If that's what you truly believe, I am sorry for youThis is what the Bible says. Only God is good.
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If that's what you truly believe, I am sorry for youThis is what the Bible says. Only God is good.
How do you know? The only way you could know this is if you know that the Christian God does not exist, and that requires omniscience which you don't have.If morality were defined as obedience to the Christian God's will, I would agree that morality is objective; but its not.
Well we have strong evidence that He exists and that He has communicated with us in the Bible and it teaches us that one of the main purposes of the universe is to provide "school" for spiritual growth and spiritual growth is revealed by moral decisions.ken: Do you have proof that your God created the Universe with morality in mind? Or is this just another belief based on faith?
Yes, but theistic evolution is more rational.Ed1wolf said: ↑
Atheistic evolution is an undirected process, theistic evolution is directed by God to produce humans.
belk: From our perspective both those scenarios look exactly the same.
Yes, those are called races and almost all share certain basic morals as I explained above earlier.ed: I said societies which ARE populations.
belk: The entire human race is the population unless some of us are sectioned off so evolutionary pressure creates two separate paths.
Yes and there have been separation, see above about races.ed: Actually since every individual is slightly different and evolution supposedly uses those differences to produce differential survival then yes an individual can be more highly evolved than another individual and produce children that inherit those traits and continue the process.
belk; No, that is not how it works. There would have to be a separation of populations.
But only theistic evolution is rational as stated above.ed: No, it is very different, see above.
belk: No, they would look exactly the same from our perspective
Yes, but theistic evolution is more rational.
But only theistic evolution is rational as stated above.
For a Christian the intelligence beyond humans would be God through the teachings of Jesus.What intelligence do you know of that lies beyond human view?
Absolutely true is always true regardless of context, time, human opinion and can be contrasted against subjective or relative truth which will only be true for the person or context for which the truth is being applied to.What do you mean by “absolutely true”?
Sorry about that. I guess it will depend on who the someone else is. If a human or alien then they are fallible so you cannot trust them to always be right. Christians trust in God through the teachings of Jesus and Jesus is without sin so there is no immorality in him. His example and teachings are absolutely good.I didn’t say “another human” I said someone else. Whether that someone else be God, a space alien, or a figment of imaginations.
Jesus said he was the son of God and that he is the way, the truth and the life and Jesus is infallible.How do you know the same does not apply to your God?
Jesus was God incarnate while on earth and his life while on earth is an example of a perfectly good life without sin. His moral teachings stems from his own example. I guess it comes down to a matter of trust. Either you believe what Jesus said and did or you don't.How do you know Jesus and God is infallible?
I agree but that reason and logic will only apply to the person with the POV. You can listen to the other person but if you disagree with him your logic and reason cannot apply to them because under subjective morality you would be forcing your logic and reasoning about your morals onto them.Having a different POV will not prevent someone from listening to someone else. Reason and logic will work for anybody who is reasonable and logical
A person supporting subjective morality will see someone that claims objective morality as just another subjective view. But the person supporting objective morality will see that objective morals apply despite any human views including their own views. As mentioned the position Sam Harris and other atheist take is that objective morals can be scientifically verified because they support human flourishing. he problem with atheist positions like Sam Harris's is that it is hard to support objective morals without positing a moral law giver.The same goes for believing objective morality.
As you said what has the law got to do with morals about stealing so any wrong laws are not a reflection on a moral position according to you.You have misrepresented what I said about stealing. To steal is a legal crime; but sometimes the law is wrong.
Yes this would be objectively wrong and unjustified despite the Nazis thinking it was OK. But how can you determine if its right or wrong under subjective morality. This shows the danger of subjective morality in that it allows people to push their personal moral views and then claim their view is OK even if it is wrong.When the Nazis took over countries back in the 40’s they made laws where white people could take the possessions of brown and Jewish people. If a non-white person had a cow, a white person could take it from them and it was legal to do so. If that non-white person were to take his cow back, THAT would be stealing. Now under those circumstances; do you think stealing is wrong?
