(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[bugkiller]

When Paul uses the term Law he is meaning the "instructions of God". (That's the definition [Torah]).
Are you against the instructions of God?
Do you think the instructions of God should be canceled?
Do you believe that God has come up with better instructions, you know stuff that He didn't think of before?
Are you willing to admit that you are not under the instructions of God?

When God says that the Feasts are the "Feasts of the Lord", are you suggesting that He really meant that they are the Feasts of the "Jews" only?

When the Gentiles are commended for observing the Sabbath, are they breaking the instructions of God because it is for the Jews only?


Just stuff I wonder about, don't feel obligated to answer.

Depends on who the instructions are given if I am against them for me.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

If the Law only means instructions, then why did all of the Hebrews have to PERFECTLY keep it, per God.

The Law was more than instructions. God punished them for not obeying Him. They were commands and commandments.

I would ask if the law is only instructions, why did Israel suffer for not following them? I would also want to know why other nations were did not suffer for not keeping them.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

An instruction my father gave me was to not play in the street. If a car ran over me do you think that was what my father wanted? No, it was a result of disobeying my father's instruction.

What is the difference of a command and an instruction if the person has free will? The person can choose to disobey or not.

Go with me here; if a father had a ridiculous amount of children, say 2 or 3 million, and his instruction was to not teach the other children how to disobey the father, what would be the result of that disobedience?

Would the father allow such a breach of safety? Would he be a good father if he did?

You see, the difference between an instruction and a command is in how you respond to it. If you obey the instruction then that is what it is. If you disobey the instruction then it becomes a command that was broken and the consequences must follow.

We have broken our Father's instructions and therefore are under the law (commands) with the resulting consequences (death). However, because of the unfathomable love of our Father, He has paid the penalty for our disobedience. We are no longer "under the law" in that respect. What you want me to believe is that the instructions are bad. The very thing that our Lord and Savior paid the penality for.

If that's the case then why did He have to pay for our disobedience? Why not just say that the instructions don't count any more?!!! We are free from the Father's instructions and there is no such thing as sin!

But some would have us believe that God sent His Son to die because we disobeyed His instructions and now we can live like there are no instructions.

If the Son died because we disobeyed the Father's instructions or commands, whatever you wish to call them, and now we can be "free from them" what a cheap death that would have been.

But what do the scriptures speak; we are now free to obey the Father's instructions because His spirit lives within us. The same spirit that is in Yeshua which said; “Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart.”

They said I cannot laugh here.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

In my diatribe I didn’t answer your question.

They had to keep the instructions perfectly to have access to God. God is perfect and holy and nothing less can have access.

That being said, they understood that they failed in many ways. That’s the point. They understood they needed a substitute for their transgressions.

Enter the Messaih.

Who they rejected. Now what?

bugkiller

 

[Dig4truth]

Consequences.

Have you read in the Old Testament how many times God punished the Hebrews? Even to the point of them becoming slaves in another land?

God told them they must obey ALL of His Law. Perfectly.

Maybe you need familiarize yourself with the punishments they suffered at God’s hands for disobedience

What is your point here? That sin has consequences? Thanks for that revelation.

Or perhaps your point is that God is a mean unjust God and His Torah (instructions) are bad, really bad, and now we are finally free from those horrible instructions.

But don't allow me to put words in your mouth, what was your point?

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

I asked you for a verse stating that Gentiles were under the law, I assume the following verses are what you claim. To be verses telling Gentiles that they are under the law.

A slave to righteousness is a slave to Jesus Christ, we receive the righteousness of Christ as a free gift. Your attempting to exert your own righteousness by legal obedience. These verses do not declare that Gentiles are under the law. That is inference.
I need a verse that says Gentiles are under the law.

Yet again, not one verse that actually says Gentiles are under the law, as usual inference is used to suggest a legal obedience. The law was never intended for the righteous, Christians have no use for the law. The law was made for the unrighteous, murderers, liars, e.t.c.

If you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then you are washed clean in Christ's blood.

