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It was God's Will and purpose that Adam would sin.

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by Soar Like and Eagle, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. YouAreAwesome

    YouAreAwesome ☝✌

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    Ok but what other option is there than these two:
    1. Man is free to separate from God, OR
    2. Man is forced to separate from God.

    And which one is correct? I don't see how the definition you present changes these options.
     
  2. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ok. I don't want to derail the thread either, but my belief is that God made sure what made it into the cannon and the reasons we know many things are visions (incl Revelation) is that God's Word tells us when it is a vision, dream or whatever.

    Let's leave it at that though.
     
  3. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    Yep. I also notice that a lot of people in the bible are forgiven even though they did not ask to be nor did they repent that I'm aware of.

    Well, at least Jesus and Stephen asked that they be forgiven.
     
  4. YouAreAwesome

    YouAreAwesome ☝✌

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    You've missed the translation here. God doesn't turn man to destruction in the sense that he's causing them to sin, He turns man to destruction in the sense of being destroyed, going back to the dust of the earth. This has nothing to do with garden of eden at all.

    Now about Romans 8:20, Paul is referring to the curse in Genesis 3:17:

    To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
    Note that God did not say "I curse the earth" but said "Cursed is the ground because of you". That is, Adam is the one responsible for bringing the curse. Note also that in Romans 8:20 there is no reference to God at all (though some translations place God in the verse even though it's NOT in the Greek at all -- go and look it up, God is no where to be found in the Greek) and many translators have translated accurately -- NIV, ESV, KJ, ISV, NHE, ABPE, GWT, JB2000, AKJ, ASV, DRB, ERV, WBT, WEB etc.
     
  5. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Carnal man can choose anything he wants in the natural world for that is where He is and who he belongs to but salvation is a spiritual experience and carnal man has to be drawn/dragged out of his spiritual state. I posts Eph 2 1-9 in context as wells as John 6:44 that shows us this way. So how can a man be free if God drags him out of His carnality or have to quicken or make alive carnal man from his dead spiritual state before he can have faith. You the difference between you and me is I believe Jesus saves us by His grace and you believe carnal man can some how save himself by his carnal faith.

    This is impossible because:
    1 Corinthians 2: 14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

    Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
    6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9Not of works, lest any man should boast

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk (drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
     
  6. YouAreAwesome

    YouAreAwesome ☝✌

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    It seems to me you are arguing that man is not free because he can't fly, he can't be an angel, he can't save himself, he can't be God, etc. Just because mankind can't do certain things, doesn't mean mankind isn't free to choose good or evil. Free-will is meant to mean that man has the freedom to choose between right and wrong, and make choices autonomously in general. It doesn't mean mankind can do all things.

    No, Jesus opened the way to salvation for all. Through Him all mankind can be saved. All are forgiven and loved. Mankind has the choice of whether to accept His salvation or reject it. Remember, Romans 9 is with respect to the nation of Israel, do not read it as though Paul is talking about things from an individuals perspective.

    Yes exactly. God draws all men, but not all men respond.

    Romans 10:13 -- For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
     
  7. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    If God draws you you have no choice but respond. If I tie you to a car with a chain and drag you how much freewill do you have?

    I understand with your limited salvation you do not see this next fact but it is scriptural.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

    Jesus was lifted up at Calvary,.
     
  8. YouAreAwesome

    YouAreAwesome ☝✌

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    No, Acts 7:51 refutes this claim.

    "You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
     
  9. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your verse says "all men", but then up above you say all have no choice but to respond.

    So with your thinking, why are not 'all men' saved?
     
  10. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    They will be. In God's timing



    Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

    It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.





    1 Corinthians 15:22-24


    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
     
  11. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    those verses make you think that even those who die unsaved, will eventually become saved?
     
  12. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot more verses that declare this truth but the religious realm is to busy condemning and damning they refuse to see them.

    One of my favorites is the follow. Most do not understand the spiritual significant of the Melchizedek priesthood, Mount Zion and the Tabernacle of David.

    David brought the ark of god to mt Zion and every day because of the Ark of the covenant David was in the presence of God's glory for that is what the ark is all about. David lived on Mt Zion and the ark should of been in the Tabernacle at Sheol but it wasn't it was with David.

    Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.'

    Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

    Acts 15: (Amp) 17 So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

    Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

    Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

    Now if the rest of men may seek the Lord, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing “, “ all the Gentiles , the “remainder of man kind are destroyed as you proclaim in the Lake of Devine Purging (Lake of Fire); then what about this promise.
     
  13. YouAreAwesome

    YouAreAwesome ☝✌

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    @Soar Like and Eagle
    Well, just before the thread derails into "Universalism", I hope we can agree that it was not God's plan that humanity would suffer; that planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not the act of causing evil. I hope we can agree that God's plan and purposes are always loving in the most childlike ways.

