Millennial Considerations

[BABerean2]

The question begging for an answer, whom is being meant by Israel in this particular context?

Who was Peter addressing on the Day of Pentecost?


Act 2:22　 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:　


Act 2:36　 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(He is now both Lord (King) and Messiah of Israel. Present tense.)
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.　
Act 2:41　 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.　



The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

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[DavidPT]

Who was Peter addressing on the Day of Pentecost?


Act 2:22　 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:　


Act 2:36　 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(He is now both Lord (King) and Messiah of Israel. Present tense.)
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.　
Act 2:41　 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.　



The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

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Even though I agree with much of what you submitted here, maybe not all, but most of it anyway, I still think it matters in what sense the disciples were meaning Israel in Acts 1. That's not to say that Israel would be restored to unbelieving ethnic Israel, but why can't it be meaning restored to believing ethnic Israel, without it also involving the church?

 

[Stephen Mendes]

I have explained the proper meaning of Matthew 21:43..... but nobody has bothered to read or acknowledge my reply ...... should I have put it in GIGANTIC RED LETTERS like BABerean2 ? ..... no matter how big or what color I use...... would make no difference ...... because many on here are not open to the TRUTH..... it is now clear to me that such persons do not wish to discuss any of the scriptures I have quoted and do not wish to hear the proper meaning of the ones that they are misusing to push error.

Ironic... in the same state as the Jews that they claim to have 'replaced'..... having shut the eyes and stopped the ears ...... lest they should actually see and hear the Word of God ...... and realize what it is actually saying.

Under a strong delusion..... and become wise in their own conceits..... it is really pointless to continue further.

So anyone who reads my posts and is interested in the TRUTH can follow me on my Blog.

Stephen's Bible Insights

Where time would be better spent expounding, explaining and enlightening anyone willing to read it.

Best wishes,
Stephen Mendes

 

[Truth7t7]

Even though I agree with much of what you submitted here, maybe not all, but most of it anyway, I still think it matters in what sense the disciples were meaning Israel in Acts 1. That's not to say that Israel would be restored to unbelieving ethnic Israel, but why can't it be meaning restored to believing ethnic Israel, without it also involving the church?

Dave throw the towel in, how much more does one need?

 

[Truth7t7]

I have explained the proper meaning of Matthew 21:43..... but nobody has bothered to read or acknowledge my reply ...... should I have put it in GIGANTIC RED LETTERS like BABerean2 ? ..... no matter how big or what color I use...... would make no difference ...... because many on here are not open to the TRUTH..... it is now clear to me that such persons do not wish to discuss any of the scriptures I have quoted and do not wish to hear the proper meaning of the ones that they are misusing to push error.

Ironic... in the same state as the Jews that they claim to have 'replaced'..... having shut the eyes and stopped the ears ...... lest they should actually see and hear the Word of God ...... and realize what it is actually saying.

Under a strong delusion..... and become wise in their own conceits..... it is really pointless to continue further.

So anyone who reads my posts and is interested in the TRUTH can follow me on my Blog.

Stephen's Bible Insights

Where time would be better spent expounding, explaining and enlightening anyone willing to read it.

Best wishes,
Stephen Mendes

I read all your posting, no insights, much sarcasm though, in false claims of "Antisemitism", because God fearing christians are following the plain and simple scripture that teaches?

Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed!

Not Replacement Theology, Its Inheritance Theology.

 

[BABerean2]

but why can't it be meaning restored to believing ethnic Israel, without it also involving the church?

Rom 9:6　 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:　


Rom 9:8　 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.　


Rom 9:27　 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:　


God dealt with a race of people as Israel under the Old Covenant.
This was necessary to achieve Matthew 1:1.

God deals with individuals from all racial groups under the New Covenant.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain forest, and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the middle east.
They both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

Nobody comes to salvation outside of the Church during a future time period.

.

 

[Stephen Mendes]

You love to quote from Romans ?

