What does "except there come a falling away first" in 2 Thess. 2:3 mean?

Douggg

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No the church is not raptured in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

There is apostasy as the church departs from the faith.

Gonna have to find your pre-trib rapture somewhere else.
It could turn out the many in the church that will go into apostasy happens before the rapture - which only has to precede the Day of the Lord.

So it could look like this, maybe....

1. The confirming of the (Mt Sinai) covenant to begin the 7 years, by the Antichrist..
2. apostasy as many in church think that the Antichrist is actually the true messiah, that the Jews were right all along, and depart Jesus.
3. the rapture takes place.*
4. the Antichrist suddenly commits the transgression of desolation - triggering the Day of the Lord in 2Thessalonians2.

* Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


The Antichrist could in theory use the rapture as part of his cover story of claiming to be God. That he removed the trouble makers from the world who had been criticizing him.
 
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Truth7t7

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It could turn out the many in the church that will go into apostasy happens before the rapture - which only has to precede the Day of the Lord.

So it could look like this, maybe....

1. The confirming of the (Mt Sinai) covenant to begin the 7 years, by the Antichrist..
2. apostasy as many in church think that the Antichrist is actually the true messiah, that the Jews were right all along, and depart Jesus.
3. the rapture takes place.*
4. the Antichrist suddenly commits the transgression of desolation - triggering the Day of the Lord in 2Thessalonians2.

* Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


The Antichrist could in theory use the rapture as part of his cover story of claiming to be God. That he removed the trouble makers from the world who had been criticizing him.
I see the tribulation as 3.5 years not seven, this will start at the revealing of the Antichrist who will be a Jew, I see two literal prophets returned, a remake of Mose/Aaron against Pharoh for 3.5 years, when they are killed the final hours of earths history unfolds, moon blood, stars fall, great earthquake.

Then the rapture/catching up takes place immediately after the tribulation at the "Day of the Lord" in the second advent, resurrection of all, final judgment of all, as this existing earth is dissolved by the Lords fire in judgment, then the eternal kingdom is revealed in the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem, "All In The Twinkling Of An Eye"

I agree that the apostate church, those who were never saved and sealed will accept the future antichrist, dispensationalism is currently teaching of a Christ returning to the eastern gate of Jerusalem, riding a white horse, taking a physical throne?

AKA The Antichrist!
 
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Douggg

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I see the tribulation as 3.5 years not seven, this will start at the revealing of the Antichrist who will be a Jew, then the rapture/catching up takes place immediately after the tribulation at the "Day of the Lord" in the second advent, resurrection of all, final judgment of all, the eternal kingdom revealed in the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem, All In The Twinkling Of An Eye.
7t7, there is no such thing in bible prophecy called "the tribulation". It is "the great tribulation" And lasts the final 1335 days of the 7 years, based upon when the AoD will setup to be worshiped until Jesus returns..

The 7 years don't equate to the great tribulation. Only the last 1335 days.

People who call the 7 years the tribulation are doing so in error - a tradition started by influential bible commentators.

I would suggest getting out of that habit - not saying tribulation nor 7 year tribulation. Use the biblical term "great tribulation" instead. Because the "great tribulation" is defined as when the Abomination of Desolation is setup to be worshiped. There is no grey area. It will lasts the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12.

For most of the first half of the 7 years, it will not be tribulation at all. The Jews and the world will be saying peace and safety thinking they have entered the messianic era.

Also you wrote "the revealing of the Antichrist." That's not what is 2Thessalonians2:4 is saying. The person will already be the Antichrist, when he goes into the temple and claims to be God. When he commits that act - it is going to reveal him as the man of sin.

Before then, the person becomes the Antichrist by being anointed the King of Israel, thought to be messiah, by the Jews. He confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years because that is a law Moses made of all future leaders of Israel, back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

He will be in that role of the Antichrist, illegitimate King of Israel, for about the first 3 years 3 months of the 7years. Before committing the act of claiming to be God. That will end him being in the role of the Antichrist, because the Jews mortified will impeach him from continuing as their King of Israel.
 