Well that is correct, walking in the Holy Spirit means what it says. Walking in the Holy Spirit is bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, patience, kindness, e.t.c. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is the opposite of what the law condemned, i.e., sin.

A fruit of the Holy Spirit is generosity, being generous is the exact opposite of stealing.
See how bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of the law!

Still not one verse that commands the Gentiles to obey the law.

Another fruit of the Holy Spirit is gentleness, a gentle person would never kill someone.
Once again, we see the fruit of the Holy Spirit surpassing what the law required.

Yes, the blood covenant was not like the covenant that God made with Israel.

Hebrews 8:7-9
Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant
with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not like the covenant
which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

Two different covenants!

The commandments that were issued at Mt Sinai condemned Israel.

The commandments were given to herald the need for the messiah.

The commandments could only ever be obeyed by perfect love, Jesus.

God delivered the solution from all eternity, before the earth existed. We were only ever spectators to God's absolute solution to the problem of sin.

Yet without faith you will not see God, faith is a gift anyway. Stop taking credit for God's handiwork.

Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!

Easy or hard is irrelevant, what matters above all is what Christ has done for us.

Jesus did what His Father asked Him to do, to lay down His life for you.

If God holds you guilty for sin, then you will not make it to heaven.

I cannot see past the death and resurrection of the Christ, that is my redemption. My flesh is dead in Christ, I have no need of any law.

I need a verse from you that there are more than one chosen people of God.

You seem to want to separate God's people into two groups, Hebrews and non-Hebrews. Is that what the Scripture says? Does God have two groups of chosen people?

If not then His instructions are for His people, Jew and Gentile. (It was that way from the very beginning!)

Also, what do you think Paul means by the phrase "under the law"? Which law was he referring to? You do know that Paul spoke of more than one law, do you not?

I cannot see past the death and resurrection of the Christ, that is my redemption. My flesh is dead in Christ, I have no need of any law.

Here is a sobering verse for you then;

Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

 

[bugkiller]

It's not going to be that easy lol.

Let's start here: The Law makes it clear it is a sin to add to/remove from the Law (Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, and 28:14). Even if someone performs signs/miracles and then gives us new commands that add to/remove from the Law, then that person is a false prophet and we should not listen to him - in fact he should die (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

I do not believe you understand what you just said above claiming to be a Christian.

What you said makes Jeremiah and Jesus both liars. Oh yeah and Paul, too. Jeremiah because of 31:31-33 in his writing. Jesus because He is quoted as giving new commandments. Paul because he said Jesus is a priest which cannot because of the law. essentially you have attacked Christianity.

We also know that God cannot sin and sin is transgression of the Law. So, God cannot break His own Law, which means He cannot add to/remove from the Law. So, if you're saying that your version of Jesus is God and He altered the Law (added to/removed from) then He has 1) sinned, 2) would not be the sinless/"blemishless" Passover Lamb to atone for our sins, 3) would be worthy of death, and 4) would not be God.

God did not break his law. Israel broke God's law and covenant making it void. That is why God spoke through Jeremiah about a new covenant testified to be current by Jesus, God Himself. God did not change anything. God replace the covenant with a completely different one based on better promises, not law.

Side Note: Just to clarify, I feel like I need to say that I believe that Jesus is the Messiah - what I'm saying above is all hypothetical based on the idea that Jesus changed the Law. I believe that He did not change the Law, but taught the Law. I just wanted to clarify that, so, if you would, please continue to pretend that I am a Berean Jew .

Then yuo do not believe the Gospels of John and Luke.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I need a verse from you that there are more than one chosen people of God.

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Hos 2:23

You seem to want to separate God's people into two groups, Hebrews and non-Hebrews. Is that what the Scripture says? Does God have two groups of chosen people?

See above quoted verse.

If not then His instructions are for His people, Jew and Gentile. (It was that way from the very beginning!)

The famous Nope!!! is good here. Read the Book of the law.

Also, what do you think Paul means by the phrase "under the law"? Which law was he referring to? You do know that Paul spoke of more than one law, do you not?