Well it is the SAME man, PAUL, in the SAME book who says:

"Brethren, I do NOT want you to be IGNORANT..... blindness in part has happened to Israel.... until the full number of Gentiles has come in...... and so, ALL ISRAEL shall be saved..... for it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." (Romans 11:25 , Romans 11:26 )

So EXPLAIN THIS according to your perverted doctrine..... or else..... find SOME WAY to RECONCILE the book of Romans with itself.

or perhaps you believe that PAUL was a babbling idiot ?

That he would say one thing in one verse ...... and then completely contradict himself a few verses later ?

If you all REFUSE to dig deeper into the WORD .... to discover what it REALLY means..... then ....

You are then fulfilling Romans 11:18

and you are in fact, boasting yourselves against the 'natural branches' and FULFILLING exactly what Romans 11:18 says NOT to do.

 

[BABerean2]

You love to quote from Romans ?

Well it is the SAME man, PAUL, in the SAME book who says:

"Brethren, I do NOT want you to be IGNORANT..... blindness in part has happened to Israel.... until the full number of Gentiles has come in...... and so, ALL ISRAEL shall be saved..... for it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." (Romans 11:25 , Romans 11:26 )

So EXPLAIN THIS according to your perverted doctrine..... or else..... find SOME WAY to RECONCILE the book of Romans with itself.

or perhaps you believe that PAUL was a babbling idiot ?

That he would say one thing in one verse ...... and then completely contradict himself a few verses later ?

If you all REFUSE to dig deeper into the WORD .... to discover what it REALLY means..... then ....

You are then fulfilling Romans 11:18

and you are in fact, boasting yourselves against the 'natural branches' and FULFILLING exactly what Romans 11:18 says NOT to do.

Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about the events of 70 AD.
At the end of the verse we have the times of the Gentiles.
In Luke 21:25-28 we find the future Second Coming of Christ.
Therefore, we have the Second Coming of Christ when the times of the Gentiles comes to an end.

Paul was clearly not an idiot, because what he said agrees with the rest of God's Word.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (See Revelation 6:12-13)
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Blindness also occurs when we get upset with others who do not agree with our Bible doctrine.

My wife and I have supported ministries like "Word of Messiah", because we want the Jewish people who have not heard the Gospel to be grafted back into the Olive Tree Church, now.
The time of their salvation is now, instead of later.

I love you, Brother.

.

 

[Stephen Mendes]

BABerean2,

I agree with what you say in your last post about Luke chapter 21.....

however, I don't see how this reconciles your earlier Romans chap. 9 quotations with Romans 11:25 - 26

...or how it leads on to an amillennialist position...

It is a good thing that you support Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah ministries...... because you are correct that Jews currently living need to hear the Gospel and accept Jesus otherwise they individually will be lost.... but you should realize that many Gentiles do not understand Jews..... and this is why all they succeed in doing with their 'witnessing' is increasing Jewish animosity to our Messiah..... which is counter-productive.

I can tell you that when a Jew finally does recognize Messiah it is a very emotional experience.

Nothing in this 'new' conversation we are now having seems to relate to our original topic Millennium ..... or the spin-off doctrine that Amillennialists hold that the Church totally replaces the national Israel and God has no further use for the Jewish race ...... which is not Biblical ...... it is not supported by either the Old or New Testament..... so I hope that is not the doctrine that Jews for Jesus or Word of Messiah are going around with.... because if it is, they will have an even harder time trying to reach Jews whether they are secular or devout.

 

[Truth7t7]

You love to quote from Romans ?

Well it is the SAME man, PAUL, in the SAME book who says:

"Brethren, I do NOT want you to be IGNORANT..... blindness in part has happened to Israel.... until the full number of Gentiles has come in...... and so, ALL ISRAEL shall be saved..... for it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." (Romans 11:25 , Romans 11:26 )

So EXPLAIN THIS according to your perverted doctrine..... or else..... find SOME WAY to RECONCILE the book of Romans with itself.

or perhaps you believe that PAUL was a babbling idiot ?

That he would say one thing in one verse ...... and then completely contradict himself a few verses later ?

If you all REFUSE to dig deeper into the WORD .... to discover what it REALLY means..... then ....

