Should Messianic Jews support Jerusalem Third Temple?

[DennisTate]

Personally, I do not place a ton of stock in any Bob Jones "prophesy".

His ideas are controversial so there is a tendency to have strong feelings toward him one way or the other..... I am one of those people who strongly loves the man and believe that his near death experience from 1975 was a genuine meeting with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus but..... I can see why what he taught would offend many.

 

[tampasteve]

Though I firmly believe that the Jews are still blessed by God and that they should be supported in their efforts to live in their own country safely---I do not believe that we should support the building of their temple. It may well be that it will be built, but it is something that they alone must do. At the death of Christ, the temple veil was torn and His sacrifice marked the end of animal sacrifice for sins as He is that sacrifice. To go back to animal sacrifice is to truly reject that sacrifice. This is a lesson that they must learn on their own. I do not believe that, if they build it, God will honor that temple with the holy fire that engulfs the sacrifice as in the old days. However, we must bear this in mind if fire from heaven should happen:
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Might I posit to you that the death of Yeshua was not meant to replace the sacrificial system, and the early believers did not see it that way either? I believe, and there is good evidence to support this belief, that the early believers did not view the sacrifice of Yeshua as a replacement for the temple service as has been taught by many Christians. If they believed so, why did they continue going to the Temple, move to Jerusalem to be near the Temple, continue making sacrifices as outlined in Acts and other scripture, and continue to do so up until the destruction of the temple in 70AD - around 30 years after Yeshua ascended. In fact, the evidence points that up until the destruction of the Temple that we could even say the early believers were a Temple sect. I believe the scriptures are quite clear that once the Temple is rebuilt that the sacrifices will continue, and be performed by the Aaronic priesthood again, while overseen by the Messiach. This is actually a messianic prophesy that both Christians and Jews can agree on. Perhaps they believed that the sacrifice of Messiah is to atone for sins, but that is not a replacement for all of the different sacrifices that were called for by Hashem, most of which were not for guilt.

 

[mmksparbud]

You could be correct........
I really don't know for certain......
but I did really like the article on a modern Christian political Cyrus by a man from Uganda who I get the impression had a near death experience during one of his bouts with malaria.

I quote his article in post #1 here....


Do you believe a massive Holy Spirit tsunami is coming?

I firmly believe there will probably be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit--the latter rain. However, we can not cast aside what God has shown us. The end of animal sacrifice was finished with His sacrifice. God can not honor the return of it, for it rejects what Christ has already done. I know about the Ezekiel verses pointing to animal sacrifices---I simply can not believe that God would reinstate something He did away with and that that vision of Ezekiel was tainted by his firm believe that the temple had to be in place at the last days and in fact, would never be done away with. Another however---Rev describes the remade earth with this:

Rev_21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Might I posit to you that the death of Yeshua was not meant to replace the sacrificial system, and the early believers did not see it that way either? I believe, and there is good evidence to support this belief, that the early believers did not view the sacrifice of Yeshua as a replacement for the temple service as has been taught by many Christians. If they believed so, why did they continue going to the Temple, move to Jerusalem to be near the Temple, continue making sacrifices as outlined in Acts and other scripture, and continue to do so up until the destruction of the temple in 70AD - around 30 years after Yeshua ascended. In fact, the evidence points that up until the destruction of the Temple that we could even say the early believers were a Temple sect. I believe the scriptures are quite clear that once the Temple is rebuilt that the sacrifices will continue, and be performed by the Aaronic priesthood again, while overseen by the Messiach. This is actually a messianic prophesy that both Christians and Jews can agree on. Perhaps they believed that the sacrifice of Messiah is to atone for sins, but that is not a replacement for all of the different sacrifices that were called for by Hashem, most of which were not for guilt.

Non believers continued to go to the temple. The disciples continued to go to the temple, for that is where the Jews were gathered and their mission was to the Jew first. The believers themselves were gathering in houses and riverbanks. There is not one hint in the NT that animal sacrifices of any kind were to continue. For it is Jesus Himself that is now our High priest, it is He that offers all grace.

Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Eph_5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb_7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb_10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb_10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb_13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

 

[tampasteve]

I firmly believe there will probably be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit--the latter rain. However, we can not cast aside what God has shown us. The end of animal sacrifice was finished with His sacrifice. God can not honor the return of it, for it rejects what Christ has already done. I know about the Ezekiel verses pointing to animal sacrifices---I simply can not believe that God would reinstate something He did away with and that that vision of Ezekiel was tainted by his firm believe that the temple had to be in place at the last days and in fact, would never be done away with. Another however---Rev describes the remade earth with this:

Rev_21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

But if we are to be complete Christians, we must take the whole of scripture into account, we cannot discard something because we are not comfortable with it. Would it perhaps be possible that the understanding of what the sacrifice of Messiach was is misunderstood? I would point to looking deeper into exactly what the sacrificial system was about. It was about drawing closer to G-d, communing with Him, not blood and gore. We must remember that a sacrifice was not necessarily animal, grain was also allowed if you could not pay for an animal. Scripture certainly points to a return to it, a return to what G-d called to be eternal and forever. Perhaps the sacrifice of Yeshua was a symbolic sacrifice and it was to atone for our sins, but not meant as a replacement for the other sacrifices. We must remember that G-d never desired a human sacrifice (the one time he asked of it, he did not really desire it). In fact, in Judaism we understand that suffering by the righteous is partly to atone for the sins of others. Understood in this way we can see that Yeshua was atoning for our sins by his suffering and death (which he overcame), as is taught by most Christian churches, but that the bodily sacrifice was not meant as a literal human/god sacrifice as that would be against previous commands by G-d.

 

[tampasteve]

Non believers continued to go to the temple. The disciples continued to go to the temple, for that is where the Jews were gathered and their mission was to the Jew first. The believers themselves were gathering in houses and riverbanks. There is not one hint in the NT that animal sacrifices of any kind were to continue. For it is Jesus Himself that is now our High priest, it is He that offers all grace.

Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Eph_5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb_7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb_10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb_10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb_13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

The book of Acts speaks of Paul going to make sacrifice, and paying for others as well. The disciples kept going to the Temple because they were Jews and were bound by that covenant and that Law so long as the Temple was there. Once the Temple was gone of course that changed the whole dynamic. It is naive of us to believe that the early believers were moving to Jerusalem and going to the Temple daily and not making sacrifices. The early believers met in the synagogues and at the Temple. Only after they were expelled from them did they start meeting in homes, or if the community was so small that it did not have a synagogue of course. This is clear from Acts and other writings, as well as archaeological evidence. Again, most sacrifices were not in fact for sin, they were for other purposes. The Tanakh is also clear that sin is best atoned by prayer.

 

[mmksparbud]

But if we are to be complete Christians, we must take the whole of scripture into account, we cannot discard something because we are not comfortable with it. Would it perhaps be possible that the understanding of what the sacrifice of Messiach was is misunderstood? I would point to looking deeper into exactly what the sacrificial system was about. It was about drawing closer to G-d, communing with Him, not blood and gore. We must remember that a sacrifice was not necessarily animal, grain was also allowed if you could not pay for an animal. Scripture certainly points to a return to it, a return to what G-d called to be eternal and forever. Perhaps the sacrifice of Yeshua was a symbolic sacrifice and it was to atone for our sins, but not meant as a replacement for the other sacrifices. We must remember that G-d never desired a human sacrifice (the one time he asked of it, he did not really desire it). In fact, in Judaism we understand that suffering by the righteous is partly to atone for the sins of others. Understood in this way we can see that Yeshua was atoning for our sins by his suffering and death (which he overcame), as is taught by most Christian churches, but that the bodily sacrifice was not meant as a literal human/god sacrifice as that would be against previous commands by G-d.

I would say the same thing to you--do not discard what the apostles wrote to try to prove a theory of your own. You can not read Hebrews and determine that animal sacrifice is in any way needed anymore.
God never desired a human sacrifice---that is true, And Satan has distorted the animal sacrifice to include human sacrifice in placarding heathen gods. God had always one sacrifice in mind and one only--His Son.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his hee

 

[mmksparbud]

The book of Acts speaks of Paul going to make sacrifice, and paying for others as well. The disciples kept going to the Temple because they were Jews and were bound by that covenant and that Law so long as the Temple was there. Once the Temple was gone of course that changed the whole dynamic. It is naive of us to believe that the early believers were moving to Jerusalem and going to the Temple daily and not making sacrifices. The early believers met in the synagogues and at the Temple. Only after they were expelled from them did they start meeting in homes, or if the community was so small that it did not have a synagogue of course. This is clear from Acts and other writings, as well as archaeological evidence. Again, most sacrifices were not in fact for sin, they were for other purposes. The Tanakh is also clear that sin is best atoned by prayer.

