Should Messianic Jews support Jerusalem Third Temple?

[ralliann]

Yep! Since Yeshua is officiating in the Heavenly Temple, we will need the Levites to officiate in the Earthly Temple, when it is rebuilt.

So, if you agree Ezekiel is not in contradiction to Moses law, then Ezekiel's temple is not an earthly worldly temple...

 

[tampasteve]

So, if you agree Ezekiel is not in contradiction to Moses law, then Ezekiel's temple is not an earthly worldly temple...

Could you expound on the contradictions you are referring to?

 

[ralliann]

Could you expound on the contradictions you are referring to?

I thought we already went through this??? I quess we did not understand each other. Many see Christ as the priest in Ezekiels temple. If so, it cannot be a worldly temple, or it would be in contradiction to the law concerning the inheritance of the Levites. A kind of replacement theology IMO

 

[tampasteve]

I thought we already went through this??? I quess we did not understand each other. Many see Christ as the priest in Ezekiels temple. If so, it cannot be a worldly temple, or it would be in contradiction to the law concerning the inheritance of the Levites. A kind of replacement theology IMO

Yes, we must have misunderstood each other. No, I do not see Yeshua as the high priest in the Third Temple, he is high priest of the heavenly Temple and will reign temporally on Earth. I also do not see how it contradicts the Levite inheritance, perhaps you could enlighten me? If you are referring to the Zodok priesthood, they are of the Aaronic lineage.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, we must have misunderstood each other. No, I do not see Yeshua as the high priest in the Third Temple, he is high priest of the heavenly Temple and will reign temporally on Earth. I also do not see how it contradicts the Levite inheritance, perhaps you could enlighten me? If you are referring to the Zodok priesthood, they are of the Aaronic lineage.

I already gave you the scripture of the law on this. Only the Levites may officiate as priests in the earthly worldly temple. Christ is a royal priest, so,,,,,Either Ezekiels temple is a heavenly temple, where Christ is king priest, or He is not seen in Ezekiel as priest/king, in a worldly earthly temple.. as such other scenario contradicts Moses law concerning priesthood.

 

[tampasteve]

I already gave you the scripture of the law on this. Only the Levites may officiate as priests in the earthly worldly temple. Christ is a royal priest, so,,,,,Either Ezekiels temple is a heavenly temple, where Christ is king priest, or He is not seen in Ezekiel as priest/king, in a worldly earthly temple.. as such other scenario contradicts Moses law concerning priesthood.

There is no reason to get snippy about it, obviously we had a misunderstanding, so clarification is the best way to move forward. I am very familiar with the role of the Levitical Priesthood. I assume you are referring to the scripture in Hebrews and the rest you quoted earlier? Those definitively show that the Levite tribe is eternally the priests on Earth, we agree on this. What they do not say is that the king must also be the priest on Earth. Yeshua is the priest in the Heavenly Temple, and will be king on this Earth, but why must he be priest/king on this Earth during that reign? Why can He not have the Aaronic priests officiating in the Earthly Temple while he reigns temporally? Rev. tells us he will be priest/king in the New Heaven and New Earth, it does not say he will be priest/king of this Earth. As you quoted earlier:
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Therefore he should not be a priest on this Earth, but He will be king.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am not sure we are going to convince each other or see eye to eye on this. I am going to take a part of the last post that touch on the Temple that we have not gone over. I do not think that at this point there is a reason to re-hash the need, or lack of a need of sacrifices in the third Temple. Suffice to say that both points of view are supportable in scripture, but we disagree on how it is interpreted. I look from a Jewish perspective and you from a more or less mainline Christian perspective. Neither view is necessary for salvation, so in the end, it does not matter which of us is "right"

There is just one issue I would be concerned with. As far as salvation goes----it is Jesus that saves--it is not a temple ceremony that does it. And anyone that is relying on a dead ceremony to get them into heaven is not looking at salvation at all. This is not a matter if what I think, or anyone thinks--this is a point of thus saith the Lord. The bible says Jesus is the only way to heaven. How does that then go with a non-Jesus based ceremony going to save them? For the pre-Jesus times, it was pointing to Him, and it was set up for that to be the way to have forgiveness of sins or whatever---but now it is Jesus, and if a Jew is looking for salvation from a Non-Jesus based ceremony, how is that going to work for them? I do not see where the bible says there is any other way to be saved but through Jesus now. To let them think that there is, is to let them be lost for they would still be rejecting Jesus.

 

[Meowzltov]

And anyone that is relying on a dead ceremony to get them into heaven is not looking at salvation at all.

I don't think any Messianic is saying that a Temple sacrifice will get us into heaven. I think you have misunderstood us.

