(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[Bob S]

I read that the New Covenant is made with Israel and Judah.

You read correctly. What you have not read or taken to heart is where Jesus has included every living soul on this Earth in the new covenant.

If the people of the world want to join theirselves into God's chosen people then they can be included too. But scripturally speaking it was made with the whole house of Israel.

Have you not read where Isreal failed to obey the covenant and they lost it? Have you not read where because they failed to keep the covenant God has made all equal meaning that we are all chosen now?

It is inclusive and we know that God does not desire that any should perish but that all would be saved. But His plan was to choose a people to work His plan of salvation through.

Yes, you chose the correct tense when you wrote "WAS". They refused to abide by the covenant, so gentiles are chosen. Who do you think is spreading the Gospel to the World today? Well it certainly is not being spread by 99% of the Jews.

For a reference see Jer 31.

Better yet read Heb 9
6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

Does that sound like the old one warmed over?

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

 

[listed]

I would ask if the law is only instructions, why did Israel suffer for not following them? I would also want to know why other nations were did not suffer for not keeping them.

bugkiller

Good question.

 

[listed]

That is really bad news because God Himself said that;

Jer 31:35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation


Hmm, someone has gotten their information wrong. I wonder who.


Isa 11:11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The remnant of His people, who will remain,
From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the islands of the sea.
12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.


Hmm, God still has a remnant of Israel and they will be here until Messiah returns. Yep, someone has gotten their information wrong!


Jer 23:7 "Therefore behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when they will no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ Then they will live on their own soil.”


Yep, God has other plans than your's it would seem.


But wait maybe there are some that only believes what's in the NT;


Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.


God doesn't change.

But my sovereign God can change or revoke a covenant. If not Jeremiah and Jesus are both liars.

 

[Bob S]

I would ask if the law is only instructions, why did Israel suffer for not following them? I would also want to know why other nations were did not suffer for not keeping them.

bugkiller

Because the law was not given for salvation, it was given to make Israel's stay in Canaan one that would make them a Holy nation IF they would have kept it. All of God's children are saved the same way and it has nothing to do with the law given to Israel. Israel is defunct as a Biblical nation and so is the law given only to them.

 

[Dig4truth]

You read correctly. What you have not read or taken to heart is where Jesus has included every living soul on this Earth in the new covenant.


Have you not read where Isreal failed to obey the covenant and they lost it? Have you not read where because they failed to keep the covenant God has made all equal meaning that we are all chosen now?

Yes, you chose the correct tense when you wrote "WAS". They refused to abide by the covenant, so gentiles are chosen. Who do you think is spreading the Gospel to the World today? Well it certainly is not being spread by 99% of the Jews.

Better yet read Heb 9
6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

Does that sound like the old one warmed over?

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

I would like to see some Scripture to support your claims.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Hello Dig4truth.

Yes, Israel as a nation vanished two thousand years ago.

The old covenant was broken by God, the nation lost it's promised land.

Israel is no longer the covenant nation.

Physical Israel is no longer the covenant nation.

But Spiritual Israel can still partake of the covenant.

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why does New Testament Scripture refer to the GOD OF ISRAEL, and not the God of humanity"?

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why does it not say redeemed humanity instead distinctly mentioning "Israel"?
Luke 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Who will the "King of Israel" rule over?
John 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why would it be necessary to give repentance and a Savior TO ISRAEL instead of humanity?
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why would God sent the WORD EVEN AFTER Jesus Crucifixion unto the children of Israel, and not humanity?
Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

Why would God raise up a Savior unto an "extict" nation, and not all of humanity?
Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are extinct;

How could God make a covenant in the latter days to Israel?
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Why would Jesus be sent unto the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL?
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Why would Jesus instruct His Apostles to go STRICTLY TO the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL, and not humanity?
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Then why are the 144,000 ALL of the 12 tribes of Israel?
Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



If God's people (Spiritual Israel) are to be extinct;(Satan's GOAL!)

Why do each of the 12 gates of New Jerusalem bear their respective name of each of the 12 tribes?
Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes ofthe children of Israel:


Name ONE,

JUST ONE REFERENCE in NEW OR OLD TESTAMENT KJV SCRIPTURE that has NOT been paraphrased

that ever mentions "Christian's" OVER ISRAEL as God's chosen people.

 

[Devin P]

I think the only question is, which laws are binding upon us? Men have different laws than women, Jews have different laws than Gentiles, etc. We need to faithfully obey those laws that are ours to obey.

Absolutely. Absolutely agree 100%. Yeah, some people argue the "well then are you keeping all 613!?!". Well no, because I'm not a levitical priest, of the lineage of Aaron, nor am I in the land, nor does that priesthood stand, nor am I a farmer, nor a king, nor a levite, nor a Godly ordained judge, nor a slave owner, nor a.... you get my point.

