It was God's Will and purpose that Adam would sin.

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I see God as sovereign of all things and the idea that little Adam could cause all mankind for hundreds of generation fall under the curse of sin and death. Without God's total purpose a major part of it makes God in not control of all things? Before there was a sinner there was a savior for the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing. It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a loving soul, a dust man. It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves. It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden. It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.

 

[Sarah G]

I agree that Jehovah must have known what the outcome of freewill would be, as He is omniscient.

We cannot really make sense of it all, yet. Trust the process, I guess.

 

[mukk_in]

I see God as sovereign of all things and the idea that little Adam could cause all mankind for hundreds of generation fall under the curse of sin and death. Without God's total purpose a major part of it makes God in not control of all things? Before there was a sinner there was a savior for the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing. It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a loving soul, a dust man. It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves. It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden. It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.

Thoughtful post sir. I'd say it was God's permissive will for Adam to sin and His perfect will for Christ to triumph over sin. Peace in Christ .

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Yes. For these reasons you've laid out, I changed my worldview. I can not believe God to be the cause of evil because, "In Him is no darkness at all". He is Holy and Pure. Perfect in every way. I can not believe He created mankind to torture them with evils.

Fortunately, there are alternative ways to look at this problem. Gregory Boyd writes,

If we trust that God’s intelligence is unlimited, we can remain confident that whatever comes to pass, however evil, God has been from the foundation of the world setting up a plan to respond to it. And we can affirm this without having to suggest that evil was originally part of his plan.
​

Rather than controlling every micro-event that occurs on the earth, God has given humanity freedom and dominion over the earth. God is all-knowing in the sense that He knows everything there is to know; so what is there that is unknown? Answer: The unsettled future. The future relies on the choices of free beings and God does not know every choice free agents will choose. I am explaining a worldview called open theism, where the future remains open, it is not closed or pre-determined.

After much discussion and prayer I have come to believe the value of freedom is worth more than all the evil that could be created. There is much to say on this topic. I suggest looking up Open Theism on wikipedia and researching it online in general.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I agree that Jehovah must have known what the outcome of freewill would be, as He is omniscient.

We cannot really make sense of it all, yet. Trust the process, I guess.

I think we can understand but we must seek ask and knock and press towards that mark of the high callings of Christ Jesus. Adam had no freewill in this it was God's will. No where in the Bible is the word freewill used except the freewill offering in the Old Testament and it has nothing to do with Adam or man's salvation. Freewill is a religious word.

 

[Sarah G]

I think we can understand but we must seek ask and knock and press towards that mark of the high callings of Christ Jesus. Adam had no freewill in this it was God's will. No where in the Bible is the word freewill used except the freewill offering in the Old Testament and it has nothing to do with Adam or man's salvation. Freewill is a religious word.

I am going to look into 'open theism'. That is something concrete I can look into.

What exactly do you mean by 'ask, knock and press towards that mark of the high callings of Christ Jesus' ? What do you mean by 'Freewill is a religious word'?

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I am going to look into 'open theism'. That is something concrete I can look into.

What exactly do you mean by 'ask, knock and press towards that mark of the high callings of Christ Jesus' ? What do you mean by 'Freewill is a religious word'?

This is very concrete once you see it. The word "see" in the Greek can mean with eyes wide open at something remarkable.

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Show me freewill in scripture? Adam's fall as an example is there any mention of freewill or it assumed? I see it as assumed for this whole Garden of Eden foundation of creation is far to important for little Adam to mess it up. When it comes to salvation man is carnal and cannot choose something when its against his nature. It is God will and grace that saves us in his timing.

Seek ask and knock and pressing towards the calling is what we as believers should be doing trying to open up God's Word so we can see and understand its deepness. The word mystery is written around 20 times in the New testament and means sacred secret.

 

[SPF]

Open Theism is essentially outright heresy. Read this critique of Boyd and Open Theism.

God, by His very nature, possesses what we call both communicable and incommunicable attributes. The incommunicable attributes of God are the parts of God's nature that are just so far beyond us that it is difficult for us to make sense of them and fully understand them. For example, consider the eternality of God. Can any of us picture what an eternal being looks like? Can any of us comprehend eternality? Something without a beginning? Everything that experience, every thing we see in this world has a beginning. How does an eternal being relate to time? It's basically incomprehensible.

Yet, we don't then throw out the notion that God is eternal, we simply acknowledge that God, as an eternal being, is somewhat incomprehensible. And think about it, isn't that kind of obvious? We are created, finite, limited, temporal beings. Are so arrogant to think that we ought to be able to understand and comprehend the nature of GOD? I mean come on, let's be a little humble and honest here.

Open Theism strips God of many of His core attributes. For example, omniscience, omnipotence, and immutability are all removed from God. Even God's relationship to time is determined to be the exact same as ours under Open Theism. You aren't sure of what you're going to have for breakfast? Under Open Theism neither does God.

Open Theism may sound appealing to someone at first, honestly, I don't understand how anyone with even a basic level of theological education could get sucked into Open Theism.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Open Theism is essentially outright heresy. Read this critique of Boyd and Open Theism.

God, by His very nature, possesses what we call both communicable and incommunicable attributes. The incommunicable attributes of God are the parts of God's nature that are just so far beyond us that it is difficult for us to make sense of them and fully understand them. For example, consider the eternality of God. Can any of us picture what an eternal being looks like? Can any of us comprehend eternality? Something without a beginning? Everything that experience, every thing we see in this world has a beginning. How does an eternal being relate to time? It's basically incomprehensible.

