Why Believers are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses

[Kenny'sID]

Again, from what I posted:

"The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God."

What? how can the bolded last paragraph there be the point, when they did NOT do the charity at all, the very thing Christ was getting on to them about????

The ones that did the works "showed" their hearts right.

Wow.

Again, I disagree, have clearly explained why a few times, believe as you choose....

None so blind.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yeah no. You went into what?

The sheep and the goats, I went into that several posts back, sorry you missed it, but I doubt it matters.

 

[Theo Book]

Especially clear is this:


2 Corinthians 3:7-8

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?

To those who insist that the Old Covenant Law is broken up into several categories and only the "ceremonial law" was nailed to Yeshua's cross, and s we are required to keep the 7th day Sabbath, I encourage you to look again to the above Scripture... what was actually "carved in letters on stone"?

This post is so good I want to share more with you because I know you at least, understand the point -

Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

II Cor 3:7-8 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Some insist the Ten-Commandment law written in stone was "The Law" given to Moses, and that only ceremonial laws and ordinances were taken out of the way; and that the old testament laws written on two tables of stone by the finger of God are still binding ("written in stone") upon Christians.

To those who insist that the Law of Moses was categorized and only the "ceremonial law was nailed to Messiah's cross, therefore we are required to keep the Sabbath day," Consider again the above reference to see what it was actually that was "carved into stone."

The laws, commandments, ordinances and minutea of the law of Moses are referenced as "The Letter Of The Law" while Christians are commanded to subscribe to "The Spirit of the Law."

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

II Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

And that is in keeping with the standard revealed by God Himself in both Testaments - "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hos 6:6)

Mat 9:10-13
"And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Mat 12:1-7
"At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless."

It was always the spirit of the law God wanted His people to adhere to their hearts.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Differing views result in comebacks,

Actually that is not true based on your definition. Differing views can be made with a lot of prayer, not quick quips (which is prevalent from both sides and should not be characterized by you as only coming from those who you disagree. Mutual respect Kenny, that's how followers of Yeshua should act.

and I use the term because it is a favorite taught to negate the truth. It IS a comeback.

lol. If that's the case, which it isn't, you are insulting yourself as well as those who you agree with as you've made comebacks to negate truth as well as other law keepers.

 

[Doug Melven]

If so, does that mean that since they weren't saved, they go to hell, but those that are saved, don't have to do the works/can act just like them, but don't go to Hell?

Why do you you keep saying something that I am not saying?
I never said not being under the 10 commandments gives me a license to sin or desire to sin or wish to disobey God's law.
I do say that I do not need a list of rules to know what God wants of me. I have a personal relationship with Him.

he Goats thought they were just fine, jut exactly like anyone who claims no works necessary, and they can act as they want, they are saved by grace/faith alone....in their minds. the Goats deluded themselves, because they didn't wan to do as Christ clearly says we must do....then they are all like...Huh? when Christ calls them on it. It's so clear to me they thought they were saved.

The goats never said they were depending on the blood of Jesus for there salvation. All they had was works.
Check out Romans 4
4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

They were "workers of iniquity", because in their minds, they didn't have to obey the law, or Christ...remind you of anyone?

Actually they thought there works were sufficient. They were doing all of those works, thinking that would be enough. Look in Matt 7
7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
They called Him Lord, they prophesied in His name, they cast out devils in His name and they did many wonderful works in His name. But Jesus said the only ones that were going to make it were those that did the will of the Father. And what is the will of the Father?
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

they didn't have to obey the law, or Christ...remind you of anyone?

I am assuming you are directing this at me. I never said that. When God/Christ tells me His will, cause I can hear His Voice, I obey it. Please stop saying stuff that is not being said. It is totally out of character of someone who is saying they are Christlike. I don't recall Christ ever being sarcastic.

