What does "except there come a falling away first" in 2 Thess. 2:3 mean?

[Revealing Times]

No such thing as a earthly Millennial Kingdom found in the scripture, none.

Oh brother...........one of those hey............

 

[Oldmantook]

I do not need to explain something you seemingly have misconstrued. Now you explain how Re. 19 can happen without a pre-tribulation rapture.

I have already explained the other in another post, just must not read the posts. You can stay here if you like, ask God to please keep you here, O am going to be in heaven marrying the Lamb.

Can't you answer simple question? Since you choose not to I won't answer yours although the answer to yours is really quite evident.

 

[Quasar92]

You did not address the problem of how can Jesus possibly have taught a pre-trib rapture when he plainly stated that he will come as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon (Rev 16:15-16). You also ignore proper interpretation when you do no account for the principle of first mention. This hemeneutical rule states that to understand a particular word or doctrine, one must find the first place in Scripture that word or doctrine is revealed and study that passage. The reasoning is that the Bible’s first mention of a concept is the simplest and clearest presentation; doctrines are then more fully developed on that foundation. So, to fully understand an important and complex theological concept, Bible students are advised to start with its “first mention.” Obviously, Jesus was the one who first mentioned/taught his disciples as to when he will return. They then wrote what he taught in the various books of the NT. Paul who later became an Apostle built on that foundation so his epistles including 1 & 2 Thessalonians must conform to what Jesus stated. Jesus plainly stated that he will return as a thief at the time frame of Armageddon, therefore according to the law of first mention Paul could not have taught from a pre-trib position.

You have had an example of Jesus addressing His disciples, [all believers] telling them He was coming back for them and take them to the Father in heaven, recorded in Jn.14>2-3 and 28.

In Mt.24:30, He was addressing Israel. As such, it is necessary in the interpretation of the Scriptures to understand who is being addressed. Israel has been decreed to go through the tribulation, because as a nation, they are still in denial of Jesus being their messiah, until He returns in His second cming, recorded in Zech.12:10.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Q, you must have misunderstood my question. Deuteronomy 31:9-13, what do those institutions say about that particular passage having an impact on the end times?

Q, you must have misunderstood my question. Deuteronomy 31:9-13, what do those institutions say about that particular passage having an impact on the end times?

For the past 80 years, my studies have been focused on the Scriptures, not on man made belief systems. My teachings are delivered in the same way. The subject of the thread has nothing at all to do with your question, which I will not be doing any research on at all. The passage is addressed to Israel, not the Church. Applying the belief the Church is Israel, is a non-Scriptural heresy.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

You are pretty spot on, on all things except that Rev. 12 passage............

So what is it about my views you don't believe, pertaining to Rev.12?


Quasar92

 

[Revealing Times]

So what is it about my views you don't believe, pertaining to Rev.12?

Quasar92

We discussed this on that thread a bit. I can't remember exactly, but you were on the kick about it being in the Stars I think, you might want to run down your old thread and see.

My take is this, Rev. 12 is a Prophecy from verse 6-17, God doesn't give us prophesies about past events, the first five verses were to set up the ENCODED PROPHECY in the later part of the chapter. It has nothing to do with STARS in the Heavens. Its about the 12 Brothers/Sons of Jacob. We are to infer the 12 Stars of Jacob (Sun) and Rachel (Moon) are in fact Israel in full.

The Prophecy is about Israel fleeing unto the Wilderness for 1260 Days. Its about nothing else really, except Satan being cast out of heaven.

 

[Quasar92]

Dallas Theological, Birthed by C.I. Scofield The Adulterer, And his Prodigy Lewis Sperry Chaffer.

Possibly you are unaware Scofield abandoned his wife Leotine and two daughters, and married a girl in his Dallas Sunday School class, yes he was the teacher, several years senior

Yes Scofield was a false teacher of prophecy, that you and many others follow today.

Don't forget Ernest L. Martin, from Herbert W. Armstrong's " "Cult" World Wide Church Of God, as you have recommended persons to read his books.

As Jesus once said, "Let he who has sinned not, cast the first stone," at an adulterous woman. Your affinity to criticize others and post ongoing non-scriptural views that have been repeatedly Scripturally refuted, is in and of itself, the caliber of your M/O.

FYI, Scofield had nothing whatever to do with Dallas Theological Seminary. And FYI, many of the Observatories in the U.S., including the Griffith Parl Observatory, in Los Angeles, CA., adopted the late Earnest Martin's researched astronomical findings on the Star of Bethlehem, what it was and of the heavenly signs pointing to the exact time of Jesus birth, for their Christmas exhibits.

It is my endeavor to honor anyone who contributes to the truthful knowledge of any subject. Their personal lives is an issue between them and God.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

We discussed this on that thread a bit. I can't remember exactly, but you were on the kick about it being in the Stars I think, you might want to run down your old thread and see.

My take is this, Rev. 12 is a Prophecy from verse 6-17, God doesn't give us prophesies about past events, the first five verses were to set up the ENCODED PROPHECY in the later part of the chapter. It has nothing to do with STARS in the Heavens. Its about the 12 Brothers/Sons of Jacob. We are to infer the 12 Stars of Jacob (Sun) and Rachel (Moon) are in fact Israel in full.