Objective morality is for anyone who wants to take that position with or without God. Sam Harris's is not the only person who subscribes to this position. It is reasoned from science so it is not really Mr Harris's view but a scientifically supported position. Many people on this forum supply support for their position from the words, statements, articles, videos from other people especially from experts who can be scientifically supported.I’m not going to comment on Sam Harris because he is not here to defend himself; but it seems objective morality is for those who believe in God. I don’t believe in God.
Perhaps, but when you take the position that morality is purely a matter of opinion, those two sentences are synonymous.You speak as if right and wrong ancestrally exist. Right and wrong are only labels humans use to judge actions we see. these judgments are based on human thought; and human thoughts change. That’s why it is incorrect to say “it was right when it happened,” you should say “in his opinion it was right when it happened.”
The new information that would inform moral judgments is usually some sort of moral informatioNo; people admit they were wrong after altering their views in light of new information. To say you were wrong based on opinions you disagree with is something that happens when forced.
It'd be a bit more accurate to say they're adopting their views to some standard external to themselves, even if that standard is simply a particular cultural standard rather than a hard, objective one.True! But once they’ve done this this new standard becomes their own.
In which case all you're doing is telling me why rape is wrong for you to do. It doesn't apply to me.I would appeal to MY view of “right” in hopes of convincing you to change your mind
See, this indicates that perhaps you don't quite understand the implications of the position you're arguing for. This is a meta-ethical conversation, so we're not just talking about what people might think, but about what good and bad fundamentally are. When you propose that morality is a purely subjective notion, and that what is good and bad is purely a matter of individual perspective and opinion on a given matter, then what I said is absolutely how morality works. Your opinion is the only philosophically valid basis for judging what "right" is, and that judgment is only valid for your own actions (because it's a purely individual, subjective question); likewise, my own opinion of "right" is the only philosophically valid metric by which my actions can be judged, and ultimately I am the only one who can really make that judgment. You can judge my actions by some other standard if you want (e.g. your own thoughts of right and wrong), but to do so is completely invalid and meaningless.Are you kidding me? That’s how subjective morality works! I judge my standard of good to someone else's and sometimes I change my standard more in line with theirs, sometimes they change their standards more in line with mine; thats how we learn.
See above. Simply put, to state that what right and wrong fundamentally are is a matter of my personal opinion, while then holding me to some moral standard external to my own personal thoughts on the matter, is to be inconsistent. You either have to concede that my opinion is the ultimate authority on the morality of my actions, or you accept that I reasonably be held to some standard beyond my own opinions. You cannot do both.What is going to force me to concede that your act is moral if I don’t believe it is?
The difference is that your position on the matter ultimately leads to the conclusion that, because he thinks he is right, then he actually is right. Given that, you have no solid moral basis to, say, intervene to prevent rape.What good does that do? For you to proclaim him wrong regardless of if he agrees or not, is no different than him proclaiming himself right regardless of whether you agree or not.
Do you seriously think laws against rape have no moral component to them? Belief in the immorality of forcibly raping someone did not come after laws against it were implemented.Thats why we have laws which are objective. Laws are enforced, moral beliefs are not. You are not allowed to prevent someone from raping because it goes against your moral beliefs, you can only stop him if rape is against the law.
The problem is that if I am a reasonable person, and I use my reasoning skills to consider the ethical position you're arguing for, then I come to the conclusion that your views are ultimately only valid for you. They have no relevance to me or anyone else in determining right or wrong unless we're looking at your actions, in which case our perspective is irrelevant because you are the ultimate authority on what you think.That would only be the case if you were an unreasonable person who refuses to listen to anybody else. Most reasonable people are willing to listen and learn from others.
They use their perspective and opinion to judge, but they're usually going off some idea of right and wrong that's not just "whatever I think is right is right". Almost everybody behaves as if there's some standard external to their own opinion (even many people who wouldn't accept "objective" morality, but who would hold to cultural relativism or something like that).No; I not only judge my own behavior according to my opinion, but I also judge everybody else's behavior according to my opinion; everybody does this.