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Revealing Times

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So now you have coined the 2000 year church age - the 2000 year tribulation period - reading into Revelation 7? sheesh. In lieu of what the text says - "Great Tribulation.
Is 2000 years Greater than 7? You are the one limiting Gods ability to use the word GREAT....Not me, I just figured out what it means. Those dead under the ALTER in the 5th Seal are told THEY MUST wait until their fellow brothers are killed also. So they would not be in Heaven at anytime would they? THINK ABOUT IT !! The Beheaded are told in Rev. 20:4 that they will reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. So they are NEVER IN HEAVEN !!

But John sees these Saints IN HEAVEN in Rev. ch 7. Why would you expect to see the Beheaded Saints in Heaven at ANY POINT in time?

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (They are Judged and stay on earth, they are never in Heaven.)

So at what point are they supposedly seen in Heaven? They reign on Earth with Christ 1000 years. The whole Rev. 7 are the Saints in Heaven falls apart brother, you know why? Because it the Church Age Saints in Heaven, via the Rapture. The point is to get you to think straight, without the men's traditions, I worded it different so you wouldn't have the hangup. The Church is whee the Saints shown in Heaven in Rev. 7 came from. And they (WE) went through GREAT TRIBULATION !!

From the bible, what says all seven years are Jacobs troubles?

I fail to see why it matters. The overall point you can't see is the TROUBLES and the 3.5 years of Gods Wrath is different. Jacobs Troubles happens during the 70th Week, there, you like that phrasing better? Now you show me where the bible says the Troubles of Jacob are not the full Seven Years. If you think you will understand why I call it 7 Years of Jacobs Troubles, I will prove here 100 percent why my thought process is right. BEAR WITH ME HERE.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Rev. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

So the whole CHURCH AGE was Tribulation, Jesus stated YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION, so the whole Church Age from Jesus' death until the Rapture is TRIBULATION, if the Rapture happens today we would have been Raptured from this Earth to Heaven, and the dead will have been raised, who ALL were in this same 2000 years pf TRIBULATION which Jesus said we HAD TO BE IN.

Now the Church is gone, but the Jews convert, they accept their Messiah and many more Gentiles accept Christ, thus those Jews and those who converted after the Rapture are living in a FULL SEVEN YEARS of Tribulation, BECAUSE JESUS STATED............You WILL HAVE TRIBULATION. So if the 2000 years is Tribulation, and it is the SEVEN YEARS are all Tribulation also.

We will have Tribulation until Jesus Raptures us OR until Jesus comes back at the Second Coming to rescue those still on earth.

2000 years of TRIBULATION CHURCH AGE

7 years of Tribulation (Jacobs Troubles)
 
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Douggg

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Is 2000 years Greater than 7?
It is not saying anything about 7years in Revelation 7. And in the bible, it doesn't use the term 7 years tribulation, nor 7 year tribulation period. People who use those terms, do so in error, and perpetuate confusion to the body of Christ.

You are the one limiting Gods ability to use the word GREAT....Not me, I just figured out what it means.

RT, it is not me who has come up with some off-the-wall interpretation - trying to justify the timing of the rapture as pre-trib.

Jesus used the words great tribulation - based upon when the Abomination of Desolation will be set up to be worshiped. The term used in Revelation 7 is great tribulation - them in heaven are there because they refused to worship the beast nor his image.
 
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Douggg

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I fail to see why it matters. The overall point you can't see is the TROUBLES and the 3.5 years of Gods Wrath is different. Jacobs Troubles happens during the 70th Week,
RT, the time of Jacob's troubles begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. And ends when Jesus returns. Jacob's troubles don't span the entire 7 years.
 
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Truth7t7

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I see
7t7, there is no such thing in bible prophecy called "the tribulation". It is "the great tribulation" And lasts the final 1335 days of the 7 years, based upon when the AoD will setup to be worshiped until Jesus returns..

