It was God's Will and purpose that Adam would sin.

PeaceJoyLove

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Well, my belief is that Satan did not have free reign on Job because Job was God's and Job chose to follow God.

God ordained Satan power when He cast him down to earth and gave him some free reign. God didn't remove his power, only put limits on what he could and could not do.
God removed the hedge of protection from Job. Jesus was led by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Jesus even said to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan..." based upon what Peter had said, adding "For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men"...

Job reasoned with God and God did find something in him and Job repented. The serpent in the garden is a very necessary thing as part of the plan/purpose God purposed in Himself from the beginning.
 
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ToBeLoved

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God removed the hedge of protection from Job. Jesus was led by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Jesus even said to Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan..." based upon what Peter had said, adding "For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men"...

Job reasoned with God and God did find something in him and Job repented. The serpent in the garden is a very necessary thing as part of the plan/purpose God purposed in Himself from the beginning.
That does not seem to be the question was the serpent in the garden necessary.

The question is if God planned the fall to sin. For that to be true, then God created mankind to be separated
From Him.

Just because the serpent was in the garden doesn’t mean that God willed the fall.
 
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Petros2015

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Either:
1. Man is free to choose to do evil, OR
2. Man is forced to do evil.
Is there any other option?

it depends on how you define evil. if evil is separation from God, it can become a one-way street. adam and eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. before, they knew only good and God's presence (good). after, they knew separation (evil). but the evilest thing about evil is that apart from salvation, there is no going back. what is left to choose from are shades of grey, and the darker the shades are chosen, the less freedom of choice you have. evil ripens into further darkness and separation over time. once chosen, it can not rescue itself. that's the true nature of evil, imho. evil is not an action or a sin or the act of making a particular moral choice one way or another - it is a state of being that moves further away from God, trying to make itself God. its nature is to actively resist redemption in many cases (in mine at least). i don't think the serpent lied much when he said 'you will be like God' - he just didn't tell the whole story, that the end of us trying in a state of separation from the true God to play the role ourselves is further separation, self centeredness and all the misery and death and sin of the human race. God wasn't lying either when He said, in the day you eat of it, you will surely die. For to eat of it meant separation from Him, the author of eternal Life.

At the end of this, all creation will know what it is to be separated from God. they will have seen it played out till the end. they will see God's love and power and sacrifice to bring us back.

And i think they'll also say "let's not do this again" ;)

forgive the lack of caps, i dislocated my shoulder and typing with one hand today :)
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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That does not seem to be the question was the serpent in the garden necessary.

The question is if God planned the fall to sin. For that to be true, then God created mankind to be separated
From Him.

Just because the serpent was in the garden doesn’t mean that God willed the fall.

"Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world...slain before the foundation of the world"

Even before God spoke the first word calling the light out of the darkness..."And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."...is a picture of our soul's journey/process taking place within...internal spiritual truth of who we have always been...when we can see/perceive out of the darkness....

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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The creature (us) all things) here are some other verses to support god causing mans fall.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Notice time frame in blue

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.



MSG) 8-21 That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.



(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.



(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have
 
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ToBeLoved

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"Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world...slain before the foundation of the world"

Even before God spoke the first word calling the light out of the darkness..."And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."...is a picture of our soul's journey/process taking place within...internal spiritual truth of who we have always been...when we can see/perceive out of the darkness....

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
And God knows no time.

So what does that all mean?

God also says He knew us before we were formed.

So with God being Imniscient and outside of earthly time how can God be held to time that is part of the human experience
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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it depends on how you define evil. if evil is separation from God, it can become a one-way street. adam and eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. before, they knew only good and God's presence (good). after, they knew separation (evil). but the evilest thing about evil is that apart from salvation, there is no going back. what is left to choose from are shades of grey, and the darker the shades are chosen, the less freedom of choice you have. evil ripens into further darkness and separation over time. once chosen, it can not rescue itself. that's the true nature of evil, imho. evil is not an action or a sin or the act of making a particular moral choice one way or another - it is a state of being that moves further away from God, trying to make itself God. its nature is to actively resist redemption in many cases (in mine at least). i don't think the serpent lied much when he said 'you will be like God' - he just didn't tell the whole story, that the end of us trying in a state of separation from the true God to play the role ourselves is further separation, self centeredness and all the misery and death and sin of the human race. God wasn't lying either when He said, in the day you eat of it, you will surely die. For to eat of it meant separation from Him, the author of eternal Life.

At the end of this, all creation will know what it is to be separated from God. they will have seen it played out till the end. they will see God's love and power and sacrifice to bring us back.

And i think they'll also say "let's not do this again" ;)

forgive the lack of caps, i dislocated my shoulder and typing with one hand today :)
That is what Adams death is. Not his physical death but His spiritual death. You see Adam started to die from the realm of God the moment of the sin spiritually. He lived to be 930 years old and what better example of spiritual death than physical death to us humans. A dead man cannot see, hear, touch, feel etc because he is dead. The same with a spiritually dead man when it comes to the realm of God. Ephesians 2 called it dead in trust passes and sin. That is why the second death will kill the first death.

