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Featured What does "except there come a falling away first" in 2 Thess. 2:3 mean?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This passage has been the subject of much controversy, as to whether this speaks of a period of great "apostasy", or whether it refers to the "departure", or "Rapture" of the Church.

    I believe the KJV phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, refers to the "departure", or "Rapture" of the Church.

    The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".

    The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".

    Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".

    "Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods.

    "Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses.

    "Apostasion", the noun form, appears in Matt 5:31, & 19:7, and Mark 10:4 where it describes a "writing of divorcement", or "papers that separate". (Again, so someone can go away).

    "Apostasia" literally then means "to depart, or go away from", and to "go away from what" must be determined from the context.

    So, what is the "context" of both the First and Second Epistle to the Church at Thessalonica? The sole subject and context of both epistles is the "Rapture", or "Departure" of the Church, or "the called out ones," and advice to the Church while we await the Return of Christ for the Church. The Second letter to the Church at Thessalonica appears to have been written by Paul to clear up misunderstandings about his First Letter. (2 Thess. 2:1-5)

    The Greek word "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 also has the Greek article "the" in front of it, in the Greek text, which makes it, not a general "going away", or "departure", but "The Departure", a special EVENT, that the reader is expected to already know about.

    In other words, the use of the article "the" with "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 indicates that Paul expects the Thessalonian Christians to already understand that this is the title of an event, and he expects them to already know what it means.

    Had the Apostle Paul already taught the Thessalonians about an "EVENT" that could be described as a "departure", or "going away"? Absolutely, yes.

    Paul had already taught the Thessalonian Church about the EVENT, of the Catching Away and "Departure" of the Church in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

    In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember? When I was with you I taught you about these things?

    I don't see where Paul taught them at all about "a falling away from the truth" in his first letter, but he taught them about the Rapture of the church in at least five passages in 1st Thessalonians:

    1. 1 Thess 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

    2. 1 Thess 2:19 "For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"

    3. 1 Thess 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    4. 1 Thess 4:13 - 5:10:

    Verse 13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


    Quasar92
     
  2. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Saved by grace

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    The NIV makes it a little easier to understand as it is linked with the phrase before it and and after it:

    3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
     
  3. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi david,

    Man, that picture of Sean Connery is how I generally think of him. Suave and handsome in his rugged Scottish way.

    I agree that the falling away precedes the rapture according to this statement of the Scriptures.

    God bless,
    In Christ, ted
     
  4. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    According to my Strong's Concordance Greek dictionary, the word "falling" can mean "defection". And another word like it can mean "divorce" or "separation". I see that how a scholar already believes can effect which definition he or she might choose to claim. Plus, I see how I could use the context to fit with either a pre-trib or a post-trib idea.

    But Jesus Himself does spell out, in plain words, what will happen "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" . . . Matthew chapter 24.
     
  5. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    It is a spiritual truth being revealed within, not to do with this world, nor a far off physical departure...The duality within is promised to brought to an end. While it exists, there is an adversary/that which is opposed to all that is God...hence the battle Paul speaks about in Romans. Two at odds within...that must narrow down to ONE.

    Our perception of who God is changes throughout the process taking place within. In our own mind we tend to build/create an image of what (and who) we think God is which is... not the revealed by the spirit Truth of who He is and who we are, a son as truly as Christ is (the firstborn among many brethren)...
     
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You didn't read my OP or you would have had the answer for your above views Review the following translation history of 2 Thess.2:3:

    In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

    Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
    The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign here on earth].


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017 at 11:16 PM
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  7. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that looks more like it.

    I don't think so. This is not about the rapture. I don't mind if you're pretrib, but if you're getting this wrong, you're telling people that this is still in the future. People will miss the rebellion, if the rebellion is happening now. In fact, we are probably in the "latter part" of it. Paul is talking about a rebellion. A rebellion so huge that so many are involved, they encompass such a large community of people that they have become, without realizing it, a kingdom. A kingdom of rebels. Paul was drawing from Daniel 8:

    "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.​

    Here is where you're getting warm. And before you get agitated, this is not about being saved by the law, this is not about legalism.

