What about those who haven’t heard?

[iwbswiaihl2]

The Word is clear to those who have studied it for themselves and who don't remain dependent on others to teach it to them. If you were somewhat familiar with the Greek, you would know that there is no such phrase such as "eternal torment" in the NT. Please show where in the NT does Jesus say that there will be eternal torment.

Rev 20: 10-15 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: V46 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Heb 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Mark 9:43-44 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ Meaning of worm from W E Vine's NT words #4663 Strong's "a worm which preys upon dead bodies" used metaphorically by the Lord in Mark 9:48.

Matt 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And there are more.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

If there is no salvation after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

If so, then is it a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of "hell" (however it is defined) or punishment of any sort?

As I stated what I believe concerning babies is what I believe, nevertheless, show any scripture that teaches the lost are ever given another chance of salvation. The Romans 1 passage says all are without excuse who suppress the truth that was revealed to them in creation and placed within them. That is specifically stating all, show your proof text(s) that specifically state a second opportunity after death. Even in Rev 20:12-15 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Now show me your text that actually state a chance after death for being saved.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Indeed; agree with you Mark. The common ground is no matter what we believe, whether it be Universalism, Annihilationism, or eternal punishment - those who do not believe/follow Jesus in this life - end up in the Lake of Fire. Whether one's stay in the LOF is temporary or lasts forever is subject to debate but I don't think any sensible person would want to spend even one second there. Therefore the spreading of the gospel is priority #1. The other thing I would add is the goal is to make disciples; not just converts. Converts can fall away from the faith but if properly taught and discipled, they have a better chance of fighting the good fight and finishing the race.

The making of disciples is the whole point, for essentially the reason you state.

Discipleship results in transformation and that is what we need. (Again, always through Christ, and always by the grace of God.)

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

The important point of Romans 3:9-12 is that everyone sins. Paul is drawing from Ps 14 & 53, which are specifically addressing the wicked BTW, and maybe Eccl 7 where Solomon makes the general point that all sin. Either way man is lost without God; man cannot be wholly righteous or holy or just-who he was simply meant to be-apart from God. Separated from God man tends towards corruption, evil, excess, disorder, not to mention basic unhappiness-and death; he has no life without God. So parts of Rom 3 is an exercise in hyperbole at most-to drive home a point: man needs God. “Apart from me you can do nothing” John 15:5 That need is addressed in Jer 31:34

“No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

so that God may then, as this intimate communion is established, do His work in us:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

None of this means that the image of God was completely wiped out in man due to the Fall. We see acts of authentic kindness, compassion, sacrifice, altruism, love, everyday-evidence of God’s handiwork. It may be less than all He wants for us, because He only wants the very best from us and for us, but that is true even for believers. In the end we’ll be judged on our love, expressed by how we treat our neighbor, the “least of these”, which is what Matt 25:31-46 is getting at as it sets standards for God’s judgment- and regardless of our professed belief BTW. “If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”, Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13.

In any case we’re not to take isolated passages of the bible and read them woodenly, as if they were meant to present some sort of precisely worded doctrine. The bible was not intended as a catechism or creed. Understanding is called for, not merely rote quoting.

Of course you are entitled to how you take the bible and the importance of it, I don't share that same view that the scriptures are not intended for the instructions to the saints, nor do I believe there are any writings outside of the scriptures that have the same authority as scripture. Traditions based on the scriptures are practices of doctrines which come from scripture, not the other way around. I do not count traditions that have no scripture evidence as being from God. His word is the lamp unto our feet and the light unto our path. That is the highway of holiness from my belief and others can walk in their beliefs, every tub sits on its on bottom. We each give an account only for our actions.

 

[Francis Drake]

Knowledge vs humility.

I see many arguments here as to who has the right theological benchmark for those striving for heaven.
ie.
Praying the so called "sinner's prayer".
Knowing the right theology.
Repenting of our sins.
Getting baptised.
Believing the right scriptures.
Joining to the right church.
Obeying the commandments.

I believe that the benchmark for eternal life is simply humility before our creator.

Matt18v1In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?”

2And having summoned a child, He set it in their midst, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, if you are not converted and become as the little children, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens. 4Therefore whoever will humble himself as this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens. 5And whoever shall receive one such little child in My name, receives Me.

Jesus clearly says we must become like little children. The church effectively says little children must become like adults before they can understand what Jesus did on the cross.

I knew the Lord as a child, long before anyone taught me about what Jesus did on the cross. I had revelations in my spirit which I much later learned were scripturally correct.