Let us notice a few of God's firsts and seconds. God's seconds are always better than His firsts which He gives to mankind. Meditate deeply upon these: Cain - Able; Cain's sacrifice - Able's sacrifice; Ishmael - Isaac; Esau - Jacob; Letter - Spirit; First Covenant - New Covenant; Water baptism - Spirit baptism; First Adam - Second Adam; First earth - New earth; Old man - New creation; Jesus in flesh - Jesus in Spirit. The New Testament presents a more glorious message than the Old; the last Adam redeems what the first Adam lost; the message of God's grace unfolded in the New Testament far excels the Law of the Old. The second is greater than the first. It always is when God takes and gives. As someone has written, "In His great wisdom our God has arranged many things in pairs, or shall we say, by contrasting twos. Some of the 'firsts' may seem to be very good, and for a time quite acceptable, but in due time they are to be followed by the 'seconds' which are higher, better, and more desirable than the firsts. Perfection is found in God's seconds. Often the firsts are but a type and a shadow of the reality which is later to be found in the seconds. In the former we find the negative realm working out its purpose, and in the latter there is the glorious positive fulfilling its sphere. The more one ponders each fragment of truth revealed, the more they yearn to leave behind the realm of imperfection, fragmentary, and enter into the freedom of the Spirit of Life in fullness" -end quote.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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And God knows no time.

So what does that all mean?

God also says He knew us before we were formed.

So with God being Imniscient and outside of earthly time how can God be held to time that is part of the human experience
God's Word is written to us in such a way so we can understand something spiritual and deep and hidden.

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

God does not need this information. we do.
 
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Almost there

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I am talking specifically about Adam and Eve.

If God willed for them to sin, then God willed that mankind be separated from Himself.
I kind of see it this way: If I put a fox in my hen house and tell it that it can do anything it want's but don't touch the chickens, and then it kills all my chickens, it wasn't my will being done. My will was that the fox not touch the chickens. But the fox has free will, and I knew that what it would end up doing is killing all the chickens.

So, my will was to put a creature in there that I know had the will and propensity to kill the chickens. Which means I expected that to happen and I still did it.

Which means I have some other reason for doing it.

I believe God knew when he created the earth that everything that has happened would happen and he did it anyway. And I believe it is happening exactly like he knew it would. However, it's not His will that those things happen, but he gave man free choice and he knew what we (in human bodies) would be strongly motivated to do. It is if we had to go through it, kinda like letting your child disobey, knowing they will suffer for it, but also knowing they needed to learn the lesson it teaches, and learn it that way.

Trying to figure out ALL of God's motives is like my dog trying to figure out where and why I go away every weekday for about nine hours.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I kind of see it this way: If I put a fox in my hen house and tell it that it can do anything it want's but don't touch the chickens, and then it kills all my chickens, it wasn't my will being done. My will was that the fox not touch the chickens. But the fox has free will, and I knew that what it would end up doing is killing all the chickens.

So, my will was to put a creature in there that I know had the will and propensity to kill the chickens. Which means I expected that to happen and I still did it.

Which means I have some other reason for doing it.
I think it is very dangerous to assign attributes to God who is Holy, based on what us human beings would do.

I will never do that. That is assigning attributes to God that are attributes of the creation, not the Creator.

If God was like us, that would be aweful. That would not be good.

I believe God is who He tells me He is. Not who I think in my mind He is by comparing Him to myself. That is a scary thought.
 
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Soar Like and Eagle

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I kind of see it this way: If I put a fox in my hen house and tell it that it can do anything it want's but don't touch the chickens, and then it kills all my chickens, it wasn't my will being done. My will was that the fox not touch the chickens. But the fox has free will, and I knew that what it would end up doing is killing all the chickens.

So, my will was to put a creature in there that I know had the will and propensity to kill the chickens. Which means I expected that to happen and I still did it.

Which means I have some other reason for doing it.

I believe God knew when he created the earth that everything that has happened would happen and he did it anyway. And I believe it is happening exactly like he knew it would. However, it's not His will that those things happen, but he gave man free choice and he knew what we (in human bodies) would be strongly motivated to do. It is if we had to go through it, kinda like letting your child disobey, knowing they will suffer for it, but also knowing they needed to learn the lesson it teaches, and learn it that way.

Trying to figure out ALL of God's motives is like my dog trying to figure out where and why I go away every weekday for about nine hours.
I do not believe Adam had a choice for He was doing God's will with his soulish flesh nature which God formed on the seventh day. Nor does carnal man have a freewill towards salvation.
 
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I think it is very dangerous to assign attributes to God who is Holy, based on what us human beings would do.
I don't know what you mean by that. First, he became flesh partly so that we can grasp that he understands our situation. Second, I was saying that he has motives we have no clue about. And the fact is that if you believe God is all knowing and take seriously what the bible says in Romans 9:17, then it means He created Adam, knowing full well that all the events in the bible would happen. And I further submit that from His perspective, it all had already happened because I believe he exists outside of time.

I've said for several decades that I believe we are sort of like God's ant farm. He made us the way he did for a specific purpose. Unfortunately, just like ants, we see through a glass darkly. But then, face to face. :)
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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God's Word is written to us in such a way so we can understand something spiritual and deep and hidden.