The 7 years don't equate to the great tribulation. Only the last 1335 days.

People who call the 7 years the tribulation are doing so in error - a tradition started by influential bible commentators.

I would suggest getting out of that habit - not saying tribulation nor 7 year tribulation. Use the biblical term "great tribulation" instead. Because the "great tribulation" is defined as when the Abomination of Desolation is setup to be worshiped. There is no grey area. It will lasts the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12.

For most of the first half of the 7 years, it will not be tribulation at all. The Jews and the world will be saying peace and safety thinking they have entered the messianic era.

Also you wrote "the revealing of the Antichrist." That's not what is 2thessalonians2:4 is saying. The person will already be the Antichrist, when he goes into the temple and claims to be God. When he commits that act - it is going to reveal him as the man of sin.

Before then, the person becomes the Antichrist by being anointed the King of Israel, thought to be messiah, by the Jews. He confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years because that is a law Moses made of all future leaders of Israel, back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

He will be in that role of the Antichrist, illegitimate King of Israel, for about the first 3 years 3 months of the 7years. Before committing the act of claiming to be God. That will end him being in the role of the Antichrist, because the Jews mortified will impeach him from continuing as their King of Israel.
I see a future 3.5 year "great tribulation" as the two witnesses and Antichrist will be given 1260 days or 42 months, this starting at the revealing of the Antichrist.
The world will end as seen in Revelation 11 after the witnesses are killed, ascend to heaven the travailing pains of birth begin, stars fall, great world earthquake, then Jesus returns in fire judgment, dissolving this earth by fire 2 peter 3:10, Malachi 3:2, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29-30,
The resurrection of all, final judgment of all, the new heaven, earth, Jerusalem revealed, all in the twinkling of an eye 1 Corinthians 15:52-54
 
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Douggg

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I see

I see a future 3.5 year "great tribulation"

If you want to be right on correct, refine that to 1335days. Based upon Daniel 12:11-12.

So if a person subtracts 1335days from the full seven years of 2520 days - the Abomination of Desolation will be setup on day 1185 of the 7 years.

It will look like this.

day1 confirming of the covenant................day 1185 AoD...............day 1260 the two witnesses killed.........

.........day 1263.5 the two witnesses ascend........42 months of the beast (1256.5 days)................day 2520 Jesus returns.


as the two witnesses and Antichrist will be given 1260 days or 42 months, this starting at the revealing of the Antichrist.

Again there is no "revealing" of "the Antichrist". The Antichrist (thought to be messiah, King of Israel, at the time) will reveal himself as "the man of sin", around 3 years 3 months into the seven years.

For illustration purposes - It would be like the President of the United States revealing himself as "the man of sin" by claiming to be God. How long do you think he would remain President of the United States, if he did such a thing? He would be impeached immediately. And no longer be in the role of being President of the United States.

Being the Antichrist just means the person is in the role of being the King of Israel - instead of and against the rightful King - Jesus. It only going to last the first 3 years 3 months, thereabouts, into the seven years.

Which is why you don't see the term Antichrist in Revelation 13, but beast, for those last 42 months.
 
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WailingWall

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So the facts are the facts, they FEARED the Day of the Lord falling on them, and thus Paul reassured them that THAT DAY (Day of the Lord/Gods Wrath) will not fall on them, because the Church will DEPART FIRST (Be Gathered unto the Lord), then the Anti-Christ will come forth or be revealed unto the world.

You are just creating the "FAITH DEPARTURE" out of thin air brother. Its not there, this passage is very obvious to me, IF we put down our preconceived men's traditions.

Thin air???

2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHO OPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2THES.2 {a falling away} {bad guy exalts himself above all that is called God}

DANIEL 11 {many shall fall} {bad guy exalts himself above every God}

DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

verse 32, the word {covenant}={berit}. Same Hebrew word used pertaining to the covenant of the 10 commandments

So you see the falling away { 2Thes.2} in Daniel. In Daniel do you see ANYTHING that depicts a rapture? Nope! We know these scriptures are speaking of the same event as bad guy exalts himself above all Gods in both scriptures and this will happen only once. As you can plainly see its a falling away from the truth. It is not a rapture.