Yet, we don't then throw out the notion that God is eternal, we simply acknowledge that God, as an eternal being, is somewhat incomprehensible. And think about it, isn't that kind of obvious? We are created, finite, limited, temporal beings. Are so arrogant to think that we ought to be able to understand and comprehend the nature of GOD? I mean come on, let's be a little humble and honest here.

Open Theism strips God of many of His core attributes. For example, omniscience, omnipotence, and immutability are all removed from God. Even God's relationship to time is determined to be the exact same as ours under Open Theism. You aren't sure of what you're going to have for breakfast? Under Open Theism neither does God.

Open Theism may sound appealing to someone at first, honestly, I don't understand how anyone with even a basic level of theological education could get sucked into Open Theism.

I am not speaking of that. What I am speaking of is the fact that so many truths are hidden in scripture and that is why the hidden is so important to our spiritual development. I quoted two points earlier and here they are again: One being the word mystery (written nearly 20 times in the NT) which means sacred secret. A Spiritual mystery is a mystery until it can be discovered.

As well as : Pro. 25: 2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

 

[SPF]

If you weren't speaking about Open Theism then there is a good chance my reply was not in response to something you wrote.

But if you want me to comment on something you wrote, I can do that as well. I agree with Jonathan Edwards with regards to free-will. All of us, at any given time, will always act upon our greatest inclination.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't think we can disregard the fact that Adam and Eve were created perfectly without sin as were the angels, the other creation we know God created.

If we start believing that God created mankind for sin, then we have to believe God messed up creating mankind without sin in the first place.

Lucifer had free will with the other angels to rebel and God gave Adam and Eve a way to rebel if they chose to.

And not thinking mankind has any free will is to think both saints and sinners are out there being robots they were programmed to be, not the creation in God's image.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

If you weren't speaking about Open Theism then there is a good chance my reply was not in response to something you wrote.

But if you want me to comment on something you wrote, I can do that as well. I agree with Jonathan Edwards with regards to free-will. All of us, at any given time, will always act upon our greatest inclination.

Secular ideas are find but spiritual knowledge comes from the Word of God by the Spirit of Truth. Freewill is religious word not a scriptural word when it comes to salvation or Adam.

I don't think we can disregard the fact that Adam and Eve were created perfectly without sin as were the angels, the other creation we know God created.

If we start believing that God created mankind for sin, then we have to believe God messed up creating mankind without sin in the first place.

Lucifer had free will with the other angels to rebel and God gave Adam and Eve a way to rebel if they chose to.

And not thinking mankind has any free will is to think both saints and sinners are out there being robots they were programmed to be, not the creation in God's image.

No god did not mess up creating mankind without sin in the first place. It was His plan before there was a sinner there was a savior for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. I ask you why god would create a savior if there was no need for one?

Satan has no power unless God ordains it. look at Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job , that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" 9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face." 12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.


God is in control of all things; sure He limited what Satan could do; for a reason because God is always in complete control of all things to include Satan. But it was God who was the one who introduced Satan to Job “Have you considered my servant Job”. It was God who took down the hedge from around Job so Satan to do his work on job. It was the process of tribulation and trial God was after; to prove Job. Do you really believe Satan could be in the Garden of Eden and God did not know about it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

No god did not mess up creating mankind without sin in the first place. It was His plan before there was a sinner there was a savior for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. I ask you why god would create a savior if there was no need for one?

I think because since God 'allowed' the Tree of Good and Evil to be in the garden, God always knew it might happen.

With that said, how do you explain why if it was God's plan that Adam and Eve fall to sin, why bother making them without sin in the first place, if there is no 'free will' as you say?

It still doesn't make sense.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Satan has no power unless God ordains it. look at Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job , that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" 9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face." 12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.


God is in control of all things; sure He limited what Satan could do; for a reason because God is always in complete control of all things to include Satan. But it was God who was the one who introduced Satan to Job “Have you considered my servant Job”. It was God who took down the hedge from around Job so Satan to do his work on job. It was the process of tribulation and trial God was after; to prove Job. Do you really believe Satan could be in the Garden of Eden and God did not know about it?

Well, my belief is that Satan did not have free reign on Job because Job was God's and Job chose to follow God.

God ordained Satan power when He cast him down to earth and gave him some free reign. God didn't remove his power, only put limits on what he could and could not do.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

I think because since God 'allowed' the Tree of Good and Evil to be in the garden, God always knew it might happen.

With that said, how do you explain why if it was God's plan that Adam and Eve fall to sin, why bother making them without sin in the first place, if there is no 'free will' as you say?

It still doesn't make sense.

God does not create puppets. At the beginning of the book God created a innocent child who could be deceived. At the end of the Bible God wants overcomer , son. Its the process of redemption God desires in His sons.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God does not create puppets. At the beginning of the book God created a innocent child who could be deceived. At the end of the Bible God wants overcomer , son. Its the process of redemption God desires in His sons.

Please answer my question.

Why were Adam and Eve created perfect by God if that was His Will for them? It makes no sense.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Well, my belief is that Satan did not have free reign on Job because Job was God's and Job chose to follow God.

God ordained Satan power when He cast him down to earth and gave him some free reign. God didn't remove his power, only put limits on what he could and could not do.

Job shows us nothing happens outside of god's will and yes Satan power is controlled by God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Job shows us nothing happens outside of god's will and yes Satan power is controlled by God.

God says Himself that He made Satan the god of this earth.

 

[Soar Like and Eagle]

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Notice time frame

 

[brinny]

Job shows us nothing happens outside of god's will and yes Satan power is controlled by God.

Speaking of Satan, what is Satan's final "destination"?

Is the living God "pleased" with Satan?