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Featured What does "except there come a falling away first" in 2 Thess. 2:3 mean?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. joshcorn

    joshcorn Member

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    The Rapture
    The worst case of wrongly dividing the word Of God.
    I researched it years ago when I smiled a rat. I tracked the roots of it and where this whole idea started.
    I can not remember names but some where in the 16th century The Roman Catholic Church slandered some other guys religious organization and to get at them He wrote this whole rapture thing with the Roman Catholic Church as the Harlot and Babylon. It was filed away some where in a library in England for a few centuries .Then this women found it there,read it and published it,then someone else read it a wrote a book base on it and made a lot of money on it and is still doing so today
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Search this forum for Ribera and Lacunza and you'll find everything that you'll need to know.
     
  3. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I confess I am not certain of your confusion or what you are trying to point out from these straight forward texts.
    Paul says there will be a falling away...from the faith; just as Jesus instructs when He says "because of the increase in wickedness the love of most will grow cold."...or, "when the Son of Man returns will He find faith?"
    This occurs before, again, as Jesus says, Christ returns on the Last and Terrible Day of the Lord.
    (Those found in the faith will welcome the Day, however, for Jesus encourages us with His words, "hold up your head for your salvation is nigh." (paraphrase here)
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    THE THEME OF THE 2 THESS.2:1-8 PASSAGE

    Is in the very first verse: "2 Thess.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"


    Which is a direct reference to the rapture of the Church in 1 Thess.4:16-17:

    2 Thess.4:16 "For nthe Lord himself will descend ofrom heaven pwith a cry of command, with the voice of qan archangel, and rwith the sound of the trumpet of God. And sthe dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be tcaught up together with them uin the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so vwe will always be with the Lord."

    The passage is about the rapture of the Church and has nothing whatever to do with a Falling away, am apostasy or a rebellion


    Quasar92.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  5. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    THE THEME OF THE 2 THESS.2:1-8 PASSAGE

    Is in the very first verse: "2 Thess.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

    Which is a direct reference to the rapture of the Church in 1 Thess.4:16-17:

    2 Thess.4:16 "For nthe Lord himself will descend ofrom heaven pwith a cry of command, with the voice of qan archangel, and rwith the sound of the trumpet of God. And sthe dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be tcaught up together with them uin the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so vwe will always be with the Lord."

    The passage is about the rapture of the Church and has nothing whatever to do with a Falling away, am apostasy or a rebellion

    The Scriptures refute you.


    Quasar92.
     
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    THE THEME OF THE 2 THESS.2:1-8 PASSAGE

    Is in the very first verse: "2 Thess.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"


    Which is a direct reference to the rapture of the Church in 1 Thess.4:16-17:

    2 Thess.4:16 "For nthe Lord himself will descend ofrom heaven pwith a cry of command, with the voice of qan archangel, and rwith the sound of the trumpet of God. And sthe dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be tcaught up together with them uin the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so vwe will always be with the Lord."

    Verses 3, 7-8 confirm the fact that the rapture of the Church will take place before the man of lawlessness is revealed, who is the same person as all three of the "he's{ in Dan.8:27, who trigers the tribulation.

    The passage is about the rapture of the Church and has nothing whatever to do with a Falling away, am apostasy or a rebellion


    Quasar92.
     
  7. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As a qualified teacher of the Bible, I am by no means in confusion, Bit I dare say, you seem, to be. The answers to the questions in your mind are thoroughly addressed in my OP. Check it out and see for yourself.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  8. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    You write too much on the topic and I dare say that is often the beginning of the confusing of the clear message of the Bible...which is meant to be taken in by the children and hidden from the wise and learned which you claim you are.
    Ecclesiastes 5:2-3:
    ...God is in heaven
    and you are on earth,
    so let your words be few.
    3 A dream comes when there are many cares,
    and many words mark the speech of a fool.
    Proverbs 30:5-6:
    5 “Every word of God is flawless;
    he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
    6 Do not add to his words,
    or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am sorry Q, but you are wrong about the falling away, the defection, being the rapture. The falling away is the same concept used in Hebrews 6:4-6, generally thought to be written by Paul as well. Although the rapture is indicated in verse 7.

    What Paul was actually saying is that the rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins - which is triggered when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

    The point I was making regarding the rapture timing, it only has to precede the person being revealed as the man of sin, in the middle of the 70th week - not him being identified as the Antichrist at the beginning of the 70th week. Thus, does not automatically mandate a pre-70th week rapture.

    The confiming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 does not trigger anything in the bible called "the tribulation" (equated as 7 years) - which "the tribulation" is neither a biblical term nor concept, but is a tradition of men-made, misconstrued, term. The biblical term is "great tribulation" and will be 1335 day long.

    The confirming of the covenant for seven years begins the last shmittah cycle, of the 70 shmittah cycles.

    1. Beginning of the 70th week - confirmation of the covenant.
    2. Beginning of the Day of the Lord - the transgression of desolation act
    3. Beginning of the great tribulation - the abomination of desolation set up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  10. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Review the translation history of 2 Thewss.2:3 in the following where the alteration in the interpretation of the Greel word, APOSTASIA," was made. After having been translated as DEPARTURE, from the 4th century, through the first seven English translations of the Bible, in the 17th century.

