapture" described in 1 Thess 4 is the second resurrection. Nobody here believes it's a lie, we just don't believe it will happen until the last day, when death is swallowed up in victory. And the word "rapture" comes with a lot of baggage (thanks in part to those movies), so although I believe in the event, I don't like to use that word because of what it implies.

 

[DavidPT]

For all who commented on my last post.

I know that God is working today.... everyday I see His hand on my life.... I believe that God can do anything (I don't know if other Baptists limit Him but I do not)

You all are correct in this case on two counts.... one, things are happening that I am not aware of..... two, humble people do not go about publishing such on television (as Marilyn pointed out).

Nevertheless, evil exists alongside good (tares and wheat)..... and it is crystal clear to me that the world is not 'becoming better and better' because of christian missions all over the place....... sure individual souls are being saved ...... but at the same time, the progress of evil is far outstripping the advancement of the church.

When I was a boy, people (the average Joe Blo and Jane Doe) had some respect for God and the Church.... many Hollywood movies were watchable and decent.....

In 2017, the language, violence and sexual content of 'family entertainment' is appalling and not uplifting and christians should not watch it if they want to 'draw closer to God'...... the 'childrens cartoons' are not suitable for christian adults far less children.... anybody who thinks the Tribulation is past already.... or that us christians are on our way to ushering in a better world of peace and love and the knowledge of God.... is sadly mistaken..... rather the evidence supports the approaching reign of Anti-Christ and the Great Tribulation.

The Amils do not believe in the rapture of the church.... they make a big deal of the fact that the word rapture does not occur or there is no 'single verse' (Left Behind or Led Astray).

I Corinthians 15:51 - 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 17 are where we read about the translation of the church..... and there is precedent before in scripture.... Enoch was translated..... and Elijah was also..... why would Christ leave His beloved bride to go through the Tribulation ?...... moreover, it is the removal of the Holy Spirit and the influence that He exercises through the lives of christians living on the planet that restrains evil (prevents it from taking over completely)..... with the removal of the Holy Spirit and the true church, the way is paved for the horrors of the Great Tribulation.

Why would God include His church in the punishment of the wicked ? far be it from God to do such a thing.... did He not say to Abraham that if He found 10 righteous in Sodom He would spare the place for their sake. (Genesis 18:32)

If you want to join the Amils in believing that the rapture is all lies go right ahead.

But that movie "Left Behind or Led Astray" .... is the ultimate in half-truths... outright dishonesty.... and twisted hype...... with only three goals in view....
1. Get our point across at any cost.
2. Make it as sensational as possible.
3. And (probably) rake in the dollars, fame and influence that goes along with controversial films.

This whole move away from the rapture belief is summed up nicely in 2 Peter 3:4

Believe what you will...... I know what I believe and because I understand the Word..... I am not swayed by all the 'efforts' to 're-interpret' verses in all kinds of creative ways...... coming up with fanciful interpretations by changing the emphasis on certain words..... with total lack of regard for the original Greek or Hebrew.

As to that other post, I agreed with it because I am a former Charismatic that witnessed many of these things first hand. Was nothing but a circus act what I witnessed in those days at the time. I would never go back to being of a Charismatic denomination. I'm not talking about Pentecostalism though, I'm meaning the Charismatic movement, such as Benny Hinn, etc, are part of.

As to the rapture of the church, if you are meaning PreTrib, well I don't believe in that either, yet I'm not an Amil. There are plenty of Premils like me who do not believe in a Pretrib rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

You're making the same mistake the Jews made when Jesus came. They were also expecting an earthly king to reign over an earthly kingdom, but Jesus told them straight up "my kingdom is not of this world". Why are you having such a hard time with that?

It's all in TIMING. Then His kingdom was spiritual. But soon it will be physical. He will reign on earth "with a rod of iron."

 

[iamlamad]

The "rapture" described in 1 Thess 4 is the second resurrection. Nobody here believes it's a lie, we just don't believe it will happen until the last day, when death is swallowed up in victory. And the word "rapture" comes with a lot of baggage (thanks in part to those movies), so although I believe in the event, I don't like to use that word because of what it implies.

Well, in a way the rapture will be the second resurrection, for Jesus was first. And the next wave will certainly come 'second" after His resurrection.

Have I missed a resurrection somewhere? Has any church members since Peter and Paul were on earth raised from the dead with a resurrection body? I don't think so!

