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LastSeven

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just like the Jews and the nation of Israel (that so many in here seem to hate).
I haven't seen any hatred towards Israel or the Jews. Some of us undoubtedly hate the lies that we've been told, and hate the fact that so many Christians still don't truly understand the gospel, but hatred against the Jews and the nation of Israel? Either quote said hatred or retract your comment and stop misrepresenting people who disagree with you.

certain people incited me to it with their postings
I don't get it. Certain people incited you to rant against evil? Are you implying that these same certain people are the evil you're ranting against?

I am not seeing it in some of these postings..... only a haughty attitude against and concerning Israel
Sigh. Are you even trying to understand? I (and others) do not have a "haughty attitude against Israel".

I simply don't believe that nation of anti-Christs in the middle east has a special place in God's heart, as you seem to think. You may think that's a crazy position to take, but it's not "against" Israel. It's only against the lie that you perpetuate. The lie that circumcision means anything, and that all who are descended from Abraham are Israel, and that the promises were made to those same descendants, and that the kingdom of God was not taken away from them even though Jesus said it was.

My position is against that lie, not against the people who call themselves Israelites but are not. They don't know any better, but you should. You've read the New Testament.
 
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Marilyn C

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Do you want me to list the promises? How about just a few examples: Abraham was promised that his seed (Christ) would become a multitude of nations, and that he would bless those who bless Him (Christ) and curse those who curse Him (Christ), and that his (Christ's) throne would be established forever.

Our inheritance is eternal life, and the new heaven and new earth. Matthew 19:29, Revelation 21:7. God's inheritance is his people. Deuteronomy 32:9.

Hi LastSeven,

You see in your comment that you included Christ`s throne, and as this topic is the millennium I think it is very relevant to ask another where that throne is?

Hope that is clearer, bro. Marilyn.
 
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Truth7t7

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Hi LastSeven,

You may like to read what I wrote to Davy as it explains what I mean regarding the nation of Israel and the Body of Christ and their eternal inheritances in Christ.

regards, Marilyn.
You might try reading Romans 9:6-8, this will help you better understand the Church is the Israel of God, Children of the promised seed.

"The children of the flesh", Jew/Ethnic Israel "These are not the children of God"

The scripture is plain and simple, National Ethnic Israel has been inherited by the Church, who is the Apple of the Lords eye.
 
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Davy

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Hi Davy,

Yes I do believe God`s word that we will be kingpriests, (as I wrote earlier) however I don`t believe that Israel was promised that.

Marilyn.

Israel is definitely part of that, simply because of God having scattered all 12 tribes and many of them were scattered to the west and helped form the western Christian nations.
 
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Davy

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Hi Davy,

You have been doing your homework! Did appreciate and believe a lot of what you say but not when you moved on to the Gentile nations. As to the blessings, yes Reuben was to have the 3 blessings but he sinned, so they passed on to -

1. Birthright - Joseph.
2. Priesthood - Levi.
3. Kingdom (rule) - Judah.

And we know that the Lord is the heir to all three.

Marilyn.

Gen.49 is Jacob telling his 12 sons who would become the 12 tribes of Israel what would befall them in the last days. That means all 12 tribes in the last days, though scattered among the nations, are still manifest. There are two Israels technically just as the Gen.35 prophecy declared to Jacob's seed becoming "a nation, and a company of nations" (i.e., the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim per Gen.48, which means Israelite nations, plural).

If you want to simply bypass the subject of the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations", and that Jacob's new name Israel was to be named upon the lads per that also, then fine.
 
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Davy

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Hi LastSeven,

You see in your comment that you included Christ`s throne, and as this topic is the millennium I think it is very relevant to ask another where that throne is?

Hope that is clearer, bro. Marilyn.

It was moved to the Christian west, where it has been ever since the Matthew 21 prophecy was fulfilled in Christ about the kingdom being taken away from the unbelieving Jews and given to another nation that would bear its fruit.

Genesis 49:10 proclaims that one of Judah would keep the royal sceptre all the way to Shiloh's (Jesus) coming, and then it would be handed to Him. God promised David there would never fail a man to sit upon his throne, which means to all generations on earth (2 Sam.7).