You are then fulfilling Romans 11:18

and you are in fact, boasting yourselves against the 'natural branches' and FULFILLING exactly what Romans 11:18 says NOT to do.

"Your Perverted Doctrine"?

"Perhaps You Believe Paul Was A Babbling Idiot"?

Your not talking to 3rd graders Steve, and your not the teacher.

Tone It Down Cowboy!

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

 

[Truth7t7]

Rom 9:6　 Not as thoug the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:　


Rom 9:8　 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.　


Rom 9:27　 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:　


God dealt with a race of people as Israel under the Old Covenant.
This was necessary to achieve Matthew 1:1.

God deals with individuals from all racial groups under the New Covenant.

There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain forest, and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the middle east.
They both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

Nobody comes to salvation outside of the Church during a future time period.

.

Barean appreciate your posting in providing scriptural truth regarding "Israel The Church", I Agree 100%

Amen!

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

 

[BABerean2]

BABerean2,

I agree with what you say in your last post about Luke chapter 21.....

however, I don't see how this reconciles your earlier Romans chap. 9 quotations with Romans 11:25 - 26

...or how it leads on to an amillennialist position...

It is a good thing that you support Jews for Jesus and Word of Messiah ministries...... because you are correct that Jews currently living need to hear the Gospel and accept Jesus otherwise they individually will be lost.... but you should realize that many Gentiles do not understand Jews..... and this is why all they succeed in doing with their 'witnessing' is increasing Jewish animosity to our Messiah..... which is counter-productive.

I can tell you that when a Jew finally does recognize Messiah it is a very emotional experience.

Nothing in this 'new' conversation we are now having seems to relate to our original topic Millennium ..... or the spin-off doctrine that Amillennialists hold that the Church totally replaces the national Israel and God has no further use for the Jewish race ...... which is not Biblical ...... it is not supported by either the Old or New Testament..... so I hope that is not the doctrine that Jews for Jesus or Word of Messiah are going around with.... because if it is, they will have an even harder time trying to reach Jews whether they are secular or devout.

This Jewish American found the promise of the New Covenant made to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 of his Hebrew scriptures.

How many times have we seen this truth presented on Christian television?

The time for taking the Gospel to the Jewish people is now, instead of the future.

This man is now our Brother in Christ.
This video was produced by "One For Israel", which is a Bible College located in central Israel. It is made up of students from both Jewish and Arab backgrounds.

.

 

[Stephen Mendes]

Nowhere in anything I have written did I ever say (or even imply) that anybody could be saved apart from the plan of salvation..... the same way thru Jesus Christ for everybody.... whether Jew of Gentile.

I have agreed that the nation of Israel has been temporarily set aside during this time period of Grace (until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in). That is in the scripture that I have been quoting.

At the Second coming of Jesus Christ (probably we will all be dead by then so it does not really concern us directly) the Jewish remnant that are currently living at that time will have a 'salvation experience'.... they cannot 'be saved' right now because they have not even been born yet.... and in any case, 'we' will not be the ones to effect their salvation..... I have already agreed with BABerean that we should be trying to reach the Jewish people living right now for Jesus Christ..... because if they die without receiving Christ they are going to a lost eternity.

Anyway..... I would say it is pointless going on and on about whether there will be a Millennium or not..... because it is unlikely that we will live through the time of 'Jacob's trouble' (the Great Tribulation)..... and besides, we really do not know how far off that is anyway...... so 'we' will not even be on earth at that time..... we will either have been raptured (I guess nobody 'believes' rapture either ?) or been killed or died of natural causes.

The whole discussion about whether there will be a Millennium or not would be of no significance to us personally at all.... if it were not for the fact of the ripple effect of incorrect scriptural exegesis ...... which results in other errors that do affect the Church right now (in this time period) ...... the so called "reformed, liberal approach to theology" which results in all sorts of other errors..... and as many interpretations as there are people doing the interpreting.... this Paul and the other Apostles predicted would happen.