HOSEA 4 [3] Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away. [4] Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest. [5] Therefore shalt thou FALL IN THE DAY, and the prophet also shall FALL WITH THEE IN THE NIGHT, and I will destroy thy mother. [6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: SEEING THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF THY GOD, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

Hosea 4 points out why they are falling way from the truth. They have forgotten Gods law. Not us legalist!
 
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Revealing Times

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It is not saying anything about 7years in Revelation 7. And in the bible, it doesn't use the term 7 years tribulation, nor 7 year tribulation period. People who use those terms, do so in error, and perpetuate confusion to the body of Christ.
How many time does someone have to say something Douggg? We live in Tribulation, Jesus said we WOULD HAVE TRIBULATION, thus the 2000 years until the Rapture IS TRIBULATION (you do not deny the church has had tribulation for 2000 years do you?) and thus the SEVEN REMAINING YEARS are also Tribulation. (You take one verse Jesus spoke and just because he stated that at the time of the Abomination of Desolation it would be THE GREATEST TROUBLES EVER, and you discount that the first 3.5 years are TROUBLES ALSO.......YE shall have TRIBULATION JESUS SAID !! Do you not get there will be TRIBULATION for the Church every day until the Rapture, then we/they still live in tribulation for the next 7 years. After the Rapture there will be NO CHURCH, except the few who give their lives to Christ after the Rapture and the Jews who repent. You think the Church is mocked now, wait until after the Rapture, the crazies will really be emboldened then. We will always be IN TRIBULATION until Jesus Christ returns brother (Second Coming). The time of GREATEST TROUBLES does not discount the 2000 years of Tribulation nor the rest of the SEVEN YEARS being Tribulation, JESUS SAID....YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION !!

Its not that difficult, be we seemingly make it difficult by parsing words. Every day since Jesus death until he returns at the Second Coming IS TRIBULATION, that is what Jesus told us...YE WILL HAVE TRIBULATION !! So the only thing left is to differentiate the TWO PERIODS. (Church Age of 2000 some odd years..................Jacobs Troubles which is a SEVEN YEAR PERIOD.) You might have to figure out things on your own brother, by using scriptures like I do you can not read singular verses without juxtaposing them against other verses. By READING THE BIBLE we see that the Church is in a NEVER ENDING Tribulation period until Jesus Christs return. You seem to think the troubles of the CHURCH ARE only the brief time if the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, I don't see it that way because that is not the way it is, I was taught by men that that IS THE TRIBULATION, but the Holy Spirit says NO, the Tribulation is from Jesus' death until his Second Coming.

RT, it is not me who has come up with some off-the-wall interpretation - trying to justify the timing of the rapture as pre-trib.

Jesus used the words great tribulation - based upon when the Abomination of Desolation will be set up to be worshiped. The term used in Revelation 7 is great tribulation - them in heaven are there because they refused to worship the beast nor his image.

Again worst TROUBLES EVER or Greatest TROUBLES EVER......In no way stops the 2000 years from being GREATER that the SEVEN YEARS does it Mr Douggg? And I see you skipped over my question, I wonder why? Show me where the BEHEADED SAINTS are ever in Heaven Douggg? You can't so you dodged it !! COME ON MAN

RT, the time of Jacob's troubles begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. And ends when Jesus returns. Jacob's troubles don't span the entire 7 years.

As explained above there is a 2000 year Tribulation period. The Jacobs Troubles a SEVEN YEAR PERIOD that ends life on earth as we now know it, Jesus will reign for a 1000 years. But until Jesus returns, after the Rapture, there will be a Seven Year Period. It is Tribulation, just as Jesus Stated, it is not ALL THE GREATEST TROUBLES EVER SEEN, that is a short time period Israel faces, either a few weeks or days until they get to safety, or the full 3.5 Years of Gods Wrath via the (DOTL). They are TROUBLED thus they must stay in a hole in the wall (Petra).