My wife had encounters with Jesus when she was 3 years old. When she was 18, she was given a bible, which she read from cover to cover. She then recognised what the Lord had showed her at the age of three.

 

[fhansen]

Of course you are entitled to how you take the bible and the importance of it, I don't share that same view that the scriptures are not intended for the instructions to the saints, nor do I believe there are any writings outside of the scriptures that have the same authority as scripture. Traditions based on the scriptures are practices of doctrines which come from scripture, not the other way around. I do not count traditions that have no scripture evidence as being from God. His word is the lamp unto our feet and the light unto our path. That is the highway of holiness from my belief and others can walk in their beliefs, every tub sits on its on bottom. We each give an account only for our actions.

Well, it's not a matter of differences of importance between us regarding Scripture, rather its about how Scripture can be understood. The Church understood and preached the gospel before a word of the New Testament was written. While there was never disagreement within the Church over doctrines on, for example, the real presence, infant baptism, or baptismal regeneration, the doctrine of Sola Scripture brought about all kinds of disagreement over these and other matters, even over the deity of Jesus. Tradition doesn't contradict Scripture but it can compliment and clarify it. And it can fill in with those oral traditions and teachings that Scripture itself informs us were unrecorded.

Anyway, you as well, are entitled to believe what you like about Scripture of course, and to limit God's Word to Scripture if that's your personal opinion.

 

[ClementofA]

As I stated what I believe concerning babies is what I believe, nevertheless, show any scripture that teaches the lost are ever given another chance of salvation. The Romans 1 passage says all are without excuse who suppress the truth that was revealed to them in creation and placed within them. That is specifically stating all, show your proof text(s) that specifically state a second opportunity after death. Even in Rev 20:12-15 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Now show me your text that actually state a chance after death for being saved.

If there is no afterlife salvation, then (1) do babies go to hell?

Or (2) do babies get saved or an opportunity for salvation after death? In which case there is the possibility of afterlife salvation.

This is multiple choice, (1) or (2).

Since you stated there is no afterlife salvation, i guess that leaves you with option (1). OTOH your comments in another post, if i recall correctly, re David's dead child, seem to oppose your statement that there is no afterlife salvation & support option (2). Can you help clear this up?

Is there afterlife salvation? Yes or no?

When does the Lord Jesus draw dead babies to Himself (Jn.12:32)? Before or after death?

Alternately, there is option number (3): I don't know.


---------------------


"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

 

[PlayingForTheLord]

I'd like to thank those who have referenced Romans 2 in this thread.

I strongly believe that those who fervently seek answers to questions regarding the Christian faith will find them in the Bible. But here's the catch - we bring our own sensibilities into it. So, often it's not whether or not there's a valid answer to a question, but whether or not the answer is in line with OUR sensibilities. We tend to need answers that we can identify with, otherwise we often consider the answers non-valid (and when I say "we," I'm speaking generally). I'll give you an example from the Old Testament to help illustrate this:

When we read of instances such as where God sends plagues, or orders the destruction of an entire people (and their animals), our modern sensibilities often keep us from trusting God's judgment. We keep wondering about collateral damage; "What about the innocent? What about the children? What about those who know not of the God of Abraham?" Believe me, I've done this myself, many times. What I've learned to do (and I'm still working on it!) is take what I can understand, and trust God with the rest. If God ordered destruction, then destruction was necessary. If Jesus says "No one comes to the Father except through me," I trust that He will do right by those who have not formally heard The Word, for He intimately knows everyone's heart. I don't have to understand it all. To quote Proverbs 3:5-6,

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

 

[bling]

I think God actually does something like this in Ezekiel 33:1-6, which ends like this:

NIV Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone's life, that person's life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.'
​

I think the same principle would imply that we are accountable if we fail to do what we can to reach the unreached with the gospel.

First off: when did we take the position of watchman?

A watchman is very much responsible for the lives of those he is assigned to watch over (keep alive), while the eternal life of the nonbeliever is not up to us but they have to make the choice. I do not make the choice for them to live forever.

Paul seemed to feel this keenly:

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:16b Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

Paul did not say: “woe to them” if I do not preach, but “woe to me”, so it would be bad on Paul not to preach?

As for Paul saying: “Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!” God’s Love was compelling him to preach, so for him to stop preaching would mean a huge quenching of the spirit, but we may not feel that same compulsion at this point in our spiritual growth.

Those are indeed excellent reasons and motivations to share the gospel with those who have not heard it. But they are not the ONLY good motivations.

Why aren’t they? Paul was compelled by Love to do all he did, but that does not mean he felt the salvation of others was his responsibility. Salvation is still up to the individual all we can do is be a part of provide the very best opportunity to make the right choice. If we do not do our part does not mean everyone we could have had a part in helping is lost or even any are lost because we did not play our part.