For me, there are two issues:
1. The overwhelming majority of sacrifices have nothing to do with atonement.
2. Resumption of sin offerings can be seen as a commemoration of Christ's atonement much the same way as communion is. The Jews in the early church (Acts 21) continued sacrifices. It is our theology which needs to be adjusted.

 

[DennisTate]

I don't think any Messianic is saying that a Temple sacrifice will get us into heaven. I think you have misunderstood us.

For me, there are two issues:
1. The overwhelming majority of sacrifices have nothing to do with atonement.
2. Resumption of sin offerings can be seen as a commemoration of Christ's atonement much the same way as communion is. The Jews in the early church (Acts 21) continued sacrifices. It is our theology which needs to be adjusted.

Exactly... this is not a salvation issue......
this is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit issue.....
and a twisting of the stick of Joseph with the stick of Judah issue.......

Ezekiel 37:16

Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."

 

[ralliann]

There is no reason to get snippy about it, obviously we had a misunderstanding, so clarification is the best way to move forward. I am very familiar with the role of the Levitical Priesthood. I assume you are referring to the scripture in Hebrews and the rest you quoted earlier? Those definitively show that the Levite tribe is eternally the priests on Earth, we agree on this. What they do not say is that the king must also be the priest on Earth. Yeshua is the priest in the Heavenly Temple, and will be king on this Earth, but why must he be priest/king on this Earth during that reign? Why can He not have the Aaronic priests officiating in the Earthly Temple while he reigns temporally? Rev. tells us he will be priest/king in the New Heaven and New Earth, it does not say he will be priest/king of this Earth. As you quoted earlier:
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Therefore he should not be a priest on this Earth, but He will be king.

I was not being snippy? Just explaining. I am sorry you took it that way.
Firstly, Christ is eternally a priest king. Isn't the whole issue of Ezekiel concerning a temple and a ministry? The high priest of the order of a royal priesthood, is not separate in priesthood and royalty. So, how do we expect his priestly order to cease it's function in the future? Doesn't Ezekiel mention him as a priest?
As for Hebrews and it's teaching, it agrees with what Moses taught. That is why I quoted scripture from both Moses and the New covenant teaching.

 

[ralliann]

For me, there are two issues:
1. The overwhelming majority of sacrifices have nothing to do with atonement.
2. Resumption of sin offerings can be seen as a commemoration of Christ's atonement much the same way as communion is. The Jews in the early church (Acts 21) continued sacrifices. It is our theology which needs to be adjusted.

I do not understand the significance of these two issues for you.
Neither of them have anything specific to do with what Jews did as a Church.. In other words these things had nothing to do with them being believers in Christ. Unbelievers were doing the same. Therefore what Jews did as believers was distinct from these things. As you yourself say,,,,As communion is.....

 

[DennisTate]

I do not understand the significance of these two issues for you.
Neither of them have anything specific to do with what Jews did as a Church.. In other words these things had nothing to do with them being believers in Christ. Unbelievers were doing the same. Therefore what Jews did as believers was distinct from these things. As you yourself say,,,,As communion is.....

But what about the prophecies in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets..... do you think that they come to pass..... or not?

 

[tampasteve]

I was not being snippy? Just explaining. I am sorry you took it that way.

I apologize, such is the difficulty of reading online - one cannot hear tone

Firstly, Christ is eternally a priest king.

Agreed.

Isn't the whole issue of Ezekiel concerning a temple and a ministry?

More or less, yes. Mainly building a Temple, the Third Temple, how it will look, function, etc.

The high priest of the order of a royal priesthood, is not separate in priesthood and royalty.

Agreed.

So, how do we expect his priestly order to cease it's function in the future? Doesn't Ezekiel mention him as a priest?

Yes, believers identify the person in Ezekial as Yeshua, the Heavenly Priest and Earthly King. His function as Heavenly Priest does not stop once on Earth again, but he is not the Earthly priest as scripture is clear that the Aaronic priests are priests forever on this Earth. I really do not see why you believe they are mutually exclusive. One can be something in one place but not in the current place while still holding the office and function in the first place. Further, Heaven is outside of our concept of place and time, it exists here, in the past, and forever, so Yeshua is the priest there while here, he is both at the same time.

As for Hebrews and it's teaching, it agrees with what Moses taught. That is why I quoted scripture from both Moses and the New covenant teaching.

I believe I agree, based on what I wrote above and previously. In fact, I believe that Hebrews taken together with classical Christian and Jewish understanding of Ezekial (and other prophets mentioned previously) supports my view of a literal Earthly Temple, Aaronic priests, Yeshua's Heavenly Priesthood, and His Earthly Kingship. Rev. supports his Earthly Priesthood and Kingship in the New Heaven and New Earth.

 

[ralliann]

But what about the prophecies in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets..... do you think that they come to pass..... or not?