If there in nobody in this entire forum that is 'open minded' about Tribulation ..... Millennium ...... Rapture..... what's the point of me continuing to post ?..... you are not going to convince me and I certainly am not going to convince you.

I am a lecturer at a University..... a teacher..... that is what I do for a living..... I teach people stuff..... so unless I have students..... what's the point ?

I have spent my lifetime reading, researching, analyzing, comparing...... there is little you could tell me that I am not already aware of ...... I know the various 'viewpoints' ...... I have watched the Youtube videos.... I stay abreast of what happens in 'christendom' ..... etc.etc.

So the only thing that I don't know is all the various individual 'beliefs' that each one of you holds..... although I witness some of you trying to do what I am also doing ...... convince each other of 'your' point of view....

Maybe nobody in here before has stated all this so bluntly..... but if my observations are incorrect..... let's hear it from whoever wishes to respond ?

I know my words may 'appear' harsh to some..... but I am not in any way 'upset' with anybody in here or anywhere else..... nor will anything you say 'ruffle my feathers'...... you are all entitled to your own beliefs as I am to mine and doubtless you have reasons for what you believe as I also do for what I believe... getting upset with students doesn't do either me or them any good whatsoever.... I try again and again from a different angle perhaps..... and if they never get it.... we both move on with our lives....

The continual posting may be good for the forum but it takes time..... all we have is time..... I need to be using my time wisely..... don't know bout you.

 

[BABerean2]

Nowhere in anything I have written did I ever say (or even imply) that anybody could be saved apart from the plan of salvation..... the same way thru Jesus Christ for everybody.... whether Jew of Gentile.

I have agreed that the nation of Israel has been temporarily set aside during this time period of Grace (until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in). That is in the scripture that I have been quoting.

At the Second coming of Jesus Christ (probably we will all be dead by then so it does not really concern us directly) the Jewish remnant that are currently living at that time will have a 'salvation experience'.... they cannot 'be saved' right now because they have not even been born yet (duh !)..... and in any case, 'we' will not be the ones to effect their salvation..... I have already agreed with BABerean that we should be trying to reach the Jewish people living right now for Jesus Christ..... because if they die without receiving Christ they are going to a lost eternity.

Anyway..... I would say it is pointless going on and on about whether there will be a Millennium or not..... because it is unlikely that we will live through the time of 'Jacob's trouble' (the Great Tribulation)..... and besides, we really do not know how far off that is anyway...... so 'we' will not even be on earth at that time.

The whole discussion about whether there will be a Millennium or not would be of no significance to us personally at all.... if it were not for the fact of the ripple effect of incorrect scriptural exegesis ...... which results in other errors that do affect the Church right now (in this time period) ...... the so called "reformed, liberal approach to theology" which results in all sorts of other doctrines of demons...... and as many interpretations as there are people doing the interpreting.... this Paul and the other Apostles predicted would happen.

If there in nobody in this entire forum that is 'open minded' about Tribulation ..... Millennium ...... Rapture..... what's the point of me wasting my time in here ?..... you are not going to convince me and I certainly am not going to convince you.

I can certainly find more profitable things to do with my time than continue to argue with closed-minded people (like myself) and of a different viewpoint.

I am a lecturer at a University..... a teacher..... that is what I do for a living..... I teach people stuff..... so unless I have students..... what's the point ?

I have spent my lifetime reading, researching, analyzing, comparing...... there is little you could tell me that I am not already aware of ...... I know the various 'viewpoints' ...... I have watched the Youtube videos.... I stay abreast of what happens in 'christendom' ..... etc.etc.

So the only thing I am not certain about is all the various individual 'beliefs' that each one of you holds..... although I witness each of you trying to do what I am also doing ...... convince each other of 'your' own point of view....

Maybe nobody in here before has stated all this so bluntly..... but if my observations are incorrect..... let's hear it from whoever wishes to respond ?

I know my words may 'appear' harsh to some..... but I am not in any way 'upset' with anybody in here or anywhere else..... nor will anything you say 'ruffle my feathers'...... getting upset with students doesn't do either me or them any good whatsoever.... I try again and again from a different angle perhaps..... and if they never get it.... we both move on with our lives.... no hard feelings.

