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Featured What does "except there come a falling away first" in 2 Thess. 2:3 mean?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    Except the NIV accepts the KJV that it is a Departure of the Faith, but that is not the SUBJECT of the letter. Someone please show me where "FAITH" is spoken of anywhere in the passage !! The facts are its the Body of Christ/Church that is being spoken of, as pertaining to the "Gathering unto Christ before the Day of the Lord" so what must DEPART? The Church of course is what is being spoken of, NOT THE FAITH. (Never mentioned)

    Paul uses a Definite Article, meaning the Departure is BY SOMETHING that Paul is pointing towards, and the only thing that fits is the Church which is spoken of as being Gathered unto the the Lord Jesus before the Coming Wrath of God (DOTL).

    The first 7 English Translations had the word DEPARTURE, the KJV changed it, some think they were taking a swipe at their counterpart the RCC with the FALLING AWAY. (From 400-1400) The Latin Vulgate used the word DISCESSIO which means DEPARTURE.

    So there is no FALLING AWAY, it is the Departure of the CHURCH.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  2. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Saved by the blood of the Lamb Supporter

    United States
    Opinion noted.
  3. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    Well, I like to think of the church history as a re-play of the histories of Israel and Judah in the scriptures. The falling away would be the captivity, since we've already seen the divided kingdom via the EO-RCC split, or via the reformation, it's hard to say when the great falling away will happen as a house divided against itself cannot stand.
    Also after the falling away a leader is supposed to rise up, the man whose thoughts are completely consumed by sin, since sin is magnified by the law, it seems likely, that the scattered groups will continue to become more and more rule oriented until they cannot be guided by the holy spirit at all, and then one embodying their will oriented life style will arise from among them as their political messiah.
  4. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

    When I hear this verse I can see it both ways because these concepts of end times being a time of false doctrine and false teachers are expressed clearly in other passages as well as the passages that imply something being taken away before the man of sin is revealed.
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Don't argue with me. Argue with Paul, the early Church, the Reformers, the Greek Christians, the NASB translators, more than 50 existing Bible translations.

    Argue with Darby and Scofield. If anyone should have known better, it should have been them.

    You'll have to exhume them first.
  6. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    That could be true, because in the end times there will be people receiving of false doctrines etc. etc. and Satan knows this, thus him being VERY WISE, puts forth untruths or half truths to deceive the masses. "Thou shalt not SURELY DIE"

    But the facts are not in question, the DEFINITE ARTICLE is used by Paul, and that was not needed, s Paul was pointing towards something he was speaking about. And no where in the passage is FAITH spoken about, but the Church (body of Christ) being Gathered unto the Lord, before the Day of the Lord was the whole subject of the passage. So the word used is not doubt Departure and its the Church that DEPARTS before the Anti-Christ comes forth. BELOW IS AN OLD BLOG OF MINE:

    Is the "Falling Away a false teaching?

    I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

    “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

    Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

    The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

    This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

    They were as follows:

    1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

    2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

    3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

    4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

    5. The Great Bible (1540)

    6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

    7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

    Mr. Ice also noted that the bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

    One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

    Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

    In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

    And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

    I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around long before 1611.
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Those were the translations of the Reformers.

    To a man, the Reformers declared that the apostate papacy, under which the true Church had already been suffering for hundreds of years, was antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition.

    There had been no rapture.

    The "departure" in the Reformers' translations referred to a departure from the faith, which they confirmed with the benefit of 20/20 historical prophetic hindsight.
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    So for the sake of argument let's agree that the use of the definitive article "the" references an event commonly known as the rapture or departure of the church. The next question would then be when does the rapture occur? We are told that the rapture is a secret, invisible event when Jesus comes as a thief for his saints which occurs before the tribulation but is that what the Bible teaches? Jesus himself stated:
    “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Rev 16:15-16.
    Jesus stated that he will come as a thief, rapture/departure, at the time frame of Armageddon which takes place after the great tribulation and not before the tribulation as the rapture teachers falsely promote. The rapture is the Second Coming - one event, not two.
  9. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    The Rapture is not the Second Coming, else why would anyone be surprised? We see the Plagues counting down, we would see the gathering forces in Meggido (Armageddon) and thus no one would be taken by surprise, because they can all see the real time events and count down the Vials of Gods Wrath. The thief on the night, IMHO, when read properly is more about Jesus telling us not to be caught in the DARK (When thieves strike) but to stay in the light (In Christ). Hes coming to take away Satan's authority.