I don't believe in God, but regardless, no. The premise implicit here -- that disagreement with a given moral standard means it doesn't apply to the one who disagrees -- has not been established.No; I don’t mean the Divine command theory, I meant exactly what I said; your Gods morality only applies to himself and those like you who agree with him. His morality does not apply to me, or others who may disagree with him.
Moral realism does not require that there be a specific "who".Wrong according to who?
So a sort of consequentialism. Interesting, though slightly different from what I asked. This states that you base the moral value of your actions based on their consequences (rather than, say, intent, specifically how they affect your neighbor. It doesn't really establish how you know "helpful to my neighbor" actually is good, whether it applies to actions that have no effect at all on your neighbors, or whether that set of ethics can apply to your neighbors' actions as well as your own.Let me put it this way:
I believe morality is about the ability to understand the consequences of actions and how they effect my neighbor.
And it starts from the position that what is helpful to my neighbor is good, and what is harmful to my neighbor is bad.
This is what I mean when I said I know the difference between right and wrong/good or bad.
You are equating "real" or "objective" with "commanded by someone".Anybody who is unable to employ the above mentioned traits on his own, but must resort to a perceived outside authority to get instructions on how to behave this way is not being moral, he is only being obedient.
I haven't become a believer since my initial posts in this thread, so your condescension is misdirected.IOW If you must go to God for this, you aren’t moral; God is! You are nothing more than an immoral person who is good at following instructions. I suspect you are better than that even if you don’t realize it right now.
I know the definition of morality; and the Christian God is not mentioned in this definition. If you don’t believe me, look it up.How do you know? The only way you could know this is if you know that the Christian God does not exist, and that requires omniscience which you don't have.
Who is this "we" you are referring to? You and your Christian friends? Like I said; based on faith.Well we have strong evidence that He exists and that He has communicated with us in the Bible and it teaches us that one of the main purposes of the universe is to provide "school" for spiritual growth and spiritual growth is revealed by moral decisions.
Would it be fair to say; Objective morality is for Theists who believe in a higher power and subjective morality is for atheist who do not?Sorry about that. I guess it will depend on who the someone else is. If a human or alien then they are fallible so you cannot trust them to always be right. Christians trust in God through the teachings of Jesus and Jesus is without sin so there is no immorality in him. His example and teachings are absolutely good.
Jesus never wrote anything down, so the only thing you know about Jesus is what other people wrote about him; and half the people who wrote about him contradicted each other.Jesus said he was the son of God and that he is the way, the truth and the life and Jesus is infallible.
No; nothing is forced. You would be offering your logic and reasoning to them and it is up to them to accept it or not.I agree but that reason and logic will only apply to the person with the POV. You can listen to the other person but if you disagree with him your logic and reason cannot apply to them because under subjective morality you would be forcing your logic and reasoning about your morals onto them.
The only way that would work is if you share the same moral base. If you do not, your arguments will failTherefore this reasoning and logic would be subjective as well. It is different to use reason and logic to support objective morals which do not depend on an individuals POV. The reasons and logic will support morals beyond a human POV and stand indepnedent of any individuals POV.
Yes; but if his moral base is different than yours, this person claiming objective morality will show you that you are wrong according to his objective moral base; one that you disagree with; and you will show him he is wrong according to YOUR objective moral base, one that HE disagrees with. So at the end of the day nobody gets anywhere with your objective morality because the moral base varies from person to person.A person supporting subjective morality will see someone that claims objective morality as just another subjective view. But the person supporting objective morality will see that objective morals apply despite any human views including their own views.
I kinda looked over that video, and I don’t see how you made the leap that he was promoting objective morality. I don’t think he even mentioned objective morality. He made the point that not all moral views should be accepted by society. that is a far cry from a single moral base which is objective morality. And who are some of these philosophical academics that support objective morality?As mentioned the position Sam Harris and other atheist take is that objective morals can be scientifically verified because they support human flourishing. he problem with atheist positions like Sam Harris's is that it is hard to support objective morals without positing a moral law giver.