The Day of the Lord starts with the First Seal, Jacobs Troubles start with the RAPTURE, the Gentiles time has come FULL......Israel is back on the Clock.
 
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Revealing Times

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I see a future 3.5 year "great tribulation" as the two witnesses and Antichrist will be given 1260 days or 42 months, this starting at the revealing of the Antichrist.

So both are the SAME TIME FRAME even though the two-witnesses are Killed before the Seven Vials and the Anti-Christ/BEAST is killed at the Seventh Vial !! How do you make that math work brother?

The fact is Israel REPENTS before the Abomination of Desolation and scriptures tell is that in Malachi.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Elijah is coming BEFORE the Day of the Lord which starts with the First Seal. He will turn Israel back unto God. Why do you think they would heed Jesus' words, and flee unto the Wilderness if they hadn't repented and become Christians or Messianic Jews? They flee because they turned back to God by accepting Jesus Christ as their Messiah see Zechariah 12:10 or Zechariah 13:1.

So the Anti-Christ is revealed at the FIRST SEAL. And the Two-Witnesses show up a month or two before the Anti-Christ is revealed. This is why God gave the both 1260 Day time frames so people can figure these things out. However long the Seven Last Vials take, that is the difference in when they show up. Its simple math.

The world will end as seen in Revelation 11 after the witnesses are killed, ascend to heaven the travailing pains of birth begin, stars fall, great world earthquake, then Jesus returns in fire judgment, dissolving this earth by fire 2 peter 3:10, Malachi 3:2, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29-30,
The resurrection of all, final judgment of all, the new heaven, earth, Jerusalem revealed, all in the twinkling of an eye 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

No it doesn't, you misinterpret the passage. Jesus Returns at the Seventh Vial to destroy the Anti-Christ. The Angel is just announcing what the Seven coming Vials out come is going to end with. God from this point is taking over via these coming Seven last plagues of God. Rev. 11 is about God announcing he is TAKING BACK THE DEED to mankind from Satan. He doesn't finish the job until Jesus returns. Compare it to this, say the United States told Maine they could go free, then Maine elected a dictator and entered into a crazy Civil War and were annihilating each other. The United States steps in an announces they are TAKING OVER MAINE !!! They would still have to Conquer the Dictator in Maine with actual Weaponry, but at the point the United States announce their planed actions, the ending was INEVITABLE !! (Great analogy I must ADMIT !! LOL)

1 Cor. 15 happens before the Final Seven Year period of Jacobs Troubles.
 
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Dave Watchman

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We live in Tribulation,

Jesus said we WOULD HAVE TRIBULATION

thus the 2000 years until the Rapture IS TRIBULATION

(you do not deny the church has had tribulation for 2000 years do you?)

and thus the SEVEN REMAINING YEARS are also Tribulation.

YE shall have TRIBULATION JESUS SAID !!

Do you not get there will be TRIBULATION for the Church every day until the Rapture,

then we/they still live in tribulation for the next 7 years.

We will always be IN TRIBULATION until Jesus Christ returns

JESUS SAID....YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION !!

Every day since Jesus death until he returns at the Second Coming IS TRIBULATION,

that is what Jesus told us...YE WILL HAVE TRIBULATION !!

By READING THE BIBLE we see that the Church is in a NEVER ENDING Tribulation

but the Holy Spirit says NO, the Tribulation is from Jesus' death until his Second Coming.

As explained above there is a 2000 year Tribulation period.

It is Tribulation, just as Jesus Stated,

I think you guys are tossing around the word "tribulation" in an arbitrary and gratuitous fashion. You would have it refer to the entire 'last days" that the writer of Hebrews were addressing, to the fullness of several prophetic time periods of Revelation and Daniel and every trial and trouble that a Christian can encounter.

I was taught by men that that IS THE TRIBULATION,

What ARE your qualifications?

What makes you think you have authority to teach the Holy Scriptures?

