What does "except there come a falling away first" in 2 Thess. 2:3 mean?

[Dave Watchman]

Looking at the pictures preserved on the walls of Pompeii or the archaeological find of an ancient Egyptian papyrus, both depicting equivalent acts about sex. Also as far as I know the temple of Aphrodite with its' temple prostitution wasn't raising any moral concerns within the Roman judicial system either. Paul could say the technology has changed but the people have not. They still like to visually advertise their sexual indulgences as part of doing business.

There you go. Next time I doubt there will be anyone to see the remains of the inventions that our society has dreamed up.

The people haven't changed, but their numbers have reached the limit. I know that murders, adulteries, homosexuality and sexual immorality have existed from Paul's day and prior. It's just that now it's gone global and has been given the lawful approval of most of the large governments. But there's some other specification that's impossible for me to quantify, it's beyond my pay grade.

"In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.​

One translation reads: "when the transgressors have reached their limit".

God has set a limit, it's the full cup principal. It's happened before on the regional level, now it's gone global.

God was planning to give Abraham the promised land. But He delayed due to the people living there having not yet reached their "limit'.

"In the fourth generation your descendants will return here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its limit."​

But when they DID reach the "limit' that God had set for them, it was GAME OVER, no quarter.

Here we go again.

But this time it's gone global.

Just like the days of Noah, like the days of Lot.

Like on the day that Lot left out from Sodom.

"But on the day when Lot went out from Sodom,
fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all
— so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
​

I'm Sorry.

I believe that this is happening right before our eyes.

I'm afraid that we don't have very much time left.

Looking at the pictures preserved on the walls of Pompeii or the archaeological find of an ancient Egyptian papyrus, both depicting equivalent acts about sex.

Looking at the pictures preserved on the covers of our popular magazines.

​

“Arise, cry out in the night, at the beginning of the night watches! Pour out your heart like water before the presence of the Lord! Lift your hands to him for the lives of your children, who faint for hunger at the head of every street.”
​

They're starving for a famine of the Word.

 

[Quasar92]

You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you wish but Jesus plainly stated when he will return as a thief in Rev 16:15-16. There is no need to fit what Jesus himself taught with the rest of scripture; rather the rest of the scriptures which refer to his return must conform to what Jesus said in Rev 16:15-16. Furthermore, the Bible itself does not distinguish between pretrib and tribulation saints. In simply states the saints. The term tribulation saints is a made-up term manufactured in order to support the pretrib teaching. Since Jesus plainly stated that he will return as a thief which we know means the "rapture" right before the battle of Armageddon, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

The fact of the matter is, the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church comes from Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as documented in the following:

THE TRANSLATION HISTORY OF 2 THESS.2:3

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place BEFORE the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign here on earth].

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

BIBLICAL TEACHING OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH [Four post link]

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

God qualifies me. Who qualifies you?

The Holy Spirit taught me and gave me the gift of Prophecy and of discerning false spirits and false prophets. Prairie Bible Institute, Liberty University and Dallas Theological Seminary taught me how to properly interpret what the Holy Spirit had taught me, without hooking or slicing them, as the wrong grip on a golf club causes.


Quasar92

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

The mind of man forms an image clings to it as truth, when it be a lie...for man sees only that which is below heaven...sees heaven as an over here or over there, but Jesus said "it is within you."

Looking to the sky (for signs, wonders and appearings) is not having a single eye...but a double-mindedness (Paul speaks of in Romans) ...there be two within...
And have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Known (intimately) as we have always been known.

For we walk by faith, not by sight...which has everything to do with perceiving (from)

but be transformed by the renewal of your mind....And to be renewed in the spirit of your minds

The pit in the earth when turned aright becomes an open door to enter into heaven...all about perception...mind of man or mind of Christ are both within...one must decrease, the other increase...

When we can 'see' by the light/glory of God (is everywhere/fills the whole earth)...

For who knows what is good for man while he lives the few days of his vain life, which he passes like a shadow? For who can tell man what will be after him under the sun?

Spiritual truth is revealed in our inner-most being...and all that pertains to eternity (no beginning and without end)...yet man looks to the physical...spirit to the spiritual that is not of this world.

I know some who were labouring in the field (and some who remain there, yet) and have reaped what they sowed...and have been snatched out of that field, and have entered into the promised eternal rest/reclined at the table receiving hidden manna /gates of the city...as promised.