The Prophecy is about Israel fleeing unto the Wilderness for 1260 Days. Its about nothing else really, except Satan being cast out of heaven.

There are two wonders in the heavens, in Rev.12. What I have been posting is about the first on, in verses 1-2. You can review one of my posts about it at my site, in the link below. It is also the sign of the Son of Man, Jesus referred to in Mt.24:30.

The great and wonderous sign in heaven - The Birth of Jesus: Scripturally connected by Mt.24:30 and Rev.12:1-2 - a deeper walk...


Quasar92

 

[Truth7t7]

As Jesus once said, "Let he who has sinned not, cast the first stone," at an adulterous woman. Your affinity to criticize others and post ongoing non-scriptural views that have been repeatedly Scripturally refuted, is in and of itself, the caliber of your M/O.

FYI, Scofield had nothing whatever to do with Dallas Theological Seminary. And FYI, many of the Observatories in the U.S., including the Griffith Parl Observatory, in Los Angeles, CA., adopted the late Earnest Martin's researched astronomical findings on the Star of Bethlehem, what it was and of the heavenly signs pointing to the exact time of Jesus birth, for their Christmas exhibits.

It is my endeavor to honor anyone who contributes to the truthful knowledge of any subject. Their personal lives is an issue between them and God.


Quasar92

Lewis S. Chaffer founder of Dallas Theological was a student of and mentored by the very infamous C.I. Scofield, Chaffer went to the church Scofield Pastored in Dallas, Scofield had very much to do with the founder and founding of Dallas theological and Lewis S. Chaffer.

Its no secret private life Ernest L. Martin received his degree from the unaccredited "Cult" of Herbert W. Armstrong,

Jesus wasn't born on December 25th a pagan Roman holiday, Saturnalia in the winter solstice.

 

[Polar Bear Quest]

Even though the "FAITH" is spoken of nowhere in the passage and a definite article was used which points to a known entity in the passage, so thus FAITH it can not be because it was never mentioned in the passage, NOT ONE TIME. But the Gathering together unto Christ before the Day of the Lord is mentioned. (RAPTURE/DEPARTURE of the Church).

Just the facts please. Sgt. Joe Friday

Read the lead up to verse 3 carefully. If something is disconcerting or alarming it might cause one to lose faith. Faith doesn't need to be mentioned. Now with this in mind it becomes clear that the "day of the Lord" will not come until a rebellion occurs. That rebellion or "falling away" is many moving away from the faith.

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.

 

[Douggg]

For the past 80 years, my studies have been focused on the Scriptures, not on man made belief systems. My teachings are delivered in the same way. The subject of the thread has nothing at all to do with your question, which I will not be doing any research on at all. The passage is addressed to Israel, not the Church. Applying the belief the Church is Israel, is a non-Scriptural heresy.


Quasar92

Q, I was not inferring to the the church is Israel theory. Deuteronomy 31:9-13 has nothing to do with that assertion. What I am trying to show you is that you are parroting what those institutions teach - which is basically the collected thoughts by some theologians. And those theologians errantly think the covenant is Daniel 9:27 is a peace treaty of some sort.

 

[Douggg]

So in essence you LIMIT Gods vocabulary, the GREAT TRIBULATION is the 2000 year Church Age. 2000 (Church Age) is Greater than 7 years (Jacobs Troubles).

Those Sealed are the Jews who Flee unto the Wilderness, it signifies God is protecting them, SEALED THEM unto Himself. the numbers 12 are used to signify fullness.

RT, you acknowledge that them sealed in Revelation 7 are Jews - before the great tribulation, the plagues in the trumpets and bowls, begin. Yet them, seen in heaven coming out of Great Tribulation in the same chapter - does not refer to the great tribulation before which the Jews are sealed - is not the Great Tribulation, but them coming out of the 2000 year church age.

 

[Revealing Times]

Read the lead up to verse 3 carefully. If something is disconcerting or alarming it might cause one to lose faith. Faith doesn't need to be mentioned. Now with this in mind it becomes clear that the "day of the Lord" will not come until a rebellion occurs. That rebellion or "falling away" is many moving away from the faith.

This is a stretch in my honest opinion, because there isn't a leg to stand on. Christians were being killed, dying for ones FAITH was a common thing in that era, I noticed you used a bible other than the KJV or as I like the Holman bible at times but you seemingly have used the Berean Study Bible to get a phrase that I guess you think fits, but I will use the KJV and the Holman just to stay in the norm. I don't like picking and choosing bibles to get a desired phrase.

(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled (That the Day of the Lord is going to come upon them), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away(Departure of he Church/See above GATHERING UNTO CHRIST) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(HCSB) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled (That the Day of the Lord is going to HIT THEM), either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy (DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

So the facts are the facts, they FEARED the Day of the Lord falling on them, and thus Paul reassured them that THAT DAY (Day of the Lord/Gods Wrath) will not fall on them, because the Church will DEPART FIRST (Be Gathered unto the Lord), then the Anti-Christ will come forth or be revealed unto the world.

