Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

[SBC]

Good point but IMO, that was the end of sin in heaven.



Agreed



Thank you. That would been a very strange theology for a Christian.

What theology and who's theology are you referencing?

God Bless
SBC

 

[Brokenhill]

And? Who said otherwise?

Alter call is simply a man made term that has become synonymous with teachings in scripture for men to confess their sins one to another.

It's a fall back on OT laws, when a man revealed his own belief by obedience to their laws...And the inclusion of teaching a man HOW TO submit their life to Christ.... repent for Disbelief...and claim from their heart They now Believe.

No, an alter call doesn't Save men.
An alter call simply notifies witnesses that particular man IS submitting his Life in Belief To the Lord.

It is the Lord that does the Saving regardless of when or where the man submits his Life to the Lord.


God Bless,
SBC

I'm not trying not to get sidetracked by the altar call. My main point was regarding Revelation 3:1-5.

 

[Brokenhill]

I don't see theses conditions you speak of?

There were people that Jesus added to the Book of Life. however, at some point they began erring and Jesus said to them REPENT or else He would blot out their names from the book of life. Repentance became a condition AFTER they were already saved.
Revelation 2:10 says "be faithful unto death, and you will receive the crown of life". If you're faithful for 35 years, and then you turn away and go back to a life of sin and rejection of God for the last 5 years of your life...you will NOT get the crown of life.

 

[Brokenhill]

.
Where does this confessing take place, on a desert isle, a forest, atop a mountain?

Or is the confession made BEFORE MEN, what men, CHRISTIANS, where are these Christians?

In a Church setting?

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Sounds sort of like an Alter call to me.



You said here in your post #361 that Free Will didn't have to appear in Scripture, now your saying that because (Alter Call) doesn't appear in Scripture, that it is invalid.

Let me clarify:
What typically happens in modern churches during an altar call is only PART of what the NT teaches regarding coming to Christ to get IN Christ.

I agree, confessing Christ is essential to coming to Christ, as you have proved with Matthew 10:32.
And at this point it goes without saying that before that you have to understand/believe in the Gospel of Jesus in order to know what you're confessing.

Also, you have repentance from your previous life of sin, and repentance toward God so that you learn + do his will (faith when properly defined is a WORKING faith).

And then the final step to being initiated into Christ is water + spirit baptism (happens at same time).

Acts 2:38 "38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Galatians 3:27 "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

You are not in Christ until after water/spirit baptism.

So basically, if we look at ALL the scriptures of the NT about salvation, we can conclude the the following is how we get INTO Christ:

1. Hear/understand the Gospel (Romans 10:17)
2. Believe in Jesus as your Savior to the point that your belief becomes a working faith (John 3:16; James 2:19)
3. Confess Christ as the Son of God/your Savior (Matthew 10:32)
4. Repent of your sins (Luke 5:32)
5. Be submerged in water for the forgiveness of sins + the seal of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:36-38; 1 Peter 3:21)

At this point you are IN Christ as Galatians 3:27 and teaches. (Note that God adds you to the Church Acts 2:47)

6. But then looking at Revelation 2:10 again, we see that there is a condition that remains after we have been initiated into the Church, the Body of Christ...we must remain faithful until death. That is a condition! We cannot walk away from God and expect to be saved in the day of judgment.

____
We have to take ALL scripture as one, we can't just pick and choose what we like. There is more to become a Christian than just believing in Jesus + confessing His name at the altar call.

 

[JIMINZ]

We have to take ALL scripture as one, we can't just pick and choose what we like.

There is more to become a Christian than just believing in Jesus + confessing His name at the altar call.

.
Although I am able to agree with some of what you say, there remains, the fact, you have picked and chosen only the Scripture which you like.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[JIMINZ]

There were people that Jesus added to the Book of Life. however, at some point they began erring and Jesus said to them REPENT or else He would blot out their names from the book of life. Repentance became a condition AFTER they were already saved.
Revelation 2:10 says "be faithful unto death, and you will receive the crown of life". If you're faithful for 35 years, and then you turn away and go back to a life of sin and rejection of God for the last 5 years of your life...you will NOT get the crown of life.

.
As far as your understanding is concerned, I am ale to see your point, but this verse below speaks of a specific person, a specific sin, and the consequences of that sin as far as Paul was concerned.

From what Paul said, the man did not lose his Salvation, was not taken out of the Book of life, even though from the sound of it, this was not just a one time sin which he committed, but an ongoing affair.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[SBC]

I'm not trying not to get sidetracked by the altar call. My main point was regarding Revelation 3:1-5.