None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it has been written: "What no eye has seen, and no ear has heard, and has not entered into heart of man, what God has prepared for those loving Him." But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.…

 

[Douggg]

The Holy Spirit taught me and gave me the gift of Prophecy and of discerning false spirits and false prophets. Prairie Bible Institute, Liberty University and Dallas Theological Seminary taught me how to properly interpret what the Holy Spirit had taught me, without hooking or slicing them, as the wrong grip on a golf club causes.


Quasar92

Q, which of those institutions teach anything about Deuteronomy 31:9-13 being the basis for the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years?

 

[Quasar92]

Q, which of those institutions teach anything about Deuteronomy 31:9-13 being the basis for the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years?

All of them.

FACTS PERTAINING TO THE FULFILLMENT OF THE NEW COVENANT:

While it has not been possible within the limits of this discussion to consider all aspects of the doctrine, certain important conclusions have been reached. The promises given to Israel in the form of a new covenant were found to remain unfulfilled to this hour. Any literal interpretation of the passages requires events and circumstances which are not a part of this age. Both the postmillennial and amillennial views were shown to depend upon spiritualizing the key words and important statements of the passage. Of the three views held by premillennialists, the view that the new covenant is exclusively and only for Israel was rejected. The use of the term new covenant in connection with the Lord’s Supper as celebrated by both Jews and Gentiles in the church was taken as evidence. Of the remaining views, the position that there are two new covenants, one for Israel to be fulfilled in the millennium and another for the church in this age, was found preferable. The sacrifice of Christ is the basis of any gracious covenant and remains the ground for fulfillment of God’s promised mercies both for the church and for the nation Israel.

For the complete article:

https://bible.org/seriespage/10-new-covenant-israel


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

All of them.

FACTS PERTAINING TO THE FULFILLMENT OF THE NEW COVENANT:

Q, you must have misunderstood my question. Deuteronomy 31:9-13, what do those institutions say about that particular passage having an impact on the end times?

 

[Oldmantook]

You are wrong on the rapture. You protest all you want, but the Holy Word is not changing.

Jesus wasn't wrong on the "rapture." You are certainly entitled not to believe Jesus' plain words.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Holy Spirit taught me and gave me the gift of Prophecy and of discerning false spirits and false prophets. Prairie Bible Institute, Liberty University and Dallas Theological Seminary taught me how to properly interpret what the Holy Spirit had taught me, without hooking or slicing them, as the wrong grip on a golf club causes.


Quasar92

Dallas Theological, Birthed by C.I. Scofield The Adulterer, And his Prodigy Lewis Sperry Chaffer.

Possibly you are unaware Scofield abandoned his wife Leotine and two daughters, and married a girl in his Dallas Sunday School class, yes he was the teacher, several years senior

Yes Scofield was a false teacher of prophecy, that you and many others follow today.

Don't forget Ernest L. Martin, from Herbert W. Armstrong's " "Cult" World Wide Church Of God, as you have recommended persons to read his books.

 

[Oldmantook]

The fact of the matter is, the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church comes from Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as documented in the following:

You did not address the problem of how can Jesus possibly have taught a pre-trib rapture when he plainly stated that he will come as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon (Rev 16:15-16). You also ignore proper interpretation when you do no account for the principle of first mention. This hemeneutical rule states that to understand a particular word or doctrine, one must find the first place in Scripture that word or doctrine is revealed and study that passage. The reasoning is that the Bible’s first mention of a concept is the simplest and clearest presentation; doctrines are then more fully developed on that foundation. So, to fully understand an important and complex theological concept, Bible students are advised to start with its “first mention.” Obviously, Jesus was the one who first mentioned/taught his disciples as to when he will return. They then wrote what he taught in the various books of the NT. Paul who later became an Apostle built on that foundation so his epistles including 1 & 2 Thessalonians must conform to what Jesus stated. Jesus plainly stated that he will return as a thief at the time frame of Armageddon, therefore according to the law of first mention Paul could not have taught from a pre-trib position.

 

[Douggg]

Yes Scofield was a false teacher of prophecy, that you and many others follow today.

7t7, I think I would use the word "errant" teacher of prophecy. "False", to me, implies that the person knew the truth but intentionally presented something false. Just my comment.

 

[Revealing Times]

I think we sometimes over analyze things. It simply means people leaving the faith.