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

God does not need this information. we do.
WE are the Book being opened....
 
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I do not believe Adam had a choice for He was doing God's will with his soulish flesh nature which God formed on the seventh day. Nor does carnal man have a freewill towards salvation.
I believe our free will is, in fact, limited, but only in ways like this: I'm free to, while driving down a two lane road, veer into the oncoming lane on purpose to smack head on into a semi. Or, as passing another car on said road, slam into the side of them on purpose to run them off the road.

But you'll find that that is a very difficult choice to make, even though you are free to make it.

But I can choose to sin or not sin, and make both choices often on a daily basis. Sometimes I choose Mexican, and sometimes I choose Thai.

But ultimately I compare all of it to what he said about his creation of Pharaoh.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I do not believe Adam had a choice for He was doing God's will with his soulish flesh nature which God formed on the seventh day. Nor does carnal man have a freewill towards salvation.
Completely disagree.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I don't know what you mean by that. First, he became flesh partly so that we can grasp that he understands our situation. Second, I was saying that he has motives we have no clue about. And the fact is that if you believe God is all knowing and take seriously what the bible says in Romans 9:17, then it means He created Adam, knowing full well that all the events in the bible would happen. And I further submit that from His perspective, it all had already happened because I believe he exists outside of time.

I've said for several decades that I believe we are sort of like God's ant farm. He made us the way he did for a specific purpose. Unfortunately, just like ants, we see through a glass darkly. But then, face to face. :)
What I mean by that if you use your example of the fox and the hen house, you are saying what you would expect to happen if you, yourself created a situation where you gave a fox access to a hen house.

And you used the scenario, based on what you, yourself would expect if you yourself created a situation. You outlined what you would expect to happen.

My point is that if you resolve what happened or happens in the Bible, why God does something, based on what you yourself would think or what you yourself would expect, then you are lowering God's Glory and Holiness to a human level.

Does that make sense?
 
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ToBeLoved

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And the fact is that if you believe God is all knowing and take seriously what the bible says in Romans 9:17, then it means He created Adam, knowing full well that all the events in the bible would happen. And I further submit that from His perspective, it all had already happened because I believe he exists outside of time.

I've said for several decades that I believe we are sort of like God's ant farm. He made us the way he did for a specific purpose. Unfortunately, just like ants, we see through a glass darkly. But then, face to face. :)
I don't see Romans 9:17 pertaining at all to Adam and Eve.

First, Adam and Eve were created with no sin and walked with God. They knew for a fact God existed because God walked WITH them in the garden before the fall. So Adam and Eve were never separated from God, because of sin. So Adam and Eve were the only humans that ever began as Children of God and not sinful human beings.

Pharoah on the other hand, was given chance after chance by God. God sent plague after plague, sign after sign and Pharoah was never God's because he worshipped Egyptian idols. It was only after every warning was given.

So two totally unrelated situations and I see nothing in Romans 9:17 that gives me any insight to Adam and Eve.
 
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What I mean by that if you use your example of the fox and the hen house, you are saying what you would expect to happen if you, yourself created a situation where you gave a fox access to a hen house.

And you used the scenario, based on what you, yourself would expect if you yourself created a situation. You outlined what you would expect to happen.

My point is that if you resolve what happened or happens in the Bible, why God does something, based on what you yourself would think or what you yourself would expect, then you are lowering God's Glory and Holiness to a human level.

Does that make sense?
Yes. But I also believe our Father speaks to us at a human level. He seems to want us to understand, as a human would, but also reminds us that we see as through a glass darkly.

I think if the bible as trying to explain the color "red" to a person that is utterly color blind. It's surprising that it does as good a job as it does.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes. But I also believe our Father speaks to us at a human level. He seems to want us to understand, as a human would, but also reminds us that we see as through a glass darkly.
I think God tries to speak to us on a human level if He can, but God is held to Holiness and therefore perfect Truth. So God cannot just tell us something that is not perfect in Holiness and Truth.

So it all has to jive together in Truth. Perfectly.

This is one of the reason's I think Jesus spoke in parables, because He was perfect and Holy and held to truth.

Jesus could have been like "so, if Mark did so and so to Peter and then Peter responded like so and so then ..." but since it never happened and would be hypothetical it would be confusing. So Jesus chose parables about things they would understand. Like wheat and fields, shepherds and sheep, fig trees and their growth and harvest, ect
 
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I think God tries to speak to us on a human level if He can, but God is held to Holiness and therefore perfect Truth. So God cannot just tell us something that is not perfect in Holiness and Truth.

So it all has to jive together in Truth. Perfectly.

This is one of the reason's I think Jesus spoke in parables, because He was perfect and Holy and held to truth.

Jesus could have been like "so, if Mark did so and so to Peter and then Peter responded like so and so then ..." but since it never happened and would be hypothetical it would be confusing. So Jesus chose parables about things they would understand. Like wheat and fields, shepherds and sheep, fig trees and their growth and harvest, ect
I should of said spiritual level not human level. Far too much human carnal understanding is blinding the saints.
 
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