So the Christian position on objective morals can also be substanciated by using the same logic and reasoning as Sam Harris and company except they say that the moralss come from God rather than just in nature. Also as mentioned earlier it can be shown that all humans act like there are objective morals despite them saying their morality is subjective. Most philosophical academics support objective morality as well. So there is a pretty strong case for objective morality.
It doesn't apply to you unless you choose to apply it to you. If you are interested in the truth, perhaps you would.In which case all you're doing is telling me why rape is wrong for you to do. It doesn't apply to me.
You seem to be under the impression that under subjective morality your opinion is the only valid basis for which your actions could be judged. This is far from the truth; subjective morality doesn’t prevent others from judging your actions according to their moral base.See, this indicates that perhaps you don't quite understand the implications of the position you're arguing for. This is a meta-ethical conversation, so we're not just talking about what people might think, but about what good and bad fundamentally are. When you propose that morality is a purely subjective notion, and that what is good and bad is purely a matter of individual perspective and opinion on a given matter, then what I said is absolutely how morality works. Your opinion is the only philosophically valid basis for judging what "right" is, and that judgment is only valid for your own actions (because it's a purely individual, subjective question); likewise, my own opinion of "right" is the only philosophically valid metric by which my actions can be judged, and ultimately I am the only one who can really make that judgment.
Under Objective morality, you can judge my actions by your objective moral standard if you want, but if I disagree with your objective moral standard, your judging will also be completely invalid and meaninglessYou can judge my actions by some other standard if you want (e.g. your own thoughts of right and wrong), but to do so is completely invalid and meaningless.
No its not inconsistent, as I said before, nothing is going to stop others from judging your actions according to their morality; which is external to your own personal thoughts on the matterSee above. Simply put, to state that what right and wrong fundamentally are is a matter of my personal opinion, while then holding me to some moral standard external to my own personal thoughts on the matter, is to be inconsistent. You either have to concede that my opinion is the ultimate authority on the morality of my actions, or you accept that I reasonably be held to some standard beyond my own opinions. You cannot do both.
No it does not! It only means he BELIEVES he is right.The difference is that your position on the matter ultimately leads to the conclusion that, because he thinks he is right, then he actually is right.
Just because my moral basis is internal rather than external doesn’t mean my moral basis doesn’t exist.Given that, you have no solid moral basis to, say, intervene to prevent rape.
Objective morality is for anyone who wants to take that position with or without God. Sam Harris's is not the only person who subscribes to this position. It is reasoned from science so it is not really Mr Harris's view but a scientifically supported position.
I have said all along that His effects can be empirically observed not Him, such as the universe.I thought we dealt with this issue.
Have there been some new empirical observations to report?
According to scientists and philosophers effects have beginnings and/or change. The universe has both of these characteristics.Ed1wolf said: ↑
By using logical reasoning. Most of the scientific evidence shows that the universe is an effect, therefore it needs a cause. And according to the laws of logic that cause must be transcendent to the universe, just like the Christian God.
ken: What scientific evidence do you have that shows the Universe is an effect?
Yes it does but it just doesn't admit that the cause is God, because it would violate "Science's" commitment to the philosophy of Naturalism. So they claim it was a quantum fluctuation that caused the universe.ed: Science doesn’t make this claim, but you do so obviously you think you know something they don’t.
Actually there are ones that do make that claim. Such as Albert Einstein, Paul Davies, and Hugh Ross among others.ed:: Actually among scientists astronomers and cosmologists have the most theists. But not all of them do because they will be labeled a fundie and many of the their fellow astronomers will try to destroy their careers.
ken: The percentage of Astronomers and Cosmologists who are theists, are still much lower than the general population. And the few that are theists don’t claim their religion is backed up by science.