When the king of Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, and took Zedekiah king of Judah of the house of David captive to Babylon where he died, all his son heirs were killed by the king of Babylon also. However, per the Book of Jeremiah, he was the guardian over the king's daughters which survived. Jeremiah and the king's daughters wind up in Taphenes, Egypt and then drop out of Bible history. Yet God said He chose Jeremiah also "to build, and to plant":

Jer 1:10
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

KJV

The first part was the destruction of Jerusalem by the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar. But that "to build, and to plant" part is just the opposite idea, and more of that prophecy is written elsewhere in God's Word, but in a parable. That parable I will not discuss here.
 
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Stephen Mendes

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Hello LastSeven,

I am guilty of using rather 'emotionally charged' language so I apologize for that.

'I simply don't believe that nation of anti-Christs in the middle east has a special place in God's heart, as you seem to think. ' ...... not just me..... most of 'fundamentalist' Christians ..... and many learned Biblical scholars have come to the same conclusion.

'You may think that's a crazy position to take, but it's not "against" Israel.' .... well it about as 'against' Israel from where I am sitting..... your choice of words is as bad as mine.... rather derogatory from my point of view... for such an important people in the history of our planet.... perhaps.

There are quite a few passages of scripture that indicates that they do have a 'special place' in God's heart..... but you have not attempted to explain any of them.

I think that your interpretation of Matthew 21:43 is flawed..... but it hangs on the meaning of 'Kingdom of God'.... which would lead into another discussion.

Finally, people have used many passages to support their 'position' ...... and I have used quite a few to support 'mine'.... but what is lacking is them tackling mine..... and me tackling theirs.

For the Bible to be consistent there has to be explanation of all of them in the context of BOTH viewpoints...... but is that actually the case ?

So why has nobody engaged with my passages ? ..... don't hurl others at me ..... engage with mine and explain them in the context of your doctrinal position.

For Marilyn..... patience.... I will get to everything in due course..... I am supervising exams at the University where I teach..... and it's a lot of work.... so not enough time to say all the things that it's on my heart to say.

To all the posters on here..... have a blessed day !
 
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BABerean2

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I think that your interpretation of Matthew 21:43 is flawed..... but it hangs on the meaning of 'Kingdom of God'.... which would lead into another discussion.

Mat_12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

He did cast out devils during the first century.
Therefore, some aspect of the kingdom came into being during that time.
It will be completed at His future Second Coming.


Acts 2:36 says he is now both Lord and Savior. (King and Messiah)
The king must now have a kingdom.
He won the battle for His kingdom at Calvary, by triumphing over the wicked principalities and powers of Satan.


Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 


In Matthew chapter 21 Christ reveals that the kingdom is taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone".


In 1 Peter chapter 2 Peter reveals the "holy nation" that accepted the "chief cornerstone".

We are living stones in the spiritual temple of God. Based on 1 Corinthians 3:16, each one of us has the Spirit of God inside of us.



1Pe 2:4  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 
1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 
1Pe 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 
1Pe 2:7  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 
1Pe 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 
1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 
1Pe 2:10  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 

.
 
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Stephen Mendes

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Hello again LastSeven (and any others touting 'replacement' ideas).

Let us not be so fast to conclude that Matthew 21:43
means that the Church has replaced national Israel

Who is the 'you' from whom the Kingdom will be taken ?
clearly the context shows that it was the rulers to whom He was talking..... Jesus had just told a parable about them (the Scribes and Pharisees)..... verse 45 makes it clear that they understood that He was referring to THEM specifically..... not to Israel.... and those rulers were indeed removed.

next let us focus on the 'nation' to whom it will be given
the word used is ethnos from which we derive ethnicity and race..... the church is NOT an 'ethnos'.... and it is not even a single nation.... the church is made up of lots of races from many nations.

A proper reading of Matthew 21:43 shows that the current crop of leaders were denied the Kingdom at that time.

It will be given to the nation of Israel..... AFTER they have been converted and restored to their proper Spiritual condition ..... and 'bearing the fruit of it'.

There are numerous other plain passages as I have already shown that clearly speak to the future of Israel..... restored, converted and fulfilling the function that God has called them to.

This is why I said in my last post ...... NOT to take specific verses that 'appear' to support a 'position' and build an entire doctrine around it.

It is much better to resolve a few individual verses that seem on first appearance to contradict the whole tenor of the rest of Scripture......... than to twist the entire Bible to fit just a couple of verses.

Anyone who has really read the Bible from cover to cover...... can see the thread of redemption for Israel woven into book after book after book.