There is actually a great example in the Bible which is very similar to what you are describing above. Cornelius is described like this:

NIV Acts 10:2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.​

God DOES help Cornelius. But God does NOT bypass His revealed method of the gospel being preached. God sends Peter with the gospel to Cornelius. I do not doubt that God might intervene in many ways and work powerfully to get the gospel to people who are seeking Him. But I see no evidence that they can be saved in any other way.

Wait just a minute: the Bible does not address those who pray and are never reached by Christian teachers (there seems to be few teachers available at time in some parts of the world especially like Peter).

You are making a huge assumption saying: “All sincere nonbeliever, who pray for help and there are not enough sincere believers to go are lost.” We do know from Cornelius: God hears their prays, wants to help and will help, but you are suggesting other people can keep God from helping?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

If there is no afterlife salvation, then (1) do babies go to hell?

Or (2) do babies get saved or an opportunity for salvation after death? In which case there is the possibility of afterlife salvation.

This is multiple choice, (1) or (2).

Since you stated there is no afterlife salvation, i guess that leaves you with option (1). OTOH your comments in another post, if i recall correctly, re David's dead child, seem to oppose your statement that there is no afterlife salvation & support option (2). Can you help clear this up?

Is there afterlife salvation? Yes or no?

When does the Lord Jesus draw dead babies to Himself (Jn.12:32)? Before or after death?

Alternately, there is option number (3): I don't know.

Let me give you the 3rd option because I don't agreed with your first 2 at all. Since I do believe that babies go to heaven it is because they are not knowledgeable enough to choose between good and evil which is when they are living. I do not as I have stated believe in a chance after death for anyone. I have never read one in scripture. As David said he would go to be with his son and I stated, that would be in heaven not the grave or where David's body would be because David would not have remained in his body but would have went to the place where the OT saints would have been until Jesus paid their sin debt on Calvary. Then their spirits would be with the Lord forevermore. 2 Sam:12:22-23 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

Isa 7:13-16 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Deut 1:39 ‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

 

[ClementofA]

Let me give you the 3rd option because I don't agreed with your first 2 at all. Since I do believe that babies go to heaven it is because they are not knowledgeable enough to choose between good and evil which is when they are living. I do not as I have stated believe in a chance after death for anyone. I have never read one in scripture. As David said he would go to be with his son and I stated, that would be in heaven not the grave or where David's body would be because David would not have remained in his body but would have went to the place where the OT saints would have been until Jesus paid their sin debt on Calvary. Then their spirits would be with the Lord forevermore. 2 Sam:12:22-23 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

Isa 7:13-16 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Deut 1:39 ‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

If babies go to heaven, then they get salvation. Since they didn't have salvation before they died, they get it after they died. Therefore there is afterlife salvation.

A related topic is whether they are (A) forced into heaven by irresistible grace. Or (B) given the option to choose between accepting or rejecting Christ.

Jesus said He will draw all to Himself (Jn.12:32). Since babies were not drawn before they died, they will have to be drawn after death. Therefore He will draw them to Himself for after death salvation. So there is the possibility of after death salvation.

If babies who die immediately go to heaven, then is it a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of "hell" (however it is defined) or punishment of any sort?


----------------


"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

You are making a huge assumption saying: “All sincere nonbeliever, who pray for help and there are not enough sincere believers to go are lost.” We do know from Cornelius: God hears their prays, wants to help and will help, but you are suggesting other people can keep God from helping?

Are you making a huge assumption saying that Cornelius was a nonbeliever? Go to Acts chapter 10 and start reading from verse 1 Acts 10:1-7 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!” 4 So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.” Now read on yourself and I will post after Peter's vision in v13-15 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. verse 22 And they said, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you.” verses 34-48 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Cornelius was one who feared God and had abandoned his pagan religion in favor of worshiping Jehovah God. But had not become a full proselyte to Judaism through circumcision. Cornelius was to receive the saving knowledge of God in Christ Jesus. And notice the text says nothing about him or his household of being converted, but does say in v 44 while Peter was still talking the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word and the Jews were astonished. Why, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been given to the Gentiles also. Notice as a side point, they received the Holy Spirit first and then were baptized.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

If babies go to heaven, then they get salvation. Since they didn't have salvation before they died, they get it after they died. Therefore there is afterlife salvation.

A related topic is whether they are (A) forced into heaven by irresistible grace. Or (B) given the option to choose between accepting or rejecting Christ.

