Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Hillsage]

Jesus was NOT created and born with a sinful nature. That is blasphemy!

And from my POV that is simply your scripturally unsupported POV. Here is my scripture which leads me to believe otherwise.

ROM 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

But, just because Jesus had the sin nature like us, doesn't mean He ever sinned, because he didn't. But he wasn't 'made' perfect, He became perfect through the things He suffered on his way to becoming perfect.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

The reason Christ was sinless and wasn't born with a sinful nature is because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Born of a Virgin...etc. You know the story. Jesus was not created either he has always existed. One with the Father. Now and forevermore. Can I get an amen?

No I can't give an amen, but I can give a scripture which states how Jesus was made just like you and me 'in EVERY RESPECT.

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.

And for me, that includes a sin nature which Jesus never yielded to, and therefore never sinned. Even though he was tempted in all things like us, according to scripture.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

So how could he be tempted like us in every respect, if He didn't have the sinful flesh nature he inherited from a human flesh mother? Or are you a Catholic who believes she was IMMACULATELY pure and sinless?

No one has to agree with me, but I am standing on scriptures as I see and believe them to be. Scriptures which I also don't really see anyone refuting in this thread.

And my, what a thread this is. Moving to fast for me to keep up with.

Nite all. And play nice, for our heavenly Father to look down and smile upon ALL of us children.

 

[Anguspure]

I'm not trying to frighten anyone away. I wanted to honestly see what other people thought on this subject. I do think that this post would be best to stay in the Controversial Theology rather than have it moved to World Religion, where none Christians could post.

I know that none of this comes from learning doctrine -- but I do believe that the Holy Spirit could work through a discussion, and open people's eyes up to the truth. I know that no one will actually be able to believe without the Holy Spirit leading them to believe.

I admit that I lost my patience with the person who posted the Unitarian website links and list of Bible verses. I wasn't feeling well when I read his posts, which is no excuse. And I am sorry for my actions on that, as I didn't treat him in the most loving way that I could have.

Please don't take it that what I wrote was meant against you personally, I didn't even see the post you are referring to TBH.
I meant to engage with the argument where I saw it at the time, and in a general sense the practice of beating people over the head with academic theological doctrine before they can be accepted is a common practice of the Church.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

I thought I'd share my personal studies that I have done for over 25 years now, on the Holy Trinity. Please feel free to comment/criticize/give advice, if you will. STUDIES ON THE HOLY TRINITY

 

[com7fy8]

That would seem to deny that Jesus was fully human then, which would actually deny the hypostatic union....

Fully human would include being able to sin, and I am sure Jesus who is God is incapable of sinning > James 1:13.

Also, God can not change; so God could not change from being divine to being fully human like a created being is human.

So, I would need for someone to speak for oneself about what he or she means by fully human and hypostatic union. And what one group claims is heresy does not necessarily speak for what God considers to be heresy.

Hebrews 2:14-15 says Jesus partook of flesh and blood. This means He lived in a flesh and blood body like we do. But it does not say He had our human nature which is capable of sinning. So, someone would need to explain what he or she means by "fully human", if it does not mean Jesus was capable of sinning.

Another thing it can not mean, Biblically, is that Jesus could become angry, for one example, like we can, because "the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God" (James 1:20). The way humans get angry is sinful if it is in their own human egos. The way Jesus got angry was righteous in the Holy Spirit and oneness with our Heavenly Father, since Jesus and the Father are one and the Father in Jesus did the works.

So, in case anyone claims that Jesus had human emotions the way we do, this is not correct, since His emotions were spiritually rooted in God, and our emotions often are of our own egos and sin, mainly about our own selves and ones we prefer to love while we do not love any and all people as ourselves.

Jesus was always about God and loving.

However, it is clear He got hungry and tired. But I consider this was only in His body. So, this could be what ones mean by fully human. He could experience what His body could feel. But He could not be controlled by how His body was hungry or suffering. Because, deeper, He was almighty in control.

And so, Jesus could not be controlled by emotions which are dominating and dictatorial, like we humans can be.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

Fully human would include being able to sin, and I am sure Jesus who is God is incapable of sinning > James 1:13.

Also, God can not change; so God could not change from being divine to being fully human like a created being is human.

So, I would need for someone to speak for oneself about what he or she means by fully human and hypostatic union. And what one group claims is heresy does not necessarily speak for what God considers to be heresy.