You were taught by men?

Taught by men?

I, on the other hand, am a highly qualified and experienced Biblical expositor, private interpreter and prognosticator. I was taught by the Holy Spirit. My credentials both meet and exceed those of any of those found on Youtube. I was considering the mystery of the holy writ when you were probably still in diapers. Understand?

So don't forget, it's a thin line to be crossed from being a clanging symbol, to a banging gong.

When time permits, I'll come back to tell about: "for then there will be great tribulation".

:)
 
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Revealing Times

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2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHO OPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2THES.2 {a falling away} {bad guy exalts himself above all that is called God}

DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH FIRST....Then the bad guy shows up. All of this or BOTH THINGS happen before the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) can come upon them, thus THEIR FEARS about going through Gods Wrath were NULL and VOID !!

Paul basically told them this is a simple manner, which the KJV complicated. You remember I told you about the Rapture unto Christ Jesus happening before the Day of the Lord guys? Well the Day of the Lord can not, I REPEAT CAN NOT HAPPEN, until the Church Departs and the Man of Sin or Anti-Christ shows up. The Subject was the Thessalonians fearing that they would go through the Wrath of God before the GATHERING UNTO CHRIST (Rapture/Departure of the Church). It really doesn't get any clearer than that. Satan still tries to fog our minds with men's traditions.

The rest you wrote has zero to do with the Rapture.
 
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Revealing Times

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I think you guys are tossing around the word "tribulation" in an arbitrary and gratuitous fashion. You would have it refer to the entire 'last days" that the writer of Hebrews were addressing, to the fullness of several prophetic time periods of Revelation and Daniel and every trial and trouble that a Christian can encounter.
Tribulation means TROUBLES.....Its not that complicated.

What ARE your qualifications?

What makes you think you have authority to teach the Holy Scriptures?

I have been a preacher for about 30 years. Cough, cough relax, this hit will go away in a minute.

You were taught by men?

Taught by men?
MEN'S TRADITIONS get passed down, we have to overcome them. Just like the Pharisees were taught by men but the 12 Disciples were taught by Jesus, they most certainly had to overcome some of the things they learned before Jesus got hold of them.

The Great Tribulation John is speaking of in Rev. ch 7 is the 2000 year church age.
I, on the other hand, am a highly qualified and experienced Biblical expositor, private interpreter and prognosticator. I was taught by the Holy Spirit. My credentials both meet and exceed those of any of those found on Youtube. I was considering the mystery of the holy writ when you were probably still in diapers. Understand?

YEA..... I have read a lot of your posts brother. Remind me do you believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture? I as well am taught by the Holy Spirit, you seemingly MISSED THE POINT, the Holy Spirit has to overcome the TRADITIONAL TEACHINGS we all are privy to as children, things get ingrained and the Holy Spirit has to overcome these misconceptions.

So don't forget, it's a thin line to be crossed from being a clanging symbol, to a banging gong.

When time permits, I'll come back to tell about: "for then there will be great tribulation".

My calling is Prophecy brother. I was shown in 1986, in a vision, that the "MAN OF SIN is here".

I know pretty much everything about Revelation and 90 percent of Daniel by heart. We can chat about it.

:amen:
 
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Well the Day of the Lord can not, I REPEAT CAN NOT HAPPEN, until the Church Departs and the Man of Sin or Anti-Christ shows up.

1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Most Rapturist claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.The math aint that hard. Yes, there are those who believe that Friday afternoon till sunday mornin equals 3 days and three nights. Math is tough for some but come on
 
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Douggg

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Again worst TROUBLES EVER or Greatest TROUBLES EVER......In no way stops the 2000 years from being GREATER that the SEVEN YEARS does it Mr Douggg? And I see you skipped over my question, I wonder why? Show me where the BEHEADED SAINTS are ever in Heaven Douggg? You can't so you dodged it !! COME ON MAN
The Great Tribulation is not seven years. It is 1335days, a little more than half of the 7 years.