    They weren't just Moses' "teachings". Moses was the teacher of the Law, the Word of God.They were actually God's "teachings".

    Our end time man of sin has attempted to take over God's instructions by influencing the shift in morality and the trend in increased lawlessness. "Anti" can also mean "in place of".

    God said: "Remember the Sabbath","You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery", "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination" and "do not mark your skin with tattoos"..

    Man of sin says: forget about the Sabbath, legalize pornography, legalize abortion, legalize same sex marriage and have a sexual revolution.

    Jesus said that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Guys are sitting in tattoo parlors and bars watching live porn on big screen TVs and the majority of the population thinks it's funny or cool. We are here.

    When the Man of Sin seeks to change these specific times and these particular Laws, he by default has magnified himself above all that is called God or is worshiped and has set himself up in God's "seat" of authority in God's Temple thereby claiming to BE God.

    What do you think Paul would say if he could see our time now. What if he could see a guy drop off his girlfriend at an abortion clinic, then go across the street and sit there drinking a beer with spider web tattoos up and down his forearms, while watching strippers dancing on the stage with live porn streaming on the TV screens. And none of this is against the "law'.

    "Worship" comes from the word "proskuneo" and can also mean to "submit to" or "to obey". And he has been at work on this for a long time using various human agents but make no mistake it has been Satan's hand inside the glove.

    I know that this is a stressful subject for some to confront. I'm just thinking out loud here but I'm thinking that this is where we are right now with our end time Antichrist. His 42 months of authority has begun, he has already opened his mouth to blaspheme God, but he's in a predicament. He can't be revealed until the 5th trumpet, so he's been working continuously and as fast as he can behind the scenes to cause the "rebellion" to reach and exceed it's limit.

    This is how he is able to rise up to the Prince of the host, to the Place of His Sanctuary. He knows the sooner he completes this task the sooner that the sudden destruction will fall from Heaven which will enable his debut. He is trying to get the censer cast down from Revelation 8. This is how he causes fire to fall from Heaven in the presence of men. Through influencing the "falling away" or the "rebellion" on Earth he provokes the initial outbreak of God's Wrath in the form of the first trumpet.

    Sorry man, that's how it's looking to me.

    I don't think we have much time left.

    We are here now.
     
  8. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Saved by grace

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    You are taking a simple scripture and making it complicated. I was simply simplifying it.
     
  9. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1 Thess.3:12-17 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 are the specific teachings of Paul about the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Review the Scriptural facts in the following:

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

    Beginning with Mt.24:31:
    [/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

    Lk.21:36:
    "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
    "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

    "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

    The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
    "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

    1 Thes.4:13-18:
    The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

    "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

    "According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

    Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

    "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

    "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

    "Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

    2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

    The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

    In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

    Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
    The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

    Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

    "He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

    The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
    In verse 7:

    "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

    The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

    In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

    The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

    From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


    Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


    The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

    http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


    Quasar92
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

    3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

    Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

    Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

    Wycliffe himself identified the man of sin as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


    And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
    Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
    Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
    Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
    Beza was also of like persuasion.

    There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

    A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

    Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
    "In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

    Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

    Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

    Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

    Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

    Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

    2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

    The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3



    The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

    "Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

    Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

    History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.
     
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The NIV is the only Bible that uses the term rebellion.in 2 Thess.2:3. Most of the rest of them use the mistranslation of the context, with either apostasy or falling away, which are other meanings for the Greek word, apostasia, beside departure or to depart.

    From the Septuagint to the translation to the Vulgate by Jerome in the 4th century, 2 Thess.2:3, into the 17th century, the first seven English translations of the Bible translated the Greek term apostasia as departure. Because the context is about a rapture, not a falling away of the Church. Verse 1 is the theme of the context consisting of verses 2 Thess.2:1-8, with the statement: "...about our Lord, Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him...," which is direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where Jesus returns for the Church, which will be CAUGHT UP to Him, in the sky. From where He will take them to our Father in heaven, as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

    Verse 7 confirms it with the statement: "...he who restrains will continue to do so, until he is taken out of the way...," confirming verse 3, where the departure will occur before the man of lawlessness is revealed, in the same way Paul confirmed it in verses 7-8. Where the man of lawlessness is revealed after the Church is taken out of the way

    Show me your Scripturally based argument, where "rebellion" has any part in the context of 2 Thess.2:1-8.