Hebrews 2:14-15 says Jesus partook of flesh and blood. This means He lived in a flesh and blood body like we do. But it does not say He had our human nature which is capable of sinning. So, someone would need to explain what he or she means by "fully human", if it does not mean Jesus was capable of sinning.

Another thing it can not mean, Biblically, is that Jesus could become angry, for one example, like we can, because "the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God" (James 1:20). The way humans get angry is sinful if it is in their own human egos. The way Jesus got angry was righteous in the Holy Spirit and oneness with our Heavenly Father, since Jesus and the Father are one and the Father in Jesus did the works.

So, in case anyone claims that Jesus had human emotions the way we do, this is not correct, since His emotions were spiritually rooted in God, and our emotions often are of our own egos and sin, mainly about our own selves and ones we prefer to love while we do not love any and all people as ourselves.

Jesus was always about God and loving.

However, it is clear He got hungry and tired. But I consider this was only in His body. So, this could be what ones mean by fully human. He could experience what His body could feel. But He could not be controlled by how His body was hungry or suffering. Because, deeper, He was almighty in control.

And so, Jesus could not be controlled by emotions which are dominating and dictatorial, like we humans can be.

Please see my two studies on the "human nature" of the Lord Jesus Christ

http://www.trinitystudies.org/Jesus/human_nature.pdf

http://www.trinitystudies.org/Jesus/mat1-16_lk1-35.pdf

 

[The Times]

Correct -- the Word was uncreated. This is made even more clear by comparing John 1:1-5 with Colossians 1:15-17.

That is right, the term uncreated is the correct one.

By the way.....
Happy Birthday.

 

[Danthemailman]

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

 

[Neostarwcc]

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

I believe that when Jesus spoke these words that he was saying "If you don't believe I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins.". I believe that this is the bare minimum for a person to be saved. Believing in the Gospel. Which is the death,burial, and resurrection of our Lord and basically, that he is the Messiah. Why do I believe this? Well for one, when I came to Jesus for salvation I didn't believe that he was God. I didn't know anything about the divinity of God or really ANYTHING about Jesus. I didn't know anything about the Bible or what was in it or barely even that it existed. I didn't even believe IN God when I came to Jesus for salvation. I was an atheist. All I believed was that he was the Messiah and that he was the only way into Heaven and that, he could save me from my sins which I read all of this on a website and I believed it.

Was I not saved and given the Holy Spirit then? I don't think so for reasons I won't be posting here. I was just as saved as any other Christian who believed the gospel and came to Jesus for salvation. Jesus and the HS took care of the rest and I believe that Jesus is God now and I believe in the Trinity now and many of the "right" things. But, it took three years after I got saved to believe these things. But, believing these "right" things isn't required for salvation. I don't think so. I got saved the day I believed the Gospel and came to Jesus for salvation. Believing that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, that he can save you from yours sins, and believing in the Gospel is what saves. NOT doctrine.

 

[Neostarwcc]

And from my POV that is simply your scripturally unsupported POV. Here is my scripture which leads me to believe otherwise.

ROM 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

But, just because Jesus had the sin nature like us, doesn't mean He ever sinned, because he didn't. But he wasn't 'made' perfect, He became perfect through the things He suffered on his way to becoming perfect.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.


No I can't give an amen, but I can give a scripture which states how Jesus was made just like you and me 'in EVERY RESPECT.

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.

And for me, that includes a sin nature which Jesus never yielded to, and therefore never sinned. Even though he was tempted in all things like us, according to scripture.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

So how could he be tempted like us in every respect, if He didn't have the sinful flesh nature he inherited from a human flesh mother? Or are you a Catholic who believes she was IMMACULATELY pure and sinless?

No one has to agree with me, but I am standing on scriptures as I see and believe them to be. Scriptures which I also don't really see anyone refuting in this thread.

And my, what a thread this is. Moving to fast for me to keep up with.

Nite all. And play nice, for our heavenly Father to look down and smile upon ALL of us children.

I disagree. Doesn't scripture and the Trinity say that Jesus has always coexisted with the Father and the Holy Spirit?