    I find that when many scriptures point one way, and we have people who take ONE VERSE like this, which doesn't follow the narrative/direction of the many verse its usually just MANKIND being ill informed, confused, or missing the proper translation. EXAMPLE BELOW:

    In Rev. 7 we see that the Saints are in Heaven and John is told these are they which came out of the Great Tribulation. This always seemed out of sorts with my pre-tribulation Rapture understanding, but I knew every scripture pointed to a pre-tribulation Rapture so I fully assumed that I was missing something somewhere. Lo and behold God/Holy Spirit gave it to me a few months back.

    We......I have pigeon holed Gods use of vocabulary, I have insisted (in my thinking) that the Great Tribulation can only mean the Troubles of Jacob's period when Jesus stated that the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER will haunt the world and its inhabitants. But the facts are, the whole 2000 year Church Age period is considered TRIBULATIONS, all of the Disciples save John were Martyred, Rome killed many, MANY, Christians, Islam has killed and captured many a Christian for the last 1400 years and John said this in Revelation.

    Rev. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    So why do we insist the GREAT TRIBULATION spoken of in Rev. chapter 7 is the last Seven Year Period of troubles? It is really John saying the Church in Heaven came out of the 2000 year Tribulation period. And 2000>7 is of course GREATER THAN SEVEN !!

    Now it makes perfect sense.

    Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation (2000 Year Church Age/RAPTURED Pre-trib), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Now we understand the Saints under the Alter in Seal #5 better also, they are told they must wait until their brothers had been killed also. MEANING until the Beasts reign f terror is over at Vial number 7.

    Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Their MURDERERS are ON EARTH/Present tense)

    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    So those under the Alter are the Seven Year Tribulation Saints, they e raised after Jesus returns with the Church in tow (Rev 19) and they are the BEHEADED who serve with Christ 1000 years.

    The Church that was Raptured pre-trib Marry the Lamb in Heaven, then return with Jesus on White Horses as Rev. 19 says. We are the GREAT MULTITUDE that came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION or the Church Age (2000>7).
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    If I understand you correctly, you are reasoning that the rapture must take place pre-70th week because it must be before the person reveals himself as the man of sin?

    Even so, how would that translate to the Rapture having to be pre-70th week? The Antichrist does not commit the transgression of desolation until sometime in the middle of 70th week - revealing himself as the man of sin at that point.

    The Rapture may not happen until after the 70th week begins.

    The criteria Q is not when it becomes apparent the person is the Antichrist - but when the person goes into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    No it does not, RT. Great Tribulation in Revelation 7 is the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, that begins when the Abomination of Desolation is setup to be worshiped.

    It is not 7 years tribulation period anyway. That terminology comes from commentators, not the bible. So you are comparing a non-biblical term of 7 years tribulation to 2000 years tribulation - and reaching a erroneous conclusion, because you started with faulty information to begin with.

    The first half of the 7 years, for most of it, will not be a tribulation period, because the world will be saying peace and safety.
  12. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you wish but Jesus plainly stated when he will return as a thief in Rev 16:15-16. There is no need to fit what Jesus himself taught with the rest of scripture; rather the rest of the scriptures which refer to his return must conform to what Jesus said in Rev 16:15-16. Furthermore, the Bible itself does not distinguish between pretrib and tribulation saints. In simply states the saints. The term tribulation saints is a made-up term manufactured in order to support the pretrib teaching. Since Jesus plainly stated that he will return as a thief which we know means the "rapture" right before the battle of Armageddon, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
  14. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    The 70th Week is about WHO Douggg? Israel repenting. You have to look at the bible as one big puzzle. We have to go precept by precept, line upon line, here a little there a little, in order to GET IT. Now does the bible tell us in so many words that the Gentile Church goes to Heaven for the 70th Week? Yes, if we LISTEN.

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Within the Word of God is the pattern of the Church as the Bride of Christ (hereafter noted as Church) being wed to Jesus, and it is preserved to this day in the practice of the traditional Jewish wedding (hereafter noted as Jewish Wedding). This is not to say that the Church has replaced Israel in the Lord’s plan; quite the opposite. Please see Romans 11:11-18, and 11:25-26.