    Quasar92.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  12. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Post #9, consisting of the translation history of 2 Thess.2:3, from the time Paul wrote it, through the 17th century, where the first seven English translations of the Bible, all used the Greek and Latin terms of, APOSTASIA and DISCESSIO. Both of which mean DEPARTURE. The theme of the 2 Thess.2:1-8 context is in the first verse, which says, "...About our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..." Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where Jesus has returned for His Church, in verse 16, where it is CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air. From where He will take them to our Father in heaven, as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

    The passage of Scripture in 2 Thess.2:1-8 is about a rapture, not an apostasy or a falling away, as the translation history posted in #9 reveals, refute you.


    Quasar92
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Departure as rapture is not found in a single contemporary English Bible translation in existence, including Darby and Scofield.

    I contacted the Lockman Foundation, producers of the acclaimed NASB translation.

    NASB translators' comments on the article in which Thomas Ice attempts to remake 2 Thess. 2:3 in the modernist dispensational image:

    The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

    It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3.
     
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  14. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    Duality within, (Paul speaks about in Romans...the battle between the two) some do not 'see' it (yet) and settle into the belief that one is destined to always be a sorry sinner...though scripture promises victory and overcoming...the truth is found within us through process/journey of soul...separation...a scattering to gather in again...the truth narrowed down to one.

    Hebrew 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Seed within a seed...one must die/decrease, the other increase/grow into a tree of life/a kingdom within/in our midst...a son...

    The difference between double-minded and single of eye...and the question asked in the garden "Where art thou?" and the call to "Come out of her"... Perception change...
     
  15. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Saved by grace

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    I don't need to. The NIV is my stand.
     
  16. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The purpose of Paul's second epistle to the Thessalonians, was to assure them of the pre-trib rapture of the Church and when it would take place, as I have previously shown by Scripture in post #9. 2 Yhess.2:1-8 is an amplification of 1 Thess.4:16-17, in which the theme is in 2 Thess.2:1!

    Post #9, consisting of the translation history of 2 Thess.2:3, from the time Paul wrote it, through the 17th century, where the first seven English translations of the Bible, all used the Greek and Latin terms of, APOSTASIA and DISCESSIO. Both of which mean DEPARTURE. The theme of the 2 Thess.2:1-8 context is in the first verse, which says, "...About our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..." Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where Jesus has returned for His Church, in verse 16, where it is CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air. From where He will take them to our Father in heaven, as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

    The passage of Scripture in 2 Thess.2:1-8 is about a rapture, not an apostasy or a falling away, as the translation history posted in #9 reveals, refute you.

    FYI, you are posting non-scriptural material and falsifying the translation history attempting to field your argument from an empty wagon. Let me see you prove anything in post #9 to be false, as well as your claim the passage of Scripture in 2 Thess.2:1-8 means APOSTASY, by Scripture, or your views are false.


    Quasar92
     
  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    then you apparently could care less when translation errors in the NIV are exposed, as I previously showed you, as recorded below:

    From the Septuagint to the translation of the Vulgate by Jerome in the 4th century, 2 Thess.2:3, into the 17th century, the first seven English translations of the Bible translated the Greek term apostasia as departure. Because the context is about a rapture, not a falling away of the Church. Verse 1 is the theme of the context consisting of verses 2 Thess.2:1-8, with the statement: "...about our Lord, Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him...," which is direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where Jesus returns for the Church, which will be CAUGHT UP to Him, in the sky. From where He will take them to our Father in heaven, as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

    Verse 7 confirms it with the statement: "...he who restrains will continue to do so, until he is taken out of the way...," confirming verse 3, where the departure will occur before the man of lawlessness is revealed, in the same way Paul confirmed it in verses 7-8. Where the man of lawlessness is revealed after the Church is taken out of the way


    Quasar92
     
  18. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Saved by grace

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    Your opinion is noted.
     
  19. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture quoted in Post #17, is verification of my opinions.


    Quasar92
     
  20. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Saved by grace

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    Opinion noted.
     
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