Careful analysis is required therefore for the very few verses that at first look seem to tell 'a different story'
 
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Stephen Mendes

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For Marilyn.

The promises to Israel were mostly physical blessings...... wealth, health, long life ..... all the things that the flesh would want.... a wonderful earthly life if they obeyed the Commandments of God..... no wonder the prosperity preachers prefer quoting from the old testament rather than Acts and the Epistles.

The promises to the church are mostly spiritual blessings.... heavenly blessings..... eternal blessings .... but they also translate to the physical somewhat as follows...... the Apostles and early church had true JOY in the face of persecution..... they had PEACE even in the harshest physical circumstances..... the same is true today..... born-again Christians doing the Lord's work..... enjoy His presence in the form of the Holy Spirit..... and barring martyrdom or extreme physical persecution would enjoy a healthy life as well..... because medical science has shown that the peace of God and the joy of God have beneficial effects on the health of the body..... freedom from worry, fear and anxiety result in peaceful sleep and better physical well being ..... but under the dispensation of Grace our God is more concerned with character than comfort .... individual Christians may be granted riches, health or long life in the providence of God and according to His will for their station and purpose in life..... however, others may have to go through hardship, pain or even physical death but God will be with them in it (and they will find great comfort in God Himself thru it as they surrender to His will for them and His control over their lives).

The promises to Israel will certainly appear better to the flesh...... but the promises to the church are certainly better overall..... although 'carnal' christians might not see it that way.

This is far from a complete list ..... just basically an overall look at the topic.
 
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BABerean2

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There are numerous other plain passages as I have already shown that clearly speak to the future of Israel..... restored, converted and fulfilling the function that God has called them to.

The true form of "Replacement Theology" does the following...


It replaces the One Seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

It replaces the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26.

It replaces the covenant fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary, with a future covenant with the modern state of Israel, in Romans 11:27.

It replaces the Church made up of all races of people, with a Church made up of Gentiles.

It replaces two groups of Israelites, one blinded and one not, with one group of Israelites where all are "partially" blinded in Romans chapter 11.

It ignores the warnings against using genealogy in our faith in the verses below.



1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.
 
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DavidPT

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The true form of "Replacement Theology" does the following...


It replaces the One Seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

It replaces the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26.

It replaces the covenant fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary, with a future covenant with the modern state of Israel, in Romans 11:27.

It replaces the Church made up of all races of people, with a Church made up of Gentiles.

It replaces two groups of Israelites, one blinded and one not, with one group of Israelites where all are "partially" blinded in Romans chapter 11.

It ignores the warnings against using genealogy in our faith in the verses below.



1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


So who exactly do you see Israel meaning in this particular context? The church? The kingdom is in need of being restored again to the church?
 
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Stephen Mendes

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Well BABerean2 ..... it certainly appears to me that you are doing exactly what you are preaching against...
viz a viz

All false systems of interpretation are exposed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

In fact this is the 'problem' for many ...... so let's grab the bull by the horns and seek the correct interpretation for many of these 'much hurled' Scriptures ?

Serious students of the Bible will want to know the TRUTH ..... let's start shall we ?
 
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BABerean2

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Well BABerean2 ..... it certainly appears to me that you are doing exactly what you are preaching against...
viz a viz

All false systems of interpretation are exposed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

In fact this is the 'problem' for many ...... so let's grab the bull by the horns and seek the correct interpretation for many of these 'much hurled' Scriptures ?

Serious students of the Bible will want to know the TRUTH ..... let's start shall we ?


Mat 1:1  The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 


Mat 3:9  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 



Mat 21:37  But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 
Mat 21:38  But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 
Mat 21:39  And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 
Mat 21:40  When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 
Mat 21:41  They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 
Mat 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 
Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
 



Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

1Pe 2:4  To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 
1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 
1Pe 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 
1Pe 2:7  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 
1Pe 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 
1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 
1Pe 2:10  Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 



1Ti_1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



Jas 1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 
Jas 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 
Jas 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 

.
 
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DavidPT

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Mat 21:37  But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 
Mat 21:38  But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 
Mat 21:39  And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 
Mat 21:40  When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 
Mat 21:41  They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 
Mat 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 
Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
 

So which comes first then? What you posted above, or the following below?


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


IOW, is---The kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof---followed by----restoring again the kingdom to Israel? Or is this correct instead? restore again the kingdom to Israel, followed by, The kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof

If it's the former, why would----restoring again the kingdom to Israel---not be meaning---restoring the kingdom to those God had taken from them?