    Show me how you can make a FALLING AWAY out of the context 2 Thess.2:-8 is all about, in Paul's amplification of 1 Thess.4:17 in the very first verse [2 Thess.2:1]

    The three "he/s" in Dan.9:27, is the same person as the man of lawlessness in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8; the Antichrist, who triggers the tribulation, in accordance with the Scriptures, confirmed in Rev.6:2. With the first horseman on the white horse, in the first seal, the same person, the Antichrist.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Q, 2Thessalonians2 is not SOLEY about the rapture. It is also includes the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

    1. Beginning of the 70th week - confirmation of the covenant.
    2. Beginning of the Day of the Lord - the transgression of desolation act
    3. Beginning of the great tribulation - the abomination of desolation set up.

    What is not directly in the text of 2Thessalonians2, the defection, what causes it.

    It will take place between the confirming of the covenant and the transgression of desolation act. During the time the Jews and the world will be saying peace and safety - because they will have been deluded into thinking they have entered the messianic age.


    1. Beginning of the 70th week - confirmation of the covenant.

    False Messianic age - in between. The defection from Christianity during this time.

    2. Beginning of the Day of the Lord - the transgression of desolation act
    3. Beginning of the great tribulation - the abomination of desolation set up.

    The false messianic age will begin when the Antichrist confirms the covenant. And will end when he unexpectedly commits the transgression of desolation act.
    During that false messianic age - that's when the defection from Christianity will take place, in great numbers - the falling away, Paul was speaking about..
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  12. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First of all, why don't you try waiting until I have finished responding to your first post. The primary issues pertaining to the two epistles of Thessalonians, is the rapture of the Church and the Day of the Lord/the tribulation.

    FYI, I am a qualified teacher of the Bible and have spent many years teaching these issues. And where my I ask did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible? I suggest you sharpen your pencil if you think you can prove I am wrong, as you boldly claim.


    Quasar92
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    God qualifies me. Who qualifies you?
     
  14. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong on the rapture. You protest all you want, but the Holy Word is not changing.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Douggg, it is more than evident that if neither Paul, nor the early Church, nor the Reformers, nor the Greek Christians, nor the NASB translators, nor more than 50 other translators; are able to convince someone; then neither heaven nor hell is able to convince them either.
     
  16. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Douggg I have learned, when something gets stuck in your craw 10,000 mules can't pull it out. No matter what anyone says your opinion will never change. JACOBS TROUBLES is a Seven Year Period. The 70th Week is Jacobs Troubles. Just because Jesus stated there would be a period that is the WORST TROUBLES of all just after the Abomination of Desolation doesn't mean the full seven years of FAKE PEACE isn't troubles also. But of course you have to say that because you believe that Israel accepts the Anti-Christ as their KING, which they do not, and never will. So you think its a real peace, when Daniel 9:27 says its a forced peace. The Forced peace is a part of the Seven Years. Like I stated, you can call them anything you want, its irrelevant to me, I will be in Heaven as will the Church. But Jacobs Troubles is a 7 Year Period, Gods Wrath is a 3.5 Year Period. They are NOT THE SAME THING.

    Its the 70th Week. The Day of the Lord is the 3.5 year period that stats with the First Seal. If a PEACE DEAL is FORCED on Israel is that not TROUBLES? Israel REPENTS before the Day of the Lord, that tells us thy are broken and seeking God before the First Seal.

    No, you are just limiting God with MEN'S TRADITIONS.

    If you believe in a pre-trib Rapture you should understand that it is the Church in Rev. ch. 7, if not well, that's on you. Stop pigeon holing Gods Vocabulary. Just because Jesus says the GREATEST EVER Tribulation will be a period of time in the last 7 Year Period around the Abomination of Desolation, you thus take in MEN'S TRADITIONS and you see this end time period as the ONLY Tribulation or troubles ever, as if TROUBLES are ONLY happening at the Abomination of Desolation, and YOU have limited God !! Just because the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES are around the Abomination doesn't mean all Seven Years are not PERILOUS. (Nothing in scriptures tells you that, YOU assume it)

    Nothing in scriptures tells you the GREAT TRIBULATION John was speaking of has to be the GREATEST TROUBLES Jesus spoke of. Great can mean many things. Greater as in LARGER or Greater is in Harsher Troubles.

    Since those seen in Heaven came out of all Nations and spoke many languages, this is the Church that came out of the Great (2000 Year Church Age) Tribulation........Are you denying the 2000 year church age was GREAT TRIBULATION? Millions of Murders !!

    Stop limiting the way God uses words. He can use them the way He wants to.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  17. Polar Bear Quest

    Polar Bear Quest Member

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    I think we sometimes over analyze things. It simply means people leaving the faith.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    But it is you saying that the 70th week is the time of Jacob's troubles. It is not actually written in the text that the 70th week is the time of Jacob's troubles.

    Also, why would Israel need a peace covenant if the 70th week begins after Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 39:1-16? Then 7 years later, Armageddon.

    Is the feast on the corpses in Ezekiel 39:17-20 the Armageddon feast of Revelation 19:17-18, yes or no?

    17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

    18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

    19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

    20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

    21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Are you also saying that the 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 was before the 2000 years of church history began? The mass number that John saw in Revelation 7 before the throne of God are them coming out of the great tribulation - forthcoming, RT.

    1. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Revelation 7-9 covers the second half of the 70th week, RT.
     
  20. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Looking at the pictures preserved on the walls of Pompeii or the archaeological find of an ancient Egyptian papyrus, both depicting equivalent acts about sex. Also as far as I know the temple of Aphrodite with its' temple prostitution wasn't raising any moral concerns within the Roman judicial system either. Paul could say the technology has changed but the people have not. They still like to visually advertise their sexual indulgences as part of doing business.
     
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