Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

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It means He will speak to God about your sins.

So you believe that believers will still be murdering, hating, raping, lying, and getting drunk (which causes pain) in the Final New Earth?

If so, how do you reconcile that with this verse here?

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4).
 
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Jason0047 said:
The Bible teaches that we can overcome serious sin in this life.
It does not.

Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).
 
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Therefore are you saying, you have not put on Christ, you are not in the Spirit. AND you cannot profess.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

How does a Believer Put On Christ?

By repenting of their sins. For a true definition of repentance: Compare Matthew 12:41 with Jonah 3:6-10.
 
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omega2xx

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Nope. It is Paul speaking about the warring that goes on between the minds desires and the hearts desires. What I just posted about.

It's your Job to make your mind listen to you heart.

Paul is simply telling you in his words HOW Difficult, and frustrating, it is to accomplish.

You are basically having a WAR with yourself... Your Mind and Your spirit.

And each Thing... trying to convince the other to relent and do what IT desires.

Already told you, it's Hard... If Paul's rendition better suits you, that's fine...

However it seems neither Paul's words or mine have succeeded in helping you to understand it is not about him Sinning, but rather about the constant Minds desires warring against the constant Hearts desires.

Paul speaks of Also what a relief when our physical body dies and we no longer have to deal with the Carnal mind trying to convince the heart to relent and go along with the minds desires.

God Bless
SBC


What is it about "for the good I want, I DO NOT DO, but I practice the very evil that I do not want," you don't understand?
 
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omega2xx

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Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

The verses you quote simply tell us to do good work as a witness to others, Christians and non-Christians. Good works do not keep us from sinning.

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).
 
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What is it about "for the good I want, I DO NOT DO, but I practice the very evil that I do not want," you don't understand?

At this point in Romans 7, Paul said this as a Pharisee (who struggled to obey the Old Law) and not as a Christian (who is under a New Covenant with New Commands).
 
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omega2xx

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So you believe that believers will still be murdering, hating, raping, lying, and getting drunk (which causes pain) in the Final New Earth?

Someone who claimed to be a Christian murdered an abortion doctor; SBC has not loved his enemy.
he who says he has no sin is as liar; anyone truly born again will not rape; Christians continue to lie, hopefully not a much as before; because of the fall, Christians can become addicted to alcohol.

If so, how do you reconcile that with this verse here?

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4).

Only in heaven will we sin no more.
 
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omega2xx

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Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


Those verse don't say we can, they say we should.
 
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omega2xx

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At this point in Romans 7, Paul said this as a Pharisee (who struggled to obey the Old Law) and not as a Christian (who is under a New Covenant with New Commands).

When Paul wrote Romans, he was no longer a Pharisee. He preached against all forme of legalism.
 
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When Paul wrote Romans, he was no longer a Pharisee.

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."


However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 
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He preached against all forme of legalism.

While Paul was against "Works Alone Salvationism" that left out faith and God's grace, Paul was not against the requirement in having an obedience to God; For Paul said,

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4). (Note: James says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6)).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
(Note: "Anathema" means "accursed"; And Jesus says: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).)

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22) (KJ21).

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).
(Note: How can we have an assurance in knowing whether or not Christ lives within us? The apostle John says in 1 John 2:3-4, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.").

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 14:37).
 
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SBC

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If you say you are saved, I accept that you are.

The Scrippture Iq

I am.

And inasmuch as scripture teaches you will know a man By his fruits....

Men tend to thus observe other men....
By what he says and does...and men love to be critical of other men...in a funny way really...critizing what others do, yet they do the same and criticizing others for what they don't do, yet they don't do the same.

Thus our own criticisms can often be a reflection of ourselves and WHY we have to know When Judgement IS or IS not JUST.

From personal judgement to a Bench Sitting Judge. Pretty tough to accept A Bench sitting Judges rendering of a ; for example Cocain penalty Sentence, when the Judge himself does the same.

So how does one Know the Fruits of a man claiming to Be COMMITED To God, TO Christ, To The Word of God?

By the mans "word"?
That is an initial start.
However the Evidence...
Is such a man Will Never Speak Against those things. Will Never Deny or perpetuate Disbelief.

GodBless
SBC
 
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SBC

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What is it about "for the good I want, I DO NOT DO, but I practice the very evil that I do not want," you don't understand?

You, without discussion between us, are the one WHO has decided I do not understand the meaning, not me.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Someone who claimed to be a Christian murdered an abortion doctor; SBC has not loved his enemy.
he who says he has no sin is as liar; anyone truly born again will not rape; Christians continue to lie, hopefully not a much as before; because of the fall, Christians can become addicted to alcohol.
Only in heaven will we sin no more.

You want to Talk About me...then at least do so with the Truth that is according to my words about me...Rather than You speaking FALSE things and attributing YOUR FALSE words to me.

Where Has Anyone me or otherwise Said....

They Have Not loved their Enemy?
You presented the Context " that a Saved man Will AUTOMATICALLY love his enemy"

I disagreed with you. Loving ones enemy IS not automatic. A man Who commits his Love to the Lord is effecting a relationship between him and the Lord.

The How a man establishes a relationship with others is a learned behavior Not automatic.

And clearly I represented myself with having achieved that knowledge and submission to loving my enemy....and you come along with ignoring my own words and attempt to speak things For me that Are FALSE.

And WHO here has SAID ...they have no sin?

NO ONE!

Not one person have I seen Make That Claim "for themselves". Not one person!

But I have Seen several WHO Like To MAKE CLAIMS "FOR" others...and not Only make claims FOR others... but then go off on a spree of endless tongue lashing Toward the Person.....who NEVER....made the claim to begin with!!!

So here you are...calling people LIARS....who claim they have No Sin.

And Why is that comment relevant To Any conversation in this Entire OP.....?

When not One person has made such a claim?

You say...

Only in heaven we will sin no more

Disagree. Scripture teaches no such thing.

Stop talking For Me. My own words are sufficient for me concerning myself.

God Bless
SBC
 
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JIMINZ

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By repenting of their sins. For a true definition of repentance: Compare Matthew 12:41 with Jonah 3:6-10.
.
I asked you a specific question about your specific belief, I didn't ask about what they did or believed.

Lets try this again.

Therefore are you saying, you have Not put on Christ, you are not in the Spirit. AND you cannot profess.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

How does a Believer Put On Christ?
 
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ToBeLoved

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At this point in Romans 7, Paul said this as a Pharisee (who struggled to obey the Old Law) and not as a Christian (who is under a New Covenant with New Commands).
Nope. Paul was Paul, Saul was a Pharisee and this was Paul speaking as a New Covenant Christian.
 
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I asked you a specific question about your specific belief, I didn't ask about what they did or believed.

Lets try this again.

Therefore are you saying, you have Not put on Christ, you are not in the Spirit. AND you cannot profess.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

How does a Believer Put On Christ?

A person puts on Christ by accepting Him as their Savior.

6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving." (Colossians 2:6-7).
 
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Nope. Paul was Paul, Saul was a Pharisee and this was Paul speaking as a New Covenant Christian.

How was Paul alive without the Law once before as a Christian? See Romans 7:9.
 
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