Could you be more specific as to how you read those prophets?

 

[ralliann]

I apologize, such is the difficulty of reading online - one cannot hear tone

Agreed.

More or less, yes. Mainly building a Temple, the Third Temple, how it will look, function, etc.

Agreed.

Yes, believers identify the person in Ezekial as Yeshua, the Heavenly Priest and Earthly King. His function as Heavenly Priest does not stop once on Earth again, but he is not the Earthly priest as scripture is clear that the Aaronic priests are priests forever on this Earth. I really do not see why you believe they are mutually exclusive. One can be something in one place but not in the current place while still holding the office and function in the first place. Further, Heaven is outside of our concept of place and time, it exists here, in the past, and forever, so Yeshua is the priest there while here, he is both at the same time.

I believe I agree, based on what I wrote above and previously. In fact, I believe that Hebrews taken together with classical Christian and Jewish understanding of Ezekial (and other prophets mentioned previously) supports my view of a literal Earthly Temple, Aaronic priests, Yeshua's Heavenly Priesthood, and His Earthly Kingship. Rev. supports his Earthly Priesthood and Kingship in the New Heaven and New Earth.

I quess we just disagree. The way I see scripture is that God spoke promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Those promises are fully based upon a resurrection from the dead. The kingdom they await in Christ is what we are looking to in the resurrection.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

 

[tampasteve]

I guess we just disagree.

And that is ok

The way I see scripture is that God spoke promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Those promises are fully based upon a resurrection from the dead. The kingdom they await in Christ is what we are looking to in the resurrection.

Amen, and G-d bless.

 

[ralliann]

I apologize, such is the difficulty of reading online - one cannot hear tone

Agreed.

More or less, yes. Mainly building a Temple, the Third Temple, how it will look, function, etc.

Agreed.

Yes, believers identify the person in Ezekial as Yeshua, the Heavenly Priest and Earthly King. His function as Heavenly Priest does not stop once on Earth again, but he is not the Earthly priest as scripture is clear that the Aaronic priests are priests forever on this Earth. I really do not see why you believe they are mutually exclusive. One can be something in one place but not in the current place while still holding the office and function in the first place. Further, Heaven is outside of our concept of place and time, it exists here, in the past, and forever, so Yeshua is the priest there while here, he is both at the same time.

I believe I agree, based on what I wrote above and previously. In fact, I believe that Hebrews taken together with classical Christian and Jewish understanding of Ezekial (and other prophets mentioned previously) supports my view of a literal Earthly Temple, Aaronic priests, Yeshua's Heavenly Priesthood, and His Earthly Kingship. Rev. supports his Earthly Priesthood and Kingship in the New Heaven and New Earth.

 

[ralliann]

What puzzles me is.....How can Christ be the priest in Ezekiels temple, yet still view the temple in Ezekiel to be an earthly future temple that he serves as priest in? That has been my entire point in all this. And why I can't see that temple as a future earthly one.
Any way blessings to you.

 

[tampasteve]

What puzzles me is.....How can Christ be the priest in Ezekiels temple, yet still view the temple in Ezekiel to be an earthly future temple that he serves as priest in? That has been my entire point in all this. And why I can't see that temple as a future earthly one.
Any way blessings to you.

I don't think that I said he was the priest in Ezekiels Temple (or if I did it was a mistake of mine - on some cold meds... ). Ezekiel 42:13-14, 43:19.24-27, basically all of 44 and further in the book all identify the priests as Kohanim. I believe Ezekiel 1:26-28 are about Yeshua, but I do not believe Yeshua is the priest in Ezekiel's Temple, I believe he is the priest in the Heavenly Temple.

 

[AbbaLove]

In Chapter 40, Ezekiel is transported in a vision from his home among the exiles in Babylon to Israel (not Heaven), where a divine messenger holding a measuring rod appears to him. The messenger gives Ezekiel a tour of the Temple, measuring the various walls, gates, and courts. At one point, the glory of the Lord, which was seen departing from the Temple in an earlier vision (Chap. 10), is seen returning to inhabit the Temple (43:1–4).

Is Ezekiel's Temple a (4th) Millennial Temple on earth inhabited by the Lord assuming a 3rd Temple is yet to be built before the Lord's return. This view, commonly held among dispensationalists, is that Ezekiel’s Temple will be established after the second coming of Messiah Yeshua. Ezekiel's "restored earth" Temple will serve as the worship center for all people during the “millennium.” Is it not possible that this Temple already exists in Heaven and will be transported/translated to a new earth when Messiah Yeshua returns.

Paul also mentions the Anti-Christ’s desecration of a (3rd) Temple when he describes him as the "man of sin and the son of perdition who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the 3rd Temple, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).