    There are two brides found in Scripture, and Rachel and Leah show us this. Please see Leah, the bride and Leah's children.

    The Lord told Israel,

    "I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

    So God turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

    The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and First-fruits. Jesus fulfilled all of these:

    There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

    The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

    1 – Selection of the Bride
    Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
    Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

    2 – The Bride Price established
    Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
    Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

    We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

    The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

    Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22. (Church Age)

    Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

    The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

    3 – The Betrothal
    Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
    Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

    4 – The Marriage Contract
    Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
    Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

    5 – The Bride must consent
    Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
    Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

    6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
    Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
    Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)

    Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
    Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

    7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
    Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
    Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

    The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

    8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
    Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

    The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

    9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
    Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

    10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
    Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

    When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

    11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
    Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

    Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days (7 Years in Heaven).

    12 – The Marriage Supper
    Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

    In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

    I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

    The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel. Just after the Church is called home to the marriage chambers.

    Israel is back on the Clock, the Church of Christ has been raptured to be with the Lord in heaven. Now Israel must finish out their cycle, the church is in Heaven marrying the lamb, now the other bride must complete calling.

    Israel atones (Feast of atonement)

    Israel tabernacles with God (1000 year reign) Feast of Tabernacle.
  15. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    And you are entitled to believe as you wish, but I look at all of the Scriptures in total. There can be no Rev. ch. 19 without a pre-tribulation rapture.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  16. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    No it is not, who are you to tell John/Jesus they can't use the word GREAT in different manners for different things? There is a GREATEST TROUBLES EVER which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24, that is about a Seven Year Period of time, the GREATEST TROUBLES Jesus mentions is not quite the full Seven Years but the period of time is noted as Jacobs Troubles, its the FULL SEVEN YEARS, the Peace period is also perilous for Israel because they are forced into a Peace they do not want with the Anti-Christ. The Great Tribulation John is writing about is the 2000 year period of Tribulation that all the Disciples were killed in. You can not keep John from calling a 2000 year period GREATER than a 7 Year period. Why are you trying to limit his vocabulary? ALL 2000 YEARS IS TRIBULATION, 2000 years is greater than 7. Sorry Doug, you have to look at the facts, and it is the CHURCH that came out of the Great Tribulation. The BEHEADED are resurrected after Jesus returns with the church in Rev. 19.

    Jacobs Troubles is a Seven Year Period, however you can call it 3.5 years, 1 year no years, its still not the GREAT TRIBULATION John is speaking about in Rev. chapter 7.

    A forced PEACE is still TROUBLES.
  17. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    ancient greek... its departure 1st then can also mean falling away. What was being talked about BEFORE verse chapters? Now I can see if we read it by it self one can take it to seem like many will fall away. I have read here people think this is happening now. But.. where is happening? Mid late 2015 I seen over a MILLION at one time give there life to Christ. Then we have the Muslim world.. Asian world.. MORE people are coming to Christ then ever before!

    Peter said.. this great out pouring has started.. Thats where I STARTED. When the sweet sweet Holy Spirit fell .. that was not the end lol.. thats when it was birthed so to speak. EVERYTHING the Father does GROWS ..never dies. He can not ever create death. Yes.. something will depart for this is written. YOU and I have a personal say in that. YOU and I made the choice. To believe or not.
  18. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

    United States
    I just want to share a reference from the writings of John that I think goes well with the quote from Paul:

    1 John 2:
    18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.​

    2 Thessalonians 2:
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come an apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

    These seem to go together. Thanks for reading!
  19. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    As I wrote before, all of the scriptures in total must be reconciled with what Jesus plainly stated; not the other way around. I take Jesus at his word as to when he said he'll return. What you choose to believe is your prerogative. Jesus never mentioned he will come twice - once at the rapture and again at his second coming. He only described his return as a single event. If he comes back twice, one would think that he would mention such an important detail wouldn't we? Maybe he forgot?
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    In Matthew 24,

    Jesus doesn't say seven year period of time. He says when the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet is standing in a holy place.

    Jesus did not give a quantitative amount of time. The amount of time is found in Daniel 12:11-12, as 1335 days - which is a little more than half of the 7 years. Not 7 years.

    Where in the bible does it say the time of Jacob's Troubles is seven years?

    RT, you come up with some off the wall idea - and try to turn it around as though it is me trying to change the phrase great tribulation ? really?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017