 

[listed]

Yet this is what you keep saying that no one is saying to you. If no one is saying what your saying than you have no argument. If you have no argument what are you arguing about? No one is saying or believes that they are saved by the works of the law. Only you are making these claims and if the argument is not there why build it? If you keep building something that is not there when people have told you otherwise, then it becomes a groundless accusation not based on any facts except an attempt to draw others away from the Word of God when you have provided none. It just becomes an attempt at flaming and goading. Please see Post # 99 again (linked)

Good attempt at closing the mouth of an opponent.

 

[listed]

God's Word says anyone practicing known, unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom.
(Acts 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9; Psalms 1:5; 2 Peter 3:7; Jude 1:14-15; Romans 6:23; Ecclesiastes 12:13; Isaiah 1:28; Isaiah 13:9; Isaiah 33:14; Ezekiel 18:20-24; Proverbs 8:36; Ezekiel 33:12.. etc etc etc)

God's Word says known, unrepentant SIN will keep us out of God's Kingdom because it is UNBELIEF in God's Word and we are only saved by believing God and by faith following him who loves all.

All things considered I can't believe you posted this.

 

[Doug Melven]

No one is saying or believes that they are saved by the works of the law.

Actually you did say that.

This agrees with what has already been written......... If you SIN you break God's Law (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). If you SIN once you become a believer you need to repent and seek God's forgiveness (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9; Proverbs 28:13). God's Law gives all a knowledge of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 3:20; Psalms 119:172), without God's Law you do not know what SIN is.

You are saying once I am saved, and if I sin I am back under the law.
How is that not needing to keep the law to be saved? If I lose my God given righteousness each time I sin?

 

[listed]

Who here is relying on the law for salvation?

Those who promote a requirement of keeping the law.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Grace and the Law are NOT mutually exclusive...

Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is One God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? By no means! Instead, we uphold the Law...

We are saved by grace and justified as righteous through Yeshua. We are saved from the CURSE of the Law. Love God and your neighbor...the first 4 commandments and the last 6 commandments. Why is the 5th Commandment listed before the last 5? Because your parents are the first humans you love and they teach you the other 5.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why do you you keep saying something that I am not saying?
I never said not being under the 10 commandments gives me a license to sin or desire to sin or wish to disobey God's law.
I do say that I do not need a list of rules to know what God wants of me. I have a personal relationship with Him.

Could you please just answer that question?

The goats never said they were depending on the blood of Jesus for there salvation. All they had was works.

They didn't have to, they didn't say a lot of things, the indication is clear....believe what you choose. At the very best, you don't know if they did or not. To me its clear as a bell they thought they were fine, and I already explained why. Being fine would mean they accepted Christ, thought that was enough, but didn't prove their faith, just like some people I know. How can anyone not see that?

Actually they thought there works were sufficient. They were doing all of those works, thinking that would be enough.

No, they were NOT doing the works Christ said they should have, it's right there in black and white. There is not a single word about them doing any works, and you are they second to claim that...they didn't have to in their mind. Where do you all get that they though their works, that there is no mention of, was sufficient? Looks to me like that is completely made up/pulled right out of thin air.

I am assuming you are directing this at me.

No, it was aimed at no one in particular, it was a general comment towards certain attitudes anywhere.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Those who promote a requirement of keeping the law.

Can you go on a murderous/lying spree for the rest of you life without repentance and still get to heaven because you are saved by faith/grace alone, and not how you act?

 

[FreeAtLast]

The sheep and the goats, I went into that several posts back, sorry you missed it, but I doubt it matters.

haha, boy you can't resist those insults, can you? Whatevs Kenny. And, since you are keen to say that you wrote a post on it, why not be a gentleman and provide the post #?

 

[FreeAtLast]

Those who promote a requirement of keeping the law.

AMEN!

 

[Doug Melven]

2 Cor 5
5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

I am in Christ, and He made me righteous apart from my works. Rom 4:4
Now if I commit a sin, break God's law by committing an unrighteous act, I am still righteous. Because He said He would be merciful to my unrighteousness and He would not remember my sins and iniquities anymore.
Let's look at Romans 5 for more on this.
5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

He died for me while I was still a sinner, His enemy, but now that He has justified me. I shall be saved from His wrath. Either God is your enemy and you are under His wrath or He is ecstatically head over heels in love with you. Zephaniah 3:17 There is no halfway point here.