I am a retired teacher.

The period of Grace cannot end, since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Therefore, the age of "Grace" cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Based on Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles ends at the Second Coming of Christ.


Hopefully, we can all learn from each other.
I have learned a great deal from others who were here, at one time or another.

Someone corrected me on this forum today, and I had to accept it and thank them because I was wrong.

.

 

[Marilyn C]

You might try reading Romans 9:6-8, this will help you better understand the Church is the Israel of God, Children of the promised seed.

"The children of the flesh", Jew/Ethnic Israel "These are not the children of God"

The scripture is plain and simple, National Ethnic Israel has been inherited by the Church, who is the Apple of the Lords eye.

Hi Truth7t7,

`For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.` (Rom. 9: 6)

We see here that not all, but obviously some (as Heb.11 shows us) are children of the PROMISE. That is the key word, the promise, which we know is the Lord.

And we, the Body of Christ has certainly not taken their inheritance as Heb. 11 clearly tells us.

`And these (OT saints of the promise), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us....`(Heb. 11: 39 & 40)

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

For Marilyn..... patience.... I will get to everything in due course..... I am supervising exams at the University where I teach..... and it's a lot of work.... so not enough time to say all the things that it's on my heart to say.

To all the posters on here..... have a blessed day !

That`s fine Stephen, as I`ve been a teacher in my time and I see today there is even a greater work load. So only when you have time to put into the answer bro. Or start a new thread on it in the future.

Marilyn.

 

[Stephen Mendes]

That's all quite OK ...... BABerean2...... the Millennium cannot occur till AFTER the second coming of Christ ..... so I really don't understand what is the relevance of your scriptures to my posting.

If anything they support my position.

 

[Stephen Mendes]

I am still waiting to hear somebody who believes that there will be no millennium (amillennialist)...... explain to me:

Isaiah 2:3
Isaiah 42:4
Isaiah 61:5 Isaiah 61:6
Zechariah 8:23
Zechariah 14:16
Habakkuk 2:14

Surely you have an explanation for these verses...... they are in your Bible ..... do you simply ignore them as if they were not there ?

I would love to hear what you think they mean...... and unless all of you are amillennialists ...... there are probably others reading our thread that would like to know what they mean also.

 

[BABerean2]

That's all quite OK ...... BABerean2...... the Millennium cannot occur till AFTER the second coming of Christ ..... so I really don't understand what is the relevance of your scriptures to my posting.

If anything they support my position.

The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15.

The "nations" and "wrath" and "the time of the judgment of the dead" are found right after in Revelation 11:18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead, without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

How does the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18 fit into your viewpoint of Revelation chapter 20?


We also have the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew chapter 25 at Christ's Second Coming.
How does that fit into your viewpoint of Revelation chapter 20?


In 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 Paul says that Christ returns in "flaming fire".

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?


Below we find that Christ judges both the alive and the dead at His return.
How does that fit into your viewpoint of Revelation chapter 20?


2Ti 4:1　 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;　(See Revelation 11:15.)


When you see the word "earth" you think of this rotten, sin-cursed world, instead of the New Earth.

When you see the word "Jerusalem", you think of the city of bondage from Galatians chapter 4, instead of the New Jerusalem which is above, as found in Hebrews 11:16.

.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hi Truth7For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.` (Rom. 9: 6)

We see here that not all, but obviously some (as Heb.11 shows us) are children of the PROMISE. That is the key word, the promise, which we know is the Lord.

And we, the Body of Christ has certainly not taken their inheritance as Heb. 11 clearly tells us.

`And these (OT saints of the promise), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us....`(Heb. 11: 39 & 40)

Marilyn.

Hebrews 11 shows the remnant "Elect" church, those whom God Foreknew and were chosen.

Appears you disregard the remnant "Church"and want to make two different groups of people saved by grace?

Those that receive Jesus Christ have inherited the promises and covenants, they are children of the promised seed.