I have provided the evidence and you have yet to refute it.ed: God does not "live" in outer space. God is a spiritual being and can not be observed empirically just like dark matter or neutrinos. See above about how cosmologists have shown that the universe is an effect and needs a Cause.
ken: As I said before, there has never been any evidence of your God anywhere.
ed: See above how the cause of the universe must be transcendent to it, just like God. Also, personal beings exist in this universe and we know from all empirical evidence that only persons can produce the personal so the cause of the universe must be a person. Also, purposes exist in the universe and we know that only minds can produce purposes for things. Such as eyes for seeing and ears for hearing, hands for grasping and etc.
ken: All you are doing is spittin’ out a bunch of empty claims apparently backed up only by your faith. There are no scientific theories, or claims to back up anything you are claiming. Don’t get me wrong, if you wanna believe this stuff via faith; that’s fine; I ain’t trying to take that away from you! But don’t try to imply this stuff is backed up by science
Truth? How do you know the truth? If moral truth regarding my actions is determined by something other than my own thoughts, then morality might be relative, or objective, or something else, but it ain't purely individual and subjective.It doesn't apply to you unless you choose to apply it to you. If you are interested in the truth, perhaps you would.
It's relativism -- judging and assessing a given system from within the parameters and norms of that systemYou seem to be under the impression that under subjective morality your opinion is the only valid basis for which your actions could be judged.
And? They can judge of they want, it just wouldn't have the same validity.This is far from the truth; subjective morality doesn’t prevent others from judging your actions according to their moral base.
Well, sort of. If there is an objective standard, you would be objectively wrong regardless of my own judgment or whether you disagree.Under Objective morality, you can judge my actions by your objective moral standard if you want, but if I disagree with your objective moral standard, your judging will also be completely invalid and meaningless
People do so, but they also don't generally think of morality being about their own opinion. If they took your position, they would absolutely be acting contrary to the logical conclusions of their own meta ethical beliefs.No its not inconsistent, as I said before, nothing is going to stop others from judging your actions according to their morality; which is external to your own personal thoughts on the matter
If you argue that moral truths are determined subjectively, then his belief that he's right means that he is right. The two sentences become synonymous.No it does not! It only means he BELIEVES he is right.
But it does mean that for your opinion of moral truths to really have more weight or authority in judging my actions than my own opinion of moral truths, you have to appeal to something external to just our opinions of what is true.Just because my moral basis is internal rather than external doesn’t mean my moral basis doesn’t exist.
I think those who believe is a higher power or divine agent will support objective morality. I would say most atheists would support subjective morality but like I said there are some atheists who support objective morality.Would it be fair to say; Objective morality is for Theists who believe in a higher power and subjective morality is for atheist who do not?
We know from history that people like the Jewish high priests appointed by the Romans Annas and Caiaphas as well as Pontius Pilate and Herod Antipas all mention Jesus as claiming to be the Son of and that's why he was crucified. Pilot states he can find no wrong in Jesus to crucify him. The basic story of Jesus is not contradicted and most scholars say that Jesus was a real figure.Jesus never wrote anything down, so the only thing you know about Jesus is what other people wrote about him; and half the people who wrote about him contradicted each other.
As mentioned the basic story of Jesus is well supported. That Jesus was a religious figure who claimed to be the son of God, was said to performed miracles, had many good teachings and led a good life. Many people believed Jesus from the fact that from his short ministry and crucifixion and directly after his death the greatest growth of Christianity was seen which eventually became the main religion of the Roman Empire which initially tried to stop Christ and this has continued until today. It is funny as people seem to believe without question most other historical figures yet when it comes to Jesus they suddenly demand higher criteria for evidence.So how do you know the men who wrote about him were telling the truth? I’m a man; if I wrote something, you would be skeptical; so why don’t you apply the same skepticism to these men when they make claims about what Jesus said? And even if Jesus DID claim to be the son of God, how do you know HE was telling the truth? Most of the religious people of his time didn’t believe him; why do you?