Yeah, that's really all we have to worry about for now, is learning which ones apply to us, and then doing our best to keep them. For me, as a single man, there's only like 150-200 I really have to keep, but I live in America, the land of 1,450,000 laws, so pfft, cake walk in comparison haha.

( note: 1,450,000 is a made up number. Idk how many we have, it just seems like that sometimes. )

 

[Devin P]

Because it is. The primary reason is the stuff being posted about a renewed covenant.

bugkiller

The covenant was renewed. It's not a "new" covenant in the sense that it's nothing like it was once before. Israel has always been forgiven by faith. Israel and God's children have always been forgiven by faith, that's why Abraham was justified by faith.

Jesus didn't die just to forgive us of sins, it was to free God's children from the curse that they had bound themselves to. According to Torah (God's instructions, or laws), when a husband divorces his wife for reason of adultery, that wife cannot marry another all of her days until either she dies, and thus cannot marry, or her husband dies, and she becomes free from the curse she was bound to walk out all of her days. Well, Israel was unfaithful countless times, until finally God divorced her, cursing (according to Torah) Israel to be without a connection to God until either everyone perished, or, God died. God is God.... He will never die, therefore Judah (back then, as well as still today that don't believe in Messiah) thought that according to Torah, they were cursed never to return again to God. This is why Jesus died, to free them, and us, from this curse. God died, so we could reunite with Him. He loves us so much, that He gave Himself to free us from the punishment that we rightfully deserve.

We now, are reunited with Him, through faith, just as it's always been. Think about it, no one can ever come face to face with God, lest they die. But, Moses did. Why? Was he perfect? No, he just had faith. He was the most "meek" in the world. Meek means submissive, meaning, he submitted to God's power, and sovereignty. Abraham wasn't perfect, and disobeyed God, but he had faith, and was justified, David wasn't perfect. He had a man killed to sleep with their wife, but yet if you read psalms, his inspiring faith becomes apparently known. God has always forgiven by faith, Jesus just made this truth known. He didn't create it, He showed it.

 

[Meowzltov]

The covenant was renewed. It's not a "new" covenant in the sense that it's nothing like it was once before. Israel has always been forgiven by faith. Israel and God's children have always been forgiven by faith, that's why Abraham was justified by faith.

As far as eternal life goes, yes, that is a renewed covenant. But the covenant of obeying the 613 commandments and the Promised Land is a separate covenant, meant only for the People of Israel.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yeah, that's really all we have to worry about for now, is learning which ones apply to us, and then doing our best to keep them. For me, as a single man, there's only like 150-200 I really have to keep, but I live in America, the land of 1,450,000 laws, so pfft, cake walk in comparison haha.

If you want to keep them, I say more power to you! You will be blessed! And I agree that it's a piece of cake. But I'm not going to tell you it is obligatory. (I don't think it's even obligatory for Jewish believers.) Who did God give the Mosaic Covenant to????? And the LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying..." God didn't give these commandments to the Nations.

 

[Devin P]

If you want to keep them, I say more power to you! You will be blessed! And I agree that it's a piece of cake. But I'm not going to tell you it is obligatory. (I don't think it's even obligatory for Jewish believers.) Who did God give the Mosaic Covenant to????? And the LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying..." God didn't give these commandments to the Nations.

And again, Jesus makes all that believe in Him children of Israel.

We are told that in the millennial reign the law still stands, so are we to believe that the law existed before Jesus, existed after, and then suddenly disappeared for 1700 years, and will reappear again after the millennial reign? No, it's an everlasting thing.

 

[bugkiller]

That is really bad news because God Himself said that;

Jer 31:35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation


Hmm, someone has gotten their information wrong. I wonder who.


Isa 11:11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The remnant of His people, who will remain,
From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the islands of the sea.
12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.


Hmm, God still has a remnant of Israel and they will be here until Messiah returns. Yep, someone has gotten their information wrong!


Jer 23:7 "Therefore behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when they will no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ Then they will live on their own soil.”


Yep, God has other plans than your's it would seem.


But wait maybe there are some that only believes what's in the NT;


Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.


God doesn't change.

What about the covenant with Noah and the difference in the law given to Israel?

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

I would like to see some Scripture to support your claims.

Normally I would be happy to oblige a request, but I have read to many of your posts and it would be a waste of my time.

 

[bugkiller]

Do you even know who the verse is referring to? Start from verse 14 and see that this is the passage that speaks about God marrying Israel again and bringing back both houses of Israel together. Wow, talk about out of context!

I call this avoidance of the verse presented. It is commonly referred to as a dodge in debate circles. There are clearly two groups in my verse and God does not about marrying both.