Them in Revelation 7, the multitude, are them who have died during the Great Tribulation. Not all of them will be by beheading. Some by war, some by not being able to buy the medications they need, because of the 666 requirement for example.

When those saints, who are beheaded - if they don't go to heaven, where do you say they go?

.
 
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Douggg

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What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15.
The Revelation 20:4 resurrection not the same resurrection spoken of in 1Corinthians15 because that resurrection is accompanied by the rapture, the changing of the living.

The Revelation 20:4 resurrection does not include the changing of the living - not in the text.

They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast
May or may not happen prior to the beginning of the 70 week. But will happen before the Day of the Lord, triggered by the Antichrist going into the temple claiming to be God. How long before - nobody knows.

We also don't know when in the 7 years, as to pinpoint exactly when, the Antichrist commits the act. We can know that it has to be before day 1185 of the 7 years, because the image made of him after he is brought back to life is the Abomination of Desolation, 1335 days before Jesus returns, setup in the temple to be worshiped.

1. Antichrist confirms the covenant beginning the 7 years.
2. Jews and the world think they are in the messianic age of peace and safety.
3. Sometime around 3 years 3 months into the seven years, he commits the act of claiming to be God. The Day of the Lord begins.

4. God has him killed for the act. And in disdain for the person, brings him back alive.
5. The person is then the beast of Revelation 13, which the image will be made of him and placed in the temple, day 1185, the Great Tribulation begins.
 
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Revealing Times

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1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Most Rapturist claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.The math aint that hard. Yes, there are those who believe that Friday afternoon till sunday mornin equals 3 days and three nights. Math is tough for some but come on
You totally do not seem to get the FIRST RESURRECTION. It is the Resurrection of those under Christs Jesus' blood, be it before the Rapture or after the Rapture. The Second Resurrection is of the DEAD IN Satan/Wicked so to speak, 1000 years later.

The Scripture you cite as proof actually does just the opposite, it PROVES 100 Percent that there is a pre-tribulation rapture and you don't seem see it brother. LOOK at Rev. 20:4 again. I am going to show you why those Saints can ONLY be the ones killed during the Seven Year Tribulation period and not in the 2000 year Church Age. WATCH !!!

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them (Church), and judgment was given unto them (Church): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded(5th Seal under the Alter) for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads (BOOM), or in their hands; and they(Beheaded) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So think on this second brother, how can this be those who were DEAD IN CHRIST, who are raised from the Dead at the same time as the LIVING in 1 Corinthians 15? They never were ALIVE WHEN THE BEAST WAS ALIVE !! It has to be ONLY the people that were in the Seven Year Jacobs Troubles period or the Tribulation. It can not be those who died before the Seven Year Period, BUT you say it all happens at the SAME TIME.....No it does not. RAPTURE.......Tribulation......Second Coming.

The very scripture you cite is the very scripture I cite to prove just the opposite. How can those raised from the Dead have been BEHEADED or REFUSED to take the Mark of the Beast? Psstt It can not be them brother. It is the people who became Christians after the Rapture or the Jews who refused to take the Mark of the Beast just as the Christians refused to, thus they were BEHEADED.

I am giving this to you guys as a gift. I had to spend 30 years searching for this stuff.
 
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So think on this second brother, how can this be those who were DEAD IN CHRIST, who are raised from the Dead at the same time as the LIVING in 1 Corinthians 15? They never were ALIVE WHEN THE BEAST WAS ALIVE !!

But the MARK of the beast has been around for a long long time

REV.14 [9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

above scripture sign – hand - forehead (between the eyes) - cup of indignation – the bad guys

below scriptures sign – hand - between thine eyes (forehead) - the LORDS LAW – the good guys

DEUT.6 [2] That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and HIS COMMANDMENTS, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.[3] Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.[4]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: [5]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. [6]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: [7]And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. [8]And thou shalt bind them for A SIGN UPON THINE HAND, and they shall be as FRONTLETS BETWEEN THINE EYES.
 
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