You haven't made a point.
You identified 5 passages and?
What about them?

God Bless
SBC

 

[omega2xx]

What theology and who's theology are you referencing?

God Bless
SBC

I was referring to something you said, that I misread.

 

[Brokenhill]

.
Although I am able to agree with some of what you say, there remains, the fact, you have picked and chosen only the Scripture which you like.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Not at all, I provided what is representative of the entire NT.

What is your point with Mark 16:16? I agree that he who believes and is baptized is saved. If you just believe, or you are just baptized, then you are not saved.

 

[Brokenhill]

.
As far as your understanding is concerned, I am ale to see your point, but this verse below speaks of a specific person, a specific sin, and the consequences of that sin as far as Paul was concerned.

From what Paul said, the man did not lose his Salvation, was not taken out of the Book of life, even though from the sound of it, this was not just a one time sin which he committed, but an ongoing affair.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I didn't mean to suggest that a person who stumbles from time to time will be blotted out. We all stumble. Scripture talks about those who continue walk in darkness after knowing the light are those who are blotted out.

And yes, you posted a very interesting passage. But 1 Cor. 5 does not take away from Revelation 3. The passage in 1 Cor. 5 could just be talking about the possibility of the spirit being saved in the end, if they repent after being physically punished as a warning. There are other passages that talk about the discipline of the lord (such as 1 Corinthians 11:30-31), which very well could tie back into the teaching of Jesus with being pruned vines for bearing fruit (John 15:1-8) as well as the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6-8).

Regardless of the specific meaning of 1 Cor. 5, it doesn't take away from the handful of scripture that teach that it is possible to have your name blotted out of the Book of Life. And there is not contradiction there either.

 

[Brokenhill]

You haven't made a point.
You identified 5 passages and?
What about them?

God Bless
SBC

Jesus gives a condition of repentance to certain members of the church in Sardis, or else He will blot them out from the Book of Life. Jesus clearly states that it is possible to forfeit your salvation.

The NT overall teaches a continual love/working faith relationship with Christ in order to be pleasing to God. There is no "sinners prayers" or even "5 step" approach (which i showed) that just flat out saves you once and for all--we must walk in the Light. We must stay on the straight and narrow.

We can turn our backs on the Light.

We can turn off of the narrow path.

This is why Jesus teaches "pray that you enter not into temptation". He knows the fragility of our hearts/minds.

 

[SBC]

Jesus gives a condition of repentance to certain members of the church in Sardis, or else He will blot them out from the Book of Life. Jesus clearly states that it is possible to forfeit your salvation.

The NT overall teaches a continual love/working faith relationship with Christ in order to be pleasing to God. There is no "sinners prayers" or even "5 step" approach (which i showed) that just flat out saves you once and for all--we must walk in the Light. We must stay on the straight and narrow.

We can turn our backs on the Light.

We can turn off of the narrow path.

This is why Jesus teaches "pray that you enter not into temptation". He knows the fragility of our hearts/minds.

LIFE-
1) mans Natural Blood in his Body of Dust.
2) Gods Breath, imparted into souls, He has made, that God Then, By His Power, Blows That Living soul into Body's He Forms.
Then, That Body, becomes Alive in its own independent Life....its Blood now moves,
Pumps it's heart, and that body is now alive,
Until that Blood Stops pumping through its heart.
3) If that Blood stops pumping its heart,
The life of that BODY Dies. The living soul departs the dying body. The body becomes dead, rots and returns to dust.
4) The departed living soul Will Go either TO
God "WITH GOD " In Heaven Or; TO Hell
"WITHOUT GOD".

The Determination OF Where a mans Living soul WILL Go... WHEN His natural Blood Life IS dying....

IS soley Dependent upon SALVATION!

SALVATION- Is a Provision God Has MADE For ALL Men.

All natural born men (bodies) MUST be brought INTO Living....Before they CAN DIE.

It is a body receiving a Livimg soul VIA Gods Breath that Brings The Blood Life of a body into A living state.

Every Living Body, by its Name, IS recorded IN Gods Book Of LIFE.

Thus Every Living Body IS Provided SALVATION for their Living soul TO "KEEP" FOREVER LIFE... AFTER, Their natural Blood life Body Dies.

SALVATION-

For a JEW - is received By Them, By their continued Obedience TO their Religious Laws, until their Blood Life ends

For a Jew - Who Does Not Keep Obedience or Being Obedient TO their Law, At the Time of Their Blood life ending...They have rejected their Salvation, Thus lose their Salvation.

For a Christian- Following along in the Christian Religion, Upon their natural Blood life, Sall also, lose their Salvation.