Jesus said He will draw all to Himself (Jn.12:32). Since babies were not drawn before they died, they will have to be drawn after death. Therefore He will draw them to Himself for after death salvation. So there is the possibility of after death salvation.

If babies who die immediately go to heaven, then is it a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of "hell" (however it is defined) or punishment of any sort?

----------------
"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

You repeated that their blessing came after death and I stated I do not believe that and said in the post you answer here, that they would have not been lost while living and would go to heaven because of not being able to choose between good and evil. That had nothing to do with an after dead blessing. Those are your words not mine. I stated mine, no salvation after death is ever offered.

 

[Oldmantook]

Rev 20: 10-15 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: V46 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Heb 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Mark 9:43-44 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ Meaning of worm from W E Vine's NT words #4663 Strong's "a worm which preys upon dead bodies" used metaphorically by the Lord in Mark 9:48.

Matt 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. And there are more.

Out of respect for the OP's thread this has no direct relationship to the topic being discussed so I'll just address it briefly this one time. We both agree there is a literal place known as the Lake of Fire. We disagree whether the punishment inflicted there is eternal. The verses you cite which directly mention eternal punishment do not say eternal punishment. The Greek word from which most Bibles translate as 'eternal' is from adjectival forms such as 'aionion', 'aionios', etc. These adjectives are derived from the Greek noun 'aion' from which we get the English word eon. An eon is a set age of time - not an unlimited or unending amount of time. Its adjectives therefore cannot take on a different meaning from the noun from which they are derived. In other words since aion refers to an age, (finite/limited amount of time) aionion/aionios cannot mean eternal or forever. Rather they have to be mean something akin to age-during or pertaining to an age.
¨ Young’s Literal Translation: “punishment age-during.”
¨ Rotherham Translation: “age-abiding correction.”
¨ Weymouth Translation: “punishment of the ages.”
¨ Concordant Literal Translation: “chastening eonian.”
G. Campbell Morgan, sometimes referred to as the prince of expositors explained in his book God's Methods with Men:
Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is—“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally (p.185-6).

 

[ClementofA]

Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: V46 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I'd respond to that misleading & deceptive translation here, except this forum is apparently not the place for it.

AFAIK universalism etc should be topics for the Controversial Theology forum, according to:

Statement of Purpose - General Theology Statement of Purpose

Where those verses have been addressed before many times, such as here:

annihilation and eternal torment are the same spirit

So i won't be discussing it in this forum.

The same would apply to those after death salvation Scriptures you were asking about.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I can abide with that, but you and Oldmantook brought up the questions about which I gave the answers and then give your answer and then say this is not the place to disguise it. Knowing that I am curious why I was ever ask for my reasons. Nevertheless, have a great evening.

 

[ClementofA]

I can abide with that, but you and Oldmantook brought up the questions about which I gave the answers and then give your answer and then say this is not the place to disguise it. Knowing that I am curious why I was ever ask for my reasons. Nevertheless, have a great evening.

There are different topics that have been discussed here in this thread with you. My point is that some are appropriate for this particular forum, and AFAIK others are not. Not everyone may be aware of this.

 

[bling]

Are you making a huge assumption saying that Cornelius was a nonbeliever? Go to Acts chapter 10 and start reading from verse 1 Acts 10:1-7 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!” 4 So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.” Now read on yourself and I will post after Peter's vision in v13-15 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. verse 22 And they said, “Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you.” verses 34-48 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Cornelius was one who feared God and had abandoned his pagan religion in favor of worshiping Jehovah God. But had not become a full proselyte to Judaism through circumcision. Cornelius was to receive the saving knowledge of God in Christ Jesus. And notice the text says nothing about him or his household of being converted, but does say in v 44 while Peter was still talking the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word and the Jews were astonished. Why, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been given to the Gentiles also. Notice as a side point, they received the Holy Spirit first and then were baptized.

Are you saying Cornelius was a Christian prior to Peter going to see him?
Was Cornelius a believer in Christ prior to Peter going to him?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

That is a very good question and one that really needs to be separated from this post I think, so as not to over take the topic on this one. I have never started a new post, so if you will start it I will give my understanding on Cornelius there. Thanks for asking about him and in the process for info, simply search the topic, was Cornelius saved in your search engine and see what others have said before. Thanks

 

[~Anastasia~]

There are different topics that have been discussed here in this thread with you. My point is that some are appropriate for this particular forum, and AFAIK others are not. Not everyone may be aware of this.

This is true, and happens because threads tend to wander to related or supporting doctrines. But you are correct that some cannot be discussed in GT. It's easy to forget where one is posting sometimes, but the reminder is a good point.