After the resurrection of the body of Christ, probably a moment before the 6th seal, there will come a third resurrection, when the 144,000 are called up to heaven. Then after that, a forth resurrection when all those who were beheaded are raised. My guess is, they will be raised at the same moment the Old Testament saints will rise: on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[iamlamad]

In my view, all passages used to describe conditions in a yet-future 1,000 year millennium are actually referring to the eternal utopian new heavens and new earth. There will not be a yet-future 1,000 year millennium, nor a rapture. All verses used to support the rapture are actually referring to the yet-future second coming of Christ.

Then you are not taking chapter 20 on literally. John did not see the new heaven and new earth until after the 1000 years has finished.

 

[LastSeven]

Then you are not taking chapter 20 on literally. John did not see the new heaven and new earth until after the 1000 years has finished.

No, he's right, all passages used to support a future millennium are actually referring to the new earth. And yet, you're also right that the new earth comes after the millennium. I'm not sure why you think your point is an argument against his.

 

[LastSeven]

It's all in TIMING. Then His kingdom was spiritual. But soon it will be physical. He will reign on earth "with a rod of iron."

And why should we believe that his rule on earth refers to the old earth, and not the new earth?

 

[BABerean2]

He will reign on earth "with a rod of iron."

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The Son destroys the flawed pots with the rod of iron.

He does not correct them.

.

 

[DavidPT]

And why should we believe that his rule on earth refers to the old earth, and not the new earth?

The ruling with a rod of iron would not be necessary for all eternity though. And since I agree with you that this ruling with a rod of iron would take place on the new earth, rather than this current one, the only way that is possible is that there is a period of time on the new earth that has a beginning and an ending. The only period of time that I can think of that might explain it would be the thousand years.

 

[seventysevens]

You're making the same mistake the Jews made when Jesus came. They were also expecting an earthly king to reign over an earthly kingdom, but Jesus told them straight up "my kingdom is not of this world". Why are you having such a hard time with that?

Are you saying that you are not aware of the scriptures that state that Jesus will have a kingdom on earth , ? oh yeah you think that has already happened , the mistake is yours for simply misinterpreting the scripture you read , such as the 1000 year reign , you misread the scriptures and expect people to agree with your false interpretation as like the 'new clothes' of a particular emperor

 

[BABerean2]

Are you saying that you are not aware of the scriptures that state that Jesus will have a kingdom on earth , ? oh yeah you think that has already happened , the mistake is yours for simply misinterpreting the scripture you read , such as the 1000 year reign , you misread the scriptures and expect people to agree with your false interpretation as like the 'new clothes' of a particular emperor

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

.

 

[Marilyn C]

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

.

Hi BABerean,

That does not negate God`s purposes to bring all rebellious rule under Christ, a step at a time.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

You're making the same mistake the Jews made when Jesus came. They were also expecting an earthly king to reign over an earthly kingdom, but Jesus told them straight up "my kingdom is not of this world". Why are you having such a hard time with that?

Hi LastSeven,

`My kingdom is not of - not from this world,` means His rule, His power and authority never came from earth or bestowed on him by people or Satan, (though he tried) but the Lord`s power and authority (rule) comes from heaven, specifically the Father, as Jesus told us - (John 5: 27 Ps. 2: 6 110: 1 & 2)

Christ will reign with His rule from the Father till He has put down all (rebellious) rule and authority. (1 Cor.15: 24 & 25) which we all know well.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[DavidPT]

Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

.

What about when Christ physically returns though? He has to dwell somewhere geographically, doesn't He? If that happens to literally be Jerusalem, what then? How is all of the above still applicable then? Isn't what you submitted only meaning in this age and not the next age as well?

 

[iamlamad]

No, he's right, all passages used to support a future millennium are actually referring to the new earth. And yet, you're also right that the new earth comes after the millennium. I'm not sure why you think your point is an argument against his.

If you think this, they you are rearranging Revelation. Why would you do that?

Rev. 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

7. When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison...

9. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

(Has there been ANY mention of a new heaven and earth up to this verse? No. )

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

Then WHEN? Then, AFTER the thousand years are over and AFTER fire has come down and killed all those who were stupid and wished to fight against God.

Note carefully, AFTER all these things, the 1000 years and the fire, THEN John saw the great white throne and saw that earth and heavens fled.

 

[iamlamad]

What about when Christ physically returns though? He has to dwell somewhere geographically, doesn't He? If that happens to literally be Jerusalem, what then? How is all of the above still applicable then? Isn't what you submitted only meaning in this age and not the next age as well?

He will be dwelling In Jerusalem. Believe it!