For a Christian- WHO....HAS...Accepted AN ADDITIONAL Life From God....
Above and Beyond...
His body's Blood life
And
His soul's Life From God

The ADDITIONAL Life being...That mans natural spirit Becoming Born Again From The SEED of God....

That Man IS THEN forgiven of All Sin and Forever That mans Salvation of his soul, his spirit IS Never in jeopardy of Being Lost.

That man, like All men Must bodily Die Once,
And fulfills that Requirement by being crucified WITH Christ.
That man may or may not naturally die.
It matters not. His body, soul & spirit are
SEALED and Testified TO God TO have Eternal Life FOREVER WITH God. His Name has NO jeopardy of being blotted out of God Book of LIFE.

Any Jew, lacking in obedience to the law...puts himself in jeopardy of Losing his Salvation. His remedy is to again become obedient to his law Before His bodily death.

Any man following the Christian Religion, puts himself in jeopardy of Losing his Salvation IF he does Not Accept Additional Life From God, BY and through God Birthing that man A new spirit, OF Gods Seed.

So ya... Men both Jew and Gentile Can Lose Salvation that was provided For THEM...

By Not...for a Jew maintaining their Salvation BY obediance to Their Law.

By Not...for a Gentile submitting to receiving Additional Life From God, of His Seed, birthing Them a New spirit.

You are trying to make Your Walk In The Light, According To Jewis Laws.

My Walk In the Light, IS NOT according To Jewish Laws.

My Walk in THE Light is according TO MY quickened spirit, Born of Gods Seed, walking In and With Gods Spirit! Precisely because I am FREED From Sin and Wholly made Whole,
I am given the Gift to acceptably Walk With God.

I have ZERO possibility of Sinning, of standing against God, of getting off the Straight and Narrow Path, of Not entering through the Gate to Christs Kingdom, of Not being Redeemed.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Brokenhill]

LIFE-
1) mans Natural Blood in his Body of Dust.
2) Gods Breath, imparted into souls, He has made, that God Then, By His Power, Blows That Living soul into Body's He Forms.
Then, That Body, becomes Alive in its own independent Life....its Blood now moves,
Pumps it's heart, and that body is now alive,
Until that Blood Stops pumping through its heart.
3) If that Blood stops pumping its heart,
The life of that BODY Dies. The living soul departs the dying body. The body becomes dead, rots and returns to dust.
4) The departed living soul Will Go either TO
God "WITH GOD " In Heaven Or; TO Hell
"WITHOUT GOD".

The Determination OF Where a mans Living soul WILL Go... WHEN His natural Blood Life IS dying....

IS soley Dependent upon SALVATION!

SALVATION- Is a Provision God Has MADE For ALL Men.

All natural born men (bodies) MUST be brought INTO Living....Before they CAN DIE.

It is a body receiving a Livimg soul VIA Gods Breath that Brings The Blood Life of a body into A living state.

Every Living Body, by its Name, IS recorded IN Gods Book Of LIFE.

Thus Every Living Body IS Provided SALVATION for their Living soul TO "KEEP" FOREVER LIFE... AFTER, Their natural Blood life Body Dies.

SALVATION-

For a JEW - is received By Them, By their continued Obedience TO their Religious Laws, until their Blood Life ends

For a Jew - Who Does Not Keep Obedience or Being Obedient TO their Law, At the Time of Their Blood life ending...They have rejected their Salvation, Thus lose their Salvation.

For a Christian- Following along in the Christian Religion, Upon their natural Blood life, Sall also, lose their Salvation.

For a Christian- WHO....HAS...Accepted AN ADDITIONAL Life From God....
Above and Beyond...
His body's Blood life
And
His soul's Life From God

The ADDITIONAL Life being...That mans natural spirit Becoming Born Again From The SEED of God....

That Man IS THEN forgiven of All Sin and Forever That mans Salvation of his soul, his spirit IS Never in jeopardy of Being Lost.

That man, like All men Must bodily Die Once,
And fulfills that Requirement by being crucified WITH Christ.
That man may or may not naturally die.
It matters not. His body, soul & spirit are
SEALED and Testified TO God TO have Eternal Life FOREVER WITH God. His Name has NO jeopardy of being blotted out of God Book of LIFE.

Any Jew, lacking in obedience to the law...puts himself in jeopardy of Losing his Salvation. His remedy is to again become obedient to his law Before His bodily death.

Any man following the Christian Religion, puts himself in jeopardy of Losing his Salvation IF he does Not Accept Additional Life From God, BY and through God Birthing that man A new spirit, OF Gods Seed.