What I mean by forced is that as you have acknowledged it is up to the other person to accept or reject your POV. This shows that the logic and reason you use to arrive at your own POV can only apply to you.No; nothing is forced. You would be offering your logic and reasoning to them and it is up to them to accept it or not.
An objective moral base is independent of any individuals moral base. It is more about proving that there is a set of objective morals independent of humans views and therefore needs some independent support such as being scientifically verified or it can be logically shown that all people live like they believe in a set of objective morals. In that way, a moral would be like something solid that people cannot deny like the computer we are writing this post on. It is not reliant on peoples views and the computer exists despite peoples views saying it does not.The only way that would work is if you share the same moral base. If you do not, your arguments will fail.
Objective morality is similar to absolute truth. There cannot be more than one absolute truth as this is contradictory. To establish objective morality as the truth certain things need to be established. It is a bit like scientifically verifying something. So two people cannot be right as far as objective moral truths are concerned. I have posted some support for this such as with Sam Harris's method of establishing objective morality through logic and science.Yes; but if his moral base is different than yours, this person claiming objective morality will show you that you are wrong according to his objective moral base; one that you disagree with; and you will show him he is wrong according to YOUR objective moral base, one that HE disagrees with. So at the end of the day, nobody gets anywhere with your objective morality because the moral base varies from person to person.
The video is only part of a longer video so you would need to do some investigating to fully understand Mr Harris's position. He goes into detail to support his position and you do not have to mention objective morality to support there being certain morals that stand no matter what in helping humans flourish which can be scientifically supported. He has actually written a book on the subject called "The Moral Landscape" and has been attacked by his allies who normally side with him when he is having a go at religion so Sam Harris's position on morality is well known.I kinda looked over that video, and I don’t see how you made the leap that he was promoting objective morality. I don’t think he even mentioned objective morality. He made the point that not all moral views should be accepted by society. that is a far cry from a single moral base which is objective morality. And who are some of these philosophical academics that support objective morality?
There are no scientific theories that address prior to the singularity that expanded to become the Universe as we know it, because they don’t know what happened prior to it. There may be some scientists who speculate or guess, but thats it; they are just speculations and guesses; thus far nobody knows what happened prior to the singularity.According to scientists and philosophers effects have beginnings and/or change. The universe has both of these characteristics.
Oh so now there is a conspiracy among all scientists world wide to stifle Christian truths? Yeah; right! Christians are the richest and most powerful people on earth. Any scientist who can find scientific evidence to back up any Christian claims would be world famous and rich beyond measure. And you expect me to believe all scientists world wide are willing to turn down fame and fortune just to keep the conspiracy going? (LOL)Yes it does but it just doesn't admit that the cause is God, because it would violate "Science's" commitment to the philosophy of Naturalism. So they claim it was a quantum fluctuation that caused the universe.
Really? What Christian claims do these men claim are backed up by scientific theory?Actually there are ones that do make that claim. Such as Albert Einstein, Paul Davies, and Hugh Ross among others.
↑I have provided the evidence and you have yet to refute it.
And yet we hear so often about how there is scientific support for beneficial mutations as opposed to negative and deleterous ones. People like Sam Harris are supporting the idea that there are certain moral positions that promote human flourishing and can be supported through scientific reasoning. I think the good he is talking about is similar to what helps people survive and similar to the science of evolution. It is more about behavioral science.Nonsense. Science can't say anything about morality because it's not equipped to. It's not what it does. Science can say for example that forcing someone to drink bleach will cause suffering to that person in specific ways, but it can't say whether forcing someone to drink bleach is "good" or "bad".
So if someone says it is OK to take your car for a joy ride because it is their moral view that material posessions should be shared you would regard this statement as being similar to someone saying they think chocolate is good.Since I believe moral statements to be nothing more than expressions of preference, the idea of "objective morality" makes as much sense as saying it's objectively true that chocolate is good.
Right. Somehow I misread your post. Sorry about that.I have said all along that His effects can be empirically observed not Him, such as the universe.