Please state the verses. No believer, once they understood the sacrifice of the Lamb, continued to go offer sacrifices in the temple. The apostles went there to preach to the Jews, not to offer sacrifices. Please state the verses that say they did for all of Hebrews state the opposite.

 

[tampasteve]

I would say the same thing to you--do not discard what the apostles wrote to try to prove a theory of your own.

in all due respect, it is not my theory, it is a rather well fleshed out theological argument based around fact, scripture, and the way that Judaism is and was practiced around the 1st century.

You can not read Hebrews and determine that animal sacrifice is in any way needed anymore.

Sure we can, Hebrews points that a sacrifice for sin may not be needed, but it is more or less silent on the other sacrifices that were being offered. Remember, almost all sacrifices were not for sin. Further, it is a argument in Judaism that the reason the righteous suffer is for others, with this argument we can support the suffering of the Messiah, and why he had to suffer. Without this argument it is much more difficult to defend Yeshua as the Messiach.

Please state the verses.

Acts 21:26 - NASB
Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

No believer, once they understood the sacrifice of the Lamb, continued to go offer sacrifices in the temple.

This is often pointed out by some, but please show me where this is supported in scripture. Yeshua himself says that he has not come to abolish the Law (Mat. 5:17). Scripture tells us that the Aaronic priesthood is to be eternal and forever. We know that the believers continued to go to the Temple until it was destroyed, obviously once it was destroyed, or in the diaspora this was not possible.

The apostles went there to preach to the Jews, not to offer sacrifices. Please state the verses that say they did for all of Hebrews state the opposite.

Please show me in scripture where it says that all they were doing at the Temple was preaching. For my part, we can see in scripture that the believers were attending Sabbath services at the synagogues and Temple, observing the feasts, and continuing as "good" Jewish people. Paul calls himself a Pharisee (which of course mean he believed and practiced as one), the council at Jerusalem questioned him and he showed that he was practicing, and then they advised him to purify and make a sacrifice. If the council members were advising him to do as such we can only surmise that they also were still doing this.

 

[mmksparbud]

Acts 21:26 - NASB
Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Read the whole thing:
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The ritual of purification was of cleansing with water. These men had made a vow and must keep their vows. And BTW--they never got to do anything:

Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

 

[tampasteve]

Read the whole thing:
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The ritual of purification was of cleansing with water. These men had made a vow and must keep their vows. And BTW--they never got to do anything:

Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

I agree that gentiles are (and were never) not bound by the Mosaic Law or sacrifices, we are only bound by what you bolded, anything we wish to add is considered a good mitzvot, but is not required for salvation or anything else other than our own desire to get closer to G-d in a particular way. The early believers are quite clear on what is required, as you outline above in verse 25. True, the ritual purification was of water, but the vow also demanded a sacrifice. As to Paul and the others not being able to complete the sacrifice, that is true they were not, but they intended to, which means they believed they should do it. Further, as you point out their sacrifice was not a sin sacrifice, which is exactly what I have been saying.

 

[tampasteve]

It occurs to me that you might think I believe gentiles are under obligation to follow Mosaic law on sacrifices, I did not mean to imply that if this is the case - I do not believe gentiles are under this obligation.

 

[mmksparbud]

I agree that gentiles are (and were never) not bound by the Mosaic Law or sacrifices, we are only bound by what you bolded, anything we wish to add is considered a good mitzvot, but is not required for salvation or anything else other than our own desire to get closer to G-d in a particular way. The early believers are quite clear on what is required, as you outline above in verse 25. True, the ritual purification was of water, but the vow also demanded a sacrifice. As to Paul and the others not being able to complete the sacrifice, that is true they were not, but they intended to, which means they believed they should do it. Further, as you point out their sacrifice was not a sin sacrifice, which is exactly what I have been saying.

Now that I've got the 18 hamburger buns made I can pay more attention!

Those men were performing a Nazarite vow--thus the shaved heads.
Num_6:18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.
Num_6:19 And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:
Num_6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.
Num_6:21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

It was not a sin offering. Most offerings of this nature did not require blood---for there was no sin to forgive. They used meal, flour, oil--All of this is a far cry from instituting animal sacrifices for removal of sins. Christ has done that.
Heb_7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb_10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Reinstating animal sacrifice for the propose of removal of sins is not biblically supported and if there were fire to come down from heaven over those sacrifices--it would not be of God.
I don't know if anyone makes Nazarite vows anymore?