Have you no respect at all? Most of us pro gracers have read the works of Paul and realize this is a false partial quote. Our enemy did this very thing to Eve.

Here is a sobering verse for you then;

Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

And let those who claim to keep the law and don't speak. I think there is a verse in Romans about this very thing.

bugkiller

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

Yes, Israel as a nation vanished two thousand years ago.

The old covenant was broken by God, the nation lost it's promised land.

Israel is no longer the covenant nation.

That is really bad news because God Himself said that;

Jer 31:35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation


Hmm, someone has gotten their information wrong. I wonder who.


Isa 11:11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The remnant of His people, who will remain,
From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the islands of the sea.
12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.


Hmm, God still has a remnant of Israel and they will be here until Messiah returns. Yep, someone has gotten their information wrong!


Jer 23:7 "Therefore behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when they will no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ 8 but, ‘As the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ Then they will live on their own soil.”


Yep, God has other plans than your's it would seem.


But wait maybe there are some that only believes what's in the NT;


Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.


God doesn't change.

 

[klutedavid]

I need a verse from you that there are more than one chosen people of God.

You seem to want to separate God's people into two groups, Hebrews and non-Hebrews. Is that what the Scripture says? Does God have two groups of chosen people?

If not then His instructions are for His people, Jew and Gentile. (It was that way from the very beginning!)

Also, what do you think Paul means by the phrase "under the law"? Which law was he referring to? You do know that Paul spoke of more than one law, do you not?






Here is a sobering verse for you then;

Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Hello Dig4truth.

The problem with your interpretation of the scripture is that your not reading the text.

There are two different groups in the scripture, Jews and Gentiles.

The Jews were the chosen people of God in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Israel was the chosen nation in the Old Testament, you can't argue with that.

Even in the New Testament the division between the two groups continued.

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

See, Jesus sent the apostles only to the Jews, they were told not to go to the Gentiles.

Also, Jesus was only sent to the Jews.

Matthew 15:24-26
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

The Jews are the first group in the scripture, the dogs or Gentiles come second.

You have been taught that there is only one people in the scripture which is incorrect. Jesus just told you that there were two groups.

 

[Dig4truth]

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Hos 2:23

See above quoted verse.

Do you even know who the verse is referring to? Start from verse 14 and see that this is the passage that speaks about God marrying Israel again and bringing back both houses of Israel together. Wow, talk about out of context!

The famous Nope!!! is good here. Read the Book of the law.

Yes, it's true, God's commands were for both Israel and the stranger. How can you not know this since you are trying to instruct people about God's Torah?

Num 15:15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the Lord. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”

Have you no respect at all? Most of us pro gracers have read the works of Paul and realize this is a false partial quote. Our enemy did this very thing to Eve.

I have been as respectful as possible. If you have a complaint then address it.

I used a phrase, "under the law" of Paul and asked which law he was referring to. You have not answered that. So, which law is he referring to? Also, what does he mean by that phrase?

I believe that you may have overlooked a passage in 2 Peter about Paul's writings.

And let those who claim to keep the law and don't speak. I think there is a verse in Romans about this very thing.

bugkiller

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. But the Scripture I posted is very clear. In it, Yeshua says that those who practice lawlessness will have to depart from Him, did it not? Is this too hard to understand?

You can have your private interpretations if you wish but I would listen to Yeshua's words carefully.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

Notice - he who does the will of My Father!
Notice - those who practice lawlessness (not doing the will of His Father) must depart from Him!

But I'm sure you'll find that verse that Paul wrote and straighten this all out.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Dig4truth.

Try and read the verse properly.

Num 15:15

As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the Lord. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”

The alien that sojourns with you, did you see that qualification.

Sojourn means a temporary stay.

Any Gentile living with the Jew must follow the law, but this is a temporary condition.
This verse states nothing about Gentile nations following the law. You have to read the text much more carefully, otherwise you will end up misunderstanding the Gospel.

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

Please read the paragraph before this quotation, then you will understand more what God is really looking for.

Your killing me with your cherry picked verses.