5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
My sin did not make me a sinner. Adam's sin being passed down to me made me a sinner and I sinned because of it.
5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

He justified me apart from my works and offences. Why would my sin make me unrighteous when my works did not have any part in making me righteous.
Why would I need to seek forgiveness when He said He would not impute my sin to me.
Not only does He not impute my sin to me, He cast my sin as far as the East is from the West away from me.
Psalm 103:10-12

Now before someone comes along and says, "So does that mean we can just go out and live lives of sin because I am forgiven"?
Check out the story in Luke 7:37-50
7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

When you know all your sins are forgiven, you WILL love much.

 

[Doug Melven]

Could you please just answer that question?

What question?

They didn't have to, they didn't say a lot of things, the indication is clear....believe what you choose. At the very best, you don't know if they did or not. To me its clear as a bell they thought they were fine

I showed what works they did. Here it is again.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
They called Him Lord, they prophesied in His name, they cast out devils in His name and they did many wonderful works in His name. But Jesus said the only ones that were going to make it were those that did the will of the Father. And what is the will of the Father?

They pointed to there works, not there relationship.

 

[Doug Melven]

And the part that says that the Law has changed or is done away with? Where does it say that? The Law/Torah as referenced in Jeremiah 31:33 makes no mention of an altered Law/Torah, but is a reference to what the Law/Torah has always been previous to Jeremiah - the first five books of the Bible in it's entirety.

Also, please explain how God can be making a "new" covenant (as in it makes the original covenant old/done away with) if the original covenant is described as an "everlasting" covenant in Genesis 17:7 and God does not change His mind (Numbers 23:19).

Given that the original covenant is an everlasting covenant as God says in Genesis 17:7, it makes more sense to interpret "chadash" - the Hebrew word that is translated to "new" in Jeremiah 31:31 - as "fresh" or "renewed". See the definition for "chadash" in the link below (I don't know why the link shows up as Genesis 1:1 - clicking on the link doesn't take you to Genesis 1:1):

Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Paul quotes this in Galatians 3
3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
And as you said it would be "fresh, renewed". God knew He was going to make a New Covenant to replace the Old. Thank you for pointing that out about the Hebrew word "chadash" I hadn't caught that before.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What question?

The one you replied to but didn't answer the question.

I showed what works they did. Here it is again.

You are correct, and good point.

They pointed to there works, not there relationship.

And Christ pointed to what? The main reason for the parable...it was of course the fact that they did no works. They did things that cost them nothing. They were selfish, they didn't show their faith. They "said" they cat out demons, but did they really? Either way they didn't show the love/caring attitude...giving of themselves without expectation of reward so Christ never knew them.

And we're just talking works here...that and obeying Gods written rules are a separate issues. Just so we're clear, and it maybe we are, but works are doing good things and obeying God is not doing bad things.

Let me also be clear, when I say some things here they are not necessary directed at all who differ from my opinion. There are many flavors to your side of this and some take it way over the line, I've seen it happen, so I say what I feel I must.

If someone isn't guilty, I'm not talking to them.

 

[1213]

...However, as the Scriptures posted state, the Old Covenant Law of Moses IS an unbearable yoke...

Now therefore why do you tempt God, that you should put a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:10

It says only that they were not able to bear it, not that it is unbearable.

 

[1213]

...We are saying it is not for believers.
In order to use the law in a lawful manner, it should be used for the purpose for which it was designed.
That is to expose sin.
An unbeliever needs to know that they have broken God's law and are in need of a Savior.
Unless they acknowledge that they are a sinner, they will not come to Christ.
To teach the law to a believer is using the law in an unlawful manner.

Does that mean Jesus is speaking unlawfully in this?

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19