Take note of how Jesus replied.

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Note that Jesus never said, no, no the kingdom will never be restored again to Israel.

The question begging for an answer, whom is being meant by Israel in this particular context?
 
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Truth7t7

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So which comes first then? What you posted above, or the following below?


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


IOW, is---The kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof---followed by----restoring again the kingdom to Israel? Or is this correct instead? restore again the kingdom to Israel, followed by, The kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof

If it's the former, why would----restoring again the kingdom to Israel---not be meaning---restoring the kingdom to those God had taken from them?

Take note of how Jesus replied.

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Note that Jesus never said, no, no the kingdom will never be restored again to Israel.

The question begging for an answer, whom is being meant by Israel in this particular context?
Barean has been very clear in his presentation, the Church is the Israel of God Dave, there is no existing promises to a National Ethnic group of people, "Jews"

Romans 9:6-8, the scripture is very clear :)

They are not all Israel which are of Israel?

Two Israel are seen here, Gods Israel the Church, Children of the promised see.

Israel of the flesh, that is a worldly nation.

The children of the flesh "Are Not" the children of God.

Plain and Simple :)
 
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DavidPT

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Barean has been very clear in his presentation, the Church is the Israel of God Dave, there is no existing promises to a National Ethnic group of people, "Jews"

Romans 9:6-8, the scripture is very clear :)

They are not all Israel which are of Israel?

Two Israel are seen here, Gods Israel the Church, Children of the promised see.

Israel of the flesh, that is a worldly nation.

The children of the flesh "Are Not" the children of God.

Plain and Simple :)


I get all of that. The question is though, since it was His disciples who asked this at the time. Whom were His disciples taking Israel to be meaning? It matters whom they took Israel to be meaning, because it seems to me Jesus' reply was in regards to the Israel they were meaning. Israel was used numerous times throughout the 4 gospels as well. What did Israel typically mean in the gospels the times it was mentioned in the texts?
 
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Truth7t7

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I get all of that. The question is though, since it was His disciples who asked this at the time. Whom were His disciples taking Israel to be meaning? It matters whom they took Israel to be meaning, because it seems to me Jesus' reply was in regards to the Israel they were meaning. Israel was used numerous times throughout the gospel as well. What did Israel typically mean in the gospels the times it was mentioned in the texts?
There are two Israels seen in the bible.

Acts 1:6-7 The apostles were looking for a kingdom as previously seen in Israel.

verse 7 Jesus didn't respond with any confirmation to the question, he was well aware he was the walking kingdom of Israel.
 
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DavidPT

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There are two Israels seen in the bible.

Acts 1:6-7 The apostles were looking for a kingdom as previously seen in Israel.

verse 7 Jesus didn't respond with any confirmation to the question, he was well aware he was the walking kingdom of Israel.


Since Jesus is incapable of being misleading and being untruthful, and that He very well knew what Israel the disciples were referring to, but that if this wasn't the plan for this Israel, Jesus would have clearly and plainly told them so, yet He didn't. Why is that? Probably because that is the plan, otherwise Jesus would have been misleasding and untruthful here by not instead telling them, no, no the Israel you are meaning, the kingdom will never be restored to it.

If instead you prefer to by your interpretation make Jesus coming off as misleading and untruthful, that's on you not me.
 
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Truth7t7

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Since Jesus is incapable of being misleading and being untruthful, and that He very well knew what Israel the disciples were referring to, but that if this wasn't the plan for this Israel, Jesus would have clearly and plainly told them so, yet He didn't. Why is that? Probably because that is the plan, otherwise Jesus would have been misleasding and untruthful here by not instead telling them, no, no the Israel you are meaning, the kingdom will never be restored to it.

If instead you prefer to by your interpretation make Jesus coming off as misleading and untruthful, that's on you not me.
You try to reason your own private interpretation, not so.

Jesus witheld many things from the Apostles, this being one thing.

Acts 1:7 is a small parable if you say, he didnt disclose the fact that the kingdom wasnt going to be restored then or in the future, because he as God, knew he was the Israel and Kingdom of God.

Jesus wasnt misleading or untruthful, it wasnt time for the Apostles to know the future concerning himself being the kingdom and Israel of God.

Dave less human reasoning, more scriptural precedence.
 
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