 

[Open Heart]

When a Jew prays to GOD, GOD will hear his prayers. And GOD will open his eyes to THE TRUTH

God has specifically placed veil before the eyes of the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. That means that a Jew who prays to God for the truth about Jesus may or may not be shown it.

 

[ralliann]

But if we are to be complete Christians, we must take the whole of scripture into account, we cannot discard something because we are not comfortable with it.

Why assume someone discards scripture due to discomfort? Maybe they just see things differently?

 

[ralliann]

Might I posit to you that the death of Yeshua was not meant to replace the sacrificial system, and the early believers did not see it that way either? I believe, and there is good evidence to support this belief, that the early believers did not view the sacrifice of Yeshua as a replacement for the temple service as has been taught by many Christians. If they believed so, why did they continue going to the Temple, move to Jerusalem to be near the Temple, continue making sacrifices as outlined in Acts and other scripture, and continue to do so up until the destruction of the temple in 70AD - around 30 years after Yeshua ascended.

Christ prophesied concerning the destruction of the temple,As well as John the Baptist, (Christ's forerunner) also prophesied the coming wrath.
So that Christ and his followers were not blamed for it's destruction. So that Christ would not be made a false prophet, nor his followers the reason for his wrath when it fell.
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

 

[pat34lee]

Though I firmly believe that the Jews are still blessed by God and that they should be supported in their efforts to live in their own country safely---I do not believe that we should support the building of their temple. It may well be that it will be built, but it is something that they alone must do. At the death of Christ, the temple veil was torn and His sacrifice marked the end of animal sacrifice for sins as He is that sacrifice. To go back to animal sacrifice is to truly reject that sacrifice. This is a lesson that they must learn on their own. I do not believe that, if they build it, God will honor that temple with the holy fire that engulfs the sacrifice as in the old days.

You should study about the temple and the sacrifices.
They weren't all about sin. Yeshua himself will be the
high priest and king at the millennial temple, and there
will be sacrifices made.

 

[tampasteve]

Why assume someone discards scripture due to discomfort? Maybe they just see things differently?

Because the person I was quoting implied that they were not comfortable with the prophesy:

" I know about the Ezekiel verses pointing to animal sacrifices---I simply can not believe that God would reinstate something He did away with and that that vision of Ezekiel was tainted by his firm believe that the temple had to be in place at the last days and in fact, would never be done away with."​

I was being generous by saying "not comfortable" when in fact it is actually much more of an issue potentially if the OP is questioning the scripture - where does it end? What prophesies are tainted and which are to be believed? Now, I can certainly agree that there are different ways to interpret the scripture and I know that my views are not the mainstream Christian ones even though I believe they are the correct interpretation.

Christ prophesied concerning the destruction of the temple,As well as John the Baptist, (Christ's forerunner) also prophesied the coming wrath.
So that Christ and his followers were not blamed for it's destruction. So that Christ would not be made a false prophet, nor his followers the reason for his wrath when it fell.
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

I completely agree that Yeshua prophesied about the destruction of the Temple.

 

[ralliann]

They weren't all about sin. Yeshua himself will be the
high priest and king at the millennial temple, and there
will be sacrifices made.

The offerings in the Levitical order are not given to another tribe...
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

 

[ralliann]

Because the person I was quoting implied that they were not comfortable with the prophesy:

" I know about the Ezekiel verses pointing to animal sacrifices---I simply can not believe that God would reinstate something He did away with and that that vision of Ezekiel was tainted by his firm believe that the temple had to be in place at the last days and in fact, would never be done away with."​

I was being generous by saying "not comfortable" when in fact it is actually much more of an issue potentially if the OP is questioning the scripture - where does it end? What prophesies are tainted and which are to be believed? Now, I can certainly agree that there are different ways to interpret the scripture and I know that my views are not the mainstream Christian ones even though I believe they are the correct interpretation.

I completely agree that Yeshua prophesied about the destruction of the Temple.

Not seeing anything other than his understanding of scripture, causing him to not be able to believe what you believe. Jesus also said it was no longer the place where men would worship God.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.