So ya... Men both Jew and Gentile Can Lose Salvation that was provided For THEM...

By Not...for a Jew maintaining their Salvation BY obediance to Their Law.

By Not...for a Gentile submitting to receiving Additional Life From God, of His Seed, birthing Them a New spirit.

You are trying to make Your Walk In The Light, According To Jewis Laws.

My Walk In the Light, IS NOT according To Jewish Laws.

My Walk in THE Light is according TO MY quickened spirit, Born of Gods Seed, walking In and With Gods Spirit! Precisely because I am FREED From Sin and Wholly made Whole,
I am given the Gift to acceptably Walk With God.

I have ZERO possibility of Sinning, of standing against God, of getting off the Straight and Narrow Path, of Not entering through the Gate to Christs Kingdom, of Not being Redeemed.

God Bless,
SBC

We're just going in circles. We should just agree to disagree, because you're just providing your opinion. I have provided you scripture which contradicts some of your opinions. But maybe you don't give as much weight as I do to scripture.

 

[SBC]

We're just going in circles. We should just agree to disagree, because you're just providing your opinion. I have provided you scripture which contradicts some of your opinions. But maybe you don't give as much weight as I do to scripture.

Ditto

God Bless
SBC

 

[omega2xx]

Not at all, I provided what is representative of the entire NT.

What is your point with Mark 16:16? I agree that he who believes and is baptized is saved. If you just believe, or you are just baptized, then you are not saved.

When one believes, they have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, Jesus' baptism, and they are saved. Water baptism is our public testimony to others that we have given our life to Jesus and He has washed us clean four our sins.

 

[Brokenhill]

When one believes, they have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, Jesus' baptism, and they are saved. Water baptism is our public testimony to others that we have given our life to Jesus and He has washed us clean four our sins.

According to Acts 2:38, we get the Holy Spirit at the point of water baptism, after we have repented. The blood of Jesus is applied at baptism. It's not that the water forgives sins--that's just our way of "calling on the name of the Lord" or accepting that gift of grace of Christ's blood.

 

[omega2xx]

According to Acts 2:38, we get the Holy Spirit at the point of water baptism, after we have repented. The blood of Jesus is applied at baptism. It's not that the water forgives sins--that's just our way of "calling on the name of the Lord" or accepting that gift of grace of Christ's blood.

First of all only believers repent. Non-believers see no need to.

We get the Holy Spirit the moment we believe the gospel of our salvation (Eph 1:13).

Water baptism come after the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus' baptism first, then man's. Water baptism is is the believers public testimony that they have accepted Jesus as their Savior and He has changed their life.

Man's baptism without Jesus' baptism is of no value.

One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM. Eph 4:5

 

[Brokenhill]

First of all only believers repent. Non-believers see no need to.

We get the Holy Spirit the moment we believe the gospel of our salvation (Eph 1:13).

Water baptism come after the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus' baptism first, then man's. Water baptism is is the believers public testimony that they have accepted Jesus as their Savior and He has changed their life.

Man's baptism without Jesus' baptism is of no value.

One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM. Eph 4:5

Regardless of when exactly one receives the HS, baptism in water is a necessary part of embracing Christ. And all of the cases in the NT of baptism come ASAP after believing in the Gospel. People should not wait, like how some churches have special baptism services. It's a serious thing and should not be postponed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

after we have repented.

Thank you for posting,
a lot of people never repent , not before immersion, not during immersion, and not after immersion.
And not if they never get immersed.

That has led to 2000 years of confusion and misled and disorientated (to be most polite) 'believers'.

Perhaps some or many multitudes who go on judgment day and find out they didn't make it, and it's too late, because they did not DO GOD'S WORD, but were "HEARERS ONLY". etc et al.

 

[omega2xx]

Regardless of when exactly one receives the HS, baptism in water is a necessary part of embracing Christ. And all of the cases in the NT of baptism come ASAP after believing in the Gospel. [/QUOTE

Now think about what you just wrote, which is true---water baptism came AFTER BELIEVING. If someone has never accepted Jesus as savior, does a water baptism save them?

People should not wait, like how some churches have special baptism services. It's a serious thing and should not be postponed.

If it does not save, it is not critical to do it. However, water baptism is important. Water baptism is a public declaration that the person is now accepted Jesus as Savior.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit comes when we believe the gospel and that is before any water is applied.

One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM.

The ONE BAPTISM that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jophn's baptism, man's baptism, is for repentance. Non-believers do not repent, The see no need to. Only Christians feel the need to repent.