You are just creating the "FAITH DEPARTURE" out of thin air brother. Its not there, this passage is very obvious to me, IF we put down our preconceived men's traditions.

 

[jgr]

You are just creating the "FAITH DEPARTURE" out of thin air brother. Its not there, this passage is very obvious to me, IF we put down our preconceived men's traditions.

The view of apostasy as rapture was first introduced in 1895 by J. S. Mabie.

It's a modernist preconceived man's tradition.

 

[Revealing Times]

RT, you acknowledge that them sealed in Revelation 7 are Jews - before the great tribulation,

No, this happens just before the MIDWAY point which is the [GREATEST TROUBLES/onward's] but all Seven Years are Jacobs Troubles.

the plagues in the trumpets and bowls, begin.

I see all the Judgments as Gods Wrath, the Seals/Trumpets and the Vials.

Yet them, seen in heaven coming out of Great Tribulation in the same chapter - does not refer to the great tribulation before which the Jews are sealed - is not the Great Tribulation, but them coming out of the 2000 year church age.

That is because you can see them in Heaven over a Seven Year Period. When you see them here they are already Marred to the Lamb. When you first are told of them in Rev. ch. 19, they have not yet married the Lamb, thus my point, the Rev. 19 chapter is a FULL SEVEN YEAR Period of the Church in Heaven. Whereas Chapters 4, 5 and 7 are partial glimpses of activities going in in Heaven during the Seven Years. (You could have, BUT WE DON'T SEE IT, but you could have been shown the Church in Heaven during the Seven Vials in Rev. 16 if God had wanted to show us that, and it would have been very close to the end). So we see the Church in Heaven with John speaking unto them right after Israel has FLED unto the Wilderness. I do not get why that is an issue.

The 2000 year Church age ends with the Rapture, thus those seen in Heaven in chapter 7 are the Church Age Saints who came out of the 2000 YEAR TRIBULATION Period. Get with the program Douggg. When my book comes out I am going to be world renowned.....

 

[Oldmantook]

You have had an example of Jesus addressing His disciples, [all believers] telling them He was coming back for them and take them to the Father in heaven, recorded in Jn.14>2-3 and 28.

In Mt.24:30, He was addressing Israel. As such, it is necessary in the interpretation of the Scriptures to understand who is being addressed. Israel has been decreed to go through the tribulation, because as a nation, they are still in denial of Jesus being their messiah, until He returns in His second cming, recorded in Zech.12:10.


Quasar92

Your response is problematic in that it completely ignores when Jesus himself stated that he will return as a thief which is what all rapture teachers promote. All rapture teachers/adherents believe that Jesus at the rapture returns silently as a thief before the tribulation. You claim that Jesus in Matt 24 returns for the Jews at his Second Coming since the rapture for the church has already occurred. How can that possibly be when Jesus stated he COMES AS AS THIEF right before the BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON? Do you claim that Jesus returns twice as a thief? If he comes back again as a thief at his Second Coming how is that a surprise? How is that an invisible event when all shall see Jesus appearing in the clouds at his Second Coming? Please explain.

 

[Douggg]

No, this happens just before the MIDWAY point which is the [GREATEST TROUBLES/onward's] but all Seven Years are Jacobs Troubles.

From the bible, what says all seven years are Jacobs troubles?

 

[Douggg]

The 2000 year Church age ends with the Rapture, thus those seen in Heaven in chapter 7 are the Church Age Saints who came out of the 2000 YEAR TRIBULATION Period. Get with the program Douggg. When my book comes out I am going to be world renowned.....

So now you have coined the 2000 year church age - the 2000 year tribulation period - reading into Revelation 7? sheesh. In lieu of what the text says - "Great Tribulation.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is a stretch in my honest opinion, because there isn't a leg to stand on. Christians were being killed, dying for ones FAITH was a common thing in that era, I noticed you used a bible other than the KJV or as I like the Holman bible at times but you seemingly have used the Berean Study Bible to get a phrase that I guess you think fits, but I will use the KJV and the Holman just to stay in the norm. I don't like picking and choosing bibles to get a desired phrase.

(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled (That the Day of the Lord is going to come upon them), neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away(Departure of he Church/See above GATHERING UNTO CHRIST) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(HCSB) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled (That the Day of the Lord is going to HIT THEM), either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy (DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

So the facts are the facts, they FEARED the Day of the Lord falling on them, and thus Paul reassured them that THAT DAY (Day of the Lord/Gods Wrath) will not fall on them, because the Church will DEPART FIRST (Be Gathered unto the Lord), then the Anti-Christ will come forth or be revealed unto the world.

You are just creating the "FAITH DEPARTURE" out of thin air brother. Its not there, this passage is very obvious to me, IF we put down our preconceived men's traditions.

No the church is not raptured in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

There is apostasy as the church departs from the faith.

Gonna have to find your pre-trib rapture somewhere else.

 

[Revealing Times]

No the church is not raptured in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

There is apostasy as the church departs from the faith.

Gonna have to find your pre-trib rapture somewhere else.

Wrong