    We never got to discussing where free will is found in the Bible. Even though the fact of evil proves free-will, nevertheless there is biblical witness also.

    One example (of many) John 7:17 (ESV):

    If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.​

    Jesus teaches that a person has the capacity to either do God's will, or not do God's will. Is this not a clear example of free will?
     
  14. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    You are confusing believers with the loss who have never been called.

    Such a sad an unforgiving concept of Jesus; carnal people have no choice but to reject Jesus; they are dead in trespasses and sin. Have you ever seen a dead man choose something; this is double true of a spiritual dead man. No one has freewill to choose God. It was God will; not little Adams that Adam fell.

    Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

    Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
    There is no one who looks to God for help.



    Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

    There's nobody living right, not even one,
    nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
    They've all taken the wrong turn;
    they've all wandered down blind alleys.
    No one's living right;
    I can't find a single one.
    Their throats are gaping graves,
    their tongues slick as mudslides.
    Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
    They open their mouths and pollute the air.
    They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
    litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
    Don't know the first thing about living with others.
    They never give God the time of day.
     
  15. YouAreAwesome

    YouAreAwesome ☝✌

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    You are not addressing the points I bring up. You seem to be dismissing those things that don't fit in to your theology. I showed quite simply how Irresistible Grace is false. You haven't replied. I've shown quite simply how free will is clearly biblical. You haven't replied. Instead you are throwing forward verses that appear to say the opposite. Fair enough, I will address these also, but if you can't address those that I put forward I think I will not continue in this thread. No hard feelings of course :)

    Romans 3:11 is a quote from Psalms 14. In Psalms 14 David writes about how God is searching the world for someone who is seeking Him. But, "There are none who seek Him". We can't conclude from this that there are no people at all who ever who seek for God. Rather, David is emphasising how it seems like no-one cares about morality or God. The world seems to David to be so evil and harsh. If you argue that no man seeks for God because of what David wrote, then it would be in contradiction with David's own writing in Psalm 63:1:

    You, God, are my God, earnestly I seek you; I thirst for you, my whole being longs for you, in a dry and parched land where there is no water.
    Furthermore Jesus Himself taught us to seek for God in Matthew 7:7.
     
  16. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Yes man has a freewill I told you he does but He does not have a freewill to save himself if this is what you believe than please explain how someone has a freewill when he is being dragged out of his carnality for no one comes to the father unless the Father draws/drags/forces him. (John 6:44). You seem to i gore the fact that a dead spiritual sees spiritual things as foolishness and a spiritual dead man cannot see
    I did not ever say no people at all who ever who seek for God. Those our your words. Many seek God after God draws them and not because their carnal brain has a freewill to call upon God. God has to quicken their spirits for they are dead in trustpasses and sins. Eph. 2: 1-9 in context.

    David was a spiritual man in OT since for he lived with the Art of God at Mt Zion but this does not negate the fact that carnal man is dead spiritual... dead in trespasses and sins and a dead spiritual man cannot see, hear, touch smell spiritual things for he is carnal. You ignore John 6:44 that declares NO ONE comes to the father unless the father draws/drags/forces him and there is no freewill when you are being dragged. please move on for your belief system is based on un-scriptural words and than all you do is deny the scriptures or refuse to address them when I post them.
     
  17. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    God has distributed a measure of faith to each one. Romans 12:3 There is a duality within...a seed within a seed...and one must die for the other to live. Carnal nature and spirit of Christ. It is all God's doing and each somewhere within the process taking place within. Some still in a deep slumber, perceiving with the five senses...

    Before the serpent came into the garden, Adam was one who was two (Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.) Then God put Adam into a deep slumber (many scriptures call us to awaken O sleeper), pierced his side to take out a woman. "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." (Genesis 2:21-25) And they were naked and not ashamed...



    Hebrews 12:For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



    The woman (she was not named until after the fall) prepared the feast that Adam ate. Her desire was to be for he husband alone...but she desired something else outside of the one they were to be...suddenly there was a change of eyesight and they hid themselves. They heard the voice of God outside of themselves (from behind them) ask "Where art thou?" and the garden was closed off to them.

    The woman (a picture of our soul) can be seen throughout scripture as the bride or the harlot. Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name;...Christ is the door/the gate (back)...His side was pierced...to become one (again) ...the bride who is faithful to her husband.

    The duality within is promised and end...overcomers ...who receive a white stone and a new name that only the one who receives it knows...Perceiving single of eye Matthew 6:22 ...the truth of who we are narrows down to ONE, a son as we have always been but didn't know (restored/renewed/reconciled)
     
  18. YouAreAwesome

    YouAreAwesome ☝✌

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    Peace bro, I'm bowing out of this thread.
     
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  19. Soar Like and Eagle

    Soar Like and Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Bye
     
  20. mozo41

    mozo41 Well-Known Member

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    the law becomes a curse when not kept ...
     
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