Even though the "FAITH" is spoken of nowhere in the passage and a definite article was used which points to a known entity in the passage, so thus FAITH it can not be because it was never mentioned in the passage, NOT ONE TIME. But the Gathering together unto Christ before the Day of the Lord is mentioned. (RAPTURE/DEPARTURE of the Church).

Just the facts please. Sgt. Joe Friday

 

[Revealing Times]

Are you also saying that the 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 was before the 2000 years of church history began? The mass number that John saw in Revelation 7 before the throne of God are them coming out of the great tribulation - forthcoming, RT.

Let me do it this way, it will save time for both of us.....

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

{{ This is God Sealing his Jewish Servants on earth. But sealing them from what? From being harmed by the coming Plagues of God [Rev. 18:4......Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.] So this is the point in time on earth that Israel flees unto the Wilderness at the MIDWAY POINT and God is saying unto the angels, HOLD ON, wait until Israel is Protected/Sealed. You have the number 12 used here, it symbolizes fullness, so each tribe is said to be protected, or all that is left of Israel, the rest have been Murdered no doubt by the Anti-Christ. So 12 x 12 Tribes = FULLNESS x FULLNESS which means as Paul stated ALL ISRAEL will be saved or Israel's seed will be preserved, not every Jew. So the 144,000 is a figurative number, in my opinion it will be many more than 144,000 who flee unto the Wilderness. Once they get in place, then the Plagues start in full. }}

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (SKIP THIS ITS REDUNDANT 12 X 12)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, (Church) stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes (Marriage has already taken Place see Rev. 19:8), and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

{{ These came out of the 2000 year CHURCH AGE, they are now Married unto the Lamb because they have their White Robes, the Saints being killed on earth (Jacobs Troubles) are being killed at this very point in time, some already being killed, many more will be killed by the Anti-Christ who becomes the BEAST when he Conquers Israel. They are still in their "Graves" and in Rev. ch. 6 Seal number 5 they are told by Jesus they must wait a season until their fellow servants have been killed also. }}

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So in essence you LIMIT Gods vocabulary, the GREAT TRIBULATION is the 2000 year Church Age. 2000 (Church Age) is Greater than 7 years (Jacobs Troubles).

Those Sealed are the Jews who Flee unto the Wilderness, it signifies God is protecting them, SEALED THEM unto Himself. the numbers 12 are used to signify fullness.

 

[Revealing Times]

But it is you saying that the 70th week is the time of Jacob's troubles. It is not actually written in the text that the 70th week is the time of Jacob's troubles.

Also, why would Israel need a peace covenant if the 70th week begins after Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 39:1-16? Then 7 years later, Armageddon.

You do realize that John/Jesus dates Gog and Magog as a War after the 1000 year reign right?

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Revealing Times]

The Holy Spirit taught me and gave me the gift of Prophecy and of discerning false spirits and false prophets. Prairie Bible Institute, Liberty University and Dallas Theological Seminary taught me how to properly interpret what the Holy Spirit had taught me, without hooking or slicing them, as the wrong grip on a golf club causes.


Quasar92

You are pretty spot on, on all things except that Rev. 12 passage............

 

[Revealing Times]

Jesus wasn't wrong on the "rapture." You are certainly entitled not to believe Jesus' plain words.

Jesus only told the Rapture thesis to Paul. You don't seem to understand it, I get that. Its not changing the facts though, it is what it is.

 

[Truth7t7]

7t7, I think I would use the word "errant" teacher of prophecy. "False", to me, implies that the person knew the truth but intentionally presented something false. Just my comment.

Same difference, my opinion of what I believe a false teacher is, try to keep my wording at a 4th grade level.

Thanks for the read and input

 

[Truth7t7]

You do realize that John/Jesus dates Gog and Magog as a War after the 1000 year reign right?

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

No such thing as a earthly Millennial Kingdom found in the scripture, none.

 

[Oldmantook]

Jesus only told the Rapture thesis to Paul. You don't seem to understand it, I get that. Its not changing the facts though, it is what it is. .

So do care to explain Rev 16:15-16 or simply keep ignoring it just in order to hold on to your belief?

 

[Revealing Times]

So do care to explain Rev 16:15-16 or simply keep ignoring it just in order to hold on to your belief?

I do not need to explain something you seemingly have misconstrued. Now you explain how Re. 19 can happen without a pre-tribulation rapture.

I have already explained the other in another post, just must not read the posts. You can stay here if you like, ask God to please keep you here, O am going to be in heaven marrying the Lamb.