Notice - he who does the will of My Father!
Notice - those who practice lawlessness (not doing the will of His Father) must depart from Him!

The will of the Father is that you believe in Jesus Christ.

You cannot bear fruit, i.e., love, unless God grants that you may love your fellow man.

The law announces that we are not loving, not loving others is the ultimate in lawlessness. For God is love and that is the crowning definition of God.

Love from a pure heart is the goal of the Christian instruction.

 

[Open Heart]

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I think the only question is, which laws are binding upon us? Men have different laws than women, Jews have different laws than Gentiles, etc. We need to faithfully obey those laws that are ours to obey.

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

The problem with your interpretation of the scripture is that your not reading the text.

There are two different groups in the scripture, Jews and Gentiles.

The Jews were the chosen people of God in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Israel was the chosen nation in the Old Testament, you can't argue with that.

Even in the New Testament the division between the two groups continued.

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

See, Jesus sent the apostles only to the Jews, they were told not to go to the Gentiles.

Also, Jesus was only sent to the Jews.

Matthew 15:24-26
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

The Jews are the first group in the scripture, the dogs or Gentiles come second.

You have been taught that there is only one people in the scripture which is incorrect. Jesus just told you that there were two groups.

No question that there are two groups. How many are chosen? (Out of two groups only one can be chosen or there is no distinction at all)

And which group is chosen?

Those are the questions.

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.
Try and read the verse properly.
The alien that sojourns with you, did you see that qualification.
Sojourn means a temporary stay.
Any Gentile living with the Jew must follow the law, but this is a temporary condition.
This verse states nothing about Gentile nations following the law. You have to read the text much more carefully, otherwise you will end up misunderstanding the Gospel.

The Hebrew word "Guwr" also means to remain, inhabit, to settle, dwell, and continue. [Strongs 1481]

Verse 14 is rather telling also;

Num 15:14 If an alien sojourns with you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wishes to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord, just as you do so he shall do.

Is the Lord going to let a stranger, a passerby in the night, approach Him in the same way as His chosen people?

Please read the paragraph before this quotation, then you will understand more what God is really looking for.

Your killing me with your cherry picked verses.

The will of the Father is that you believe in Jesus Christ.
You cannot bear fruit, i.e., love, unless God grants that you may love your fellow man.
The law announces that we are not loving, not loving others is the ultimate in lawlessness. For God is love and that is the crowning definition of God.

Love from a pure heart is the goal of the Christian instruction.

Cherry picked verses? Really!?
How is the clear meaning of these verses somehow misinterpreted?

The paragraph before this sums up with;
So then, you will know them by their fruits.

That is exactly what Yeshua was commenting on.
Please explain how this is cherry picking.

You speak of love but have not mentioned that the whole of the law is based on love. Why is that? Need I cherry pick a quote from Yeshua to support this or is it self evident?

What about one from Paul?

Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

You knew I couldn't resist, right?

 

[Open Heart]

And which group is chosen?

Both. IN different ways, for different purposes, with different covenants.

 

[Dig4truth]

Both. IN different ways, for different purposes, with different covenants.

Can you point me to a Covenant that God made with any other people than Israel? I can't think of any. Thanks.

 

[Open Heart]

Can you point me to a Covenant that God made with any other people than Israel? I can't think of any. Thanks.

Yes, the New Covenant is made with all humankind. "For God so loved the WORLD, he gave his only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

 

[Dig4truth]

I read that the New Covenant is made with Israel and Judah.
If the people of the world want to join theirselves into God's chosen people then they can be included too. But scripturally speaking it was made with the whole house of Israel.

It is inclusive and we know that God does not desire that any should perish but that all would be saved. But His plan was to choose a people to work His plan of salvation through.

For a reference see Jer 31.

 

[Bob S]

Because it is. The primary reason is the stuff being posted about a renewed covenant.

bugkiller

Yep, to the law people the new covenant is just the old one warmed over. "Until" is foreign to their vocabulary concerning Matt 5:16-17 and Paul's writings on the subject are either/or ignored or twisted.