Yes, it's true, God's commands were for both Israel and the stranger. How can you not know this since you are trying to instruct people about God's Torah?

God's commands were for who, did you say - Israel and who? Oh a stranger. Is this just any stranger? What does your verse below say? My question is a bout the last four words. Is there a reason you ignore the last four definitive words? Could it be you do not want to believe what you post?

Num 15:15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the Lord. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”

I have been as respectful as possible. If you have a complaint then address it.

I am truly sorry if you think I am disrespectful. Keep in mind that does not mean I have to accept your words to be respectful.

I used a phrase, "under the law" of Paul and asked which law he was referring to. You have not answered that. So, which law is he referring to? Also, what does he mean by that phrase?

Paul's phrase is always not under the law unless he is talking about Jews. We can discuss each of the texts with you chosen words in them. I will not leave any of them out.

I believe that you may have overlooked a passage in 2 Peter about Paul's writings.

Oh? would that be 3:16 per chance?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. But the Scripture I posted is very clear. In it, Yeshua says that those who practice lawlessness will have to depart from Him, did it not? Is this too hard to understand?

You define lawlessness as not keeping your selected and amended parts of the law. I define lawlessness as being disobedient to Jesus the Christ. Jesus said -

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Jn 13

I ask you, how can that be lawless?

You can have your private interpretations if you wish but I would listen to Yeshua's words carefully.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

You can threaten or beat me with God's word all you like. It will avail you nothing. The will of God the Father is -

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. I JN 3

Notice - he who does the will of My Father!
Notice - those who practice lawlessness (not doing the will of His Father) must depart from Him!

But I'm sure you'll find that verse that Paul wrote and straighten this all out.

I return your very own words back to you with more text to consider.

Please make note I did not use anything from Paul's works to defend anything. I did make some comments about what Paul said if you want to pursue the "under the law" issue.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The Hebrew word "Guwr" also means to remain, inhabit, to settle, dwell, and continue. [Strongs 1481]

Verse 14 is rather telling also;

Num 15:14 If an alien sojourns with you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wishes to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord, just as you do so he shall do.

Is the Lord going to let a stranger, a passerby in the night, approach Him in the same way as His chosen people?






Cherry picked verses? Really!?
How is the clear meaning of these verses somehow misinterpreted?

The paragraph before this sums up with;
So then, you will know them by their fruits.

That is exactly what Yeshua was commenting on.
Please explain how this is cherry picking.

You speak of love but have not mentioned that the whole of the law is based on love. Why is that? Need I cherry pick a quote from Yeshua to support this or is it self evident?

What about one from Paul?

Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

You knew I couldn't resist, right?

You do not need me to lend you a shovel. You are diging a nice hole for yourself by yourself.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Can you point me to a Covenant that God made with any other people than Israel? I can't think of any. Thanks.

What about Noah? Your claim is a person must become a Jew in order to have salvation. This is a denial of the Gospels and Acts.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I read that the New Covenant is made with Israel and Judah.
If the people of the world want to join theirselves into God's chosen people then they can be included too. But scripturally speaking it was made with the whole house of Israel.

It is inclusive and we know that God does not desire that any should perish but that all would be saved. But His plan was to choose a people to work His plan of salvation through.

For a reference see Jer 31.

Yes we also read Jeremiah 31. We also read the Gospels and Acts and consider them as truth inspired by God.

Please note I did not include Paul's works Peter says are on the same level as Scripture. IOW they are Scripture.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yep, to the law people the new covenant is just the old one warmed over. "Until" is foreign to their vocabulary concerning Matt 5:16-17 and Paul's writings on the subject are either/or ignored or twisted.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

And again, Jesus makes all that believe in Him children of Israel.

Where is this?

We are told that in the millennial reign the law still stands, so are we to believe that the law existed before Jesus, existed after, and then suddenly disappeared for 1700 years, and will reappear again after the millennial reign? No, it's an everlasting thing.

Do not think so.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Absolutely. Absolutely agree 100%. Yeah, some people argue the "well then are you keeping all 613!?!". Well no, because I'm not a levitical priest, of the lineage of Aaron, nor am I in the land, nor does that priesthood stand, nor am I a farmer, nor a king, nor a levite, nor a Godly ordained judge, nor a slave owner, nor a.... you get my point.

Yeah, that's really all we have to worry about for now, is learning which ones apply to us, and then doing our best to keep them. For me, as a single man, there's only like 150-200 I really have to keep, but I live in America, the land of 1,450,000 laws, so pfft, cake walk in comparison haha.

( note: 1,450,000 is a made up number. Idk how many we have, it just seems like that sometimes. )

Well you just keep worrying. I have perfect peace because I accepted the invitation Jesus gave in Mat 11:28-30. You can do the same if you want to.

bugkiller