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

I believe that when Jesus spoke these words that he was saying "If you don't believe I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins.". I believe that this is the bare minimum for a person to be saved. Believing in the Gospel. Which is the death,burial, and resurrection of our Lord and basically, that he is the Messiah. Why do I believe this? Well for one, when I came to Jesus for salvation I didn't believe that he was God. I didn't know anything about the divinity of God or really ANYTHING about Jesus. I didn't know anything about the Bible or what was in it or barely even that it existed. I didn't even believe IN God when I came to Jesus for salvation. I was an atheist. All I believed was that he was the Messiah and that he was the only way into Heaven and that, he could save me from my sins which I read all of this on a website and I believed it.

Was I not saved and given the Holy Spirit then? I don't think so for reasons I won't be posting here. I was just as saved as any other Christian who believed the gospel and came to Jesus for salvation. Jesus and the HS took care of the rest and I believe that Jesus is God now and I believe in the Trinity now and many of the "right" things. But, it took three years after I got saved to believe these things. But, believing these "right" things isn't required for salvation. I don't think so. I got saved the day I believed the Gospel and came to Jesus for salvation. Believing that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, that he can save you from yours sins, and believing in the Gospel is what saves. NOT doctrine.

Jesus was saying in John 8:24, that if anyone does not believe "that I am Yahweh", then you will die in your sins and be going to hell. You see, it is not enough to simply believe that "Jesus is the Messiah", which He IS. The more important issue is, WHO is this "Messiah"? Is He, as the Bible clearly teaches, the Eternal God, Who for our sins became fully Man (without sin), to deliver us from spiritual destruction; or, as the Jews falsely suppose to be a "deliverer" from their earthly problems? Jesus being Yahweh and The Messiah, are not separable, like a sinner cannot simply accept Jesus as their "Saviour", and not their "Lord", as many are falsely teaching these days. Jesus Christ is not only "The Son of God", He is "God the Son".

 

[Neostarwcc]

Jesus was saying in John 8:24, that if anyone does not believe "that I am Yahweh", then you will die in your sins and be going to hell. You see, it is not enough to simply believe that "Jesus is the Messiah", which He IS. The more important issue is, WHO is this "Messiah"? Is He, as the Bible clearly teaches, the Eternal God, Who for our sins became fully Man (without sin), to deliver us from spiritual destruction; or, as the Jews falsely suppose to be a "deliverer" from their earthly problems? Jesus being Yahweh and The Messiah, are not separable, like a sinner cannot simply accept Jesus as their "Saviour", and not their "Lord", as many are falsely teaching these days. Jesus Christ is not only "The Son of God", He is "God the Son".

So you're saying that I wasn't saved when I first came to Jesus for salvation? Because, I didn't even know who God was back then. I disagree But, I have my reasons. You're the one that understands Greek and knows what was meant by that verse But, I still have to disagree.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

So you're saying that I wasn't saved when I first came to Jesus for salvation? Because, I didn't even know who God was back then. I disagree But, I have my reasons. You're the one that understands Greek and knows what was meant by that verse But, I still have to disagree.

I cannot question yours or anyone else' salvation or walk with the Lord. What I am saying is that what Jesus means here in the verse and context, is that Faith in Him as the Eternal God, Who became Man, is essential for any sinner to be saved. A "human messiah" can save no one! A friend of mine said to me when she first got saved, some 30 years ago, that she repented of her sins, but was "saved" a week later! God the Holy Spirit does things differently in people, and only He knows the heart. All we can do is present the Scriptures as they are. Our understanding of the Holy Bible does know come from knowing "Greek" or "theology", but the Holy Spirit Who alone leads us into the Truth. I have no doubt that my interpretations are also wrong!

 

[Neostarwcc]

I cannot question yours or anyone else' salvation or walk with the Lord. What I am saying is that what Jesus means here in the verse and context, is that Faith in Him as the Eternal God, Who became Man, is essential for any sinner to be saved. A "human messiah" can save no one! A friend of mine said to me when she first got saved, some 30 years ago, that she repented of her sins, but was "saved" a week later! God the Holy Spirit does things differently in people, and only He knows the heart. All we can do is present the Scriptures as they are. Our understanding of the Holy Bible does know come from knowing "Greek" or "theology", but the Holy Spirit Who alone leads us into the Truth. I have no doubt that my interpretations are also wrong!

I know. And, I guess I agree with you as to what the verse said? I cannot really dispute it. You're the one that understands Greek so you'd obviously know what you're talking about more than I would. I just don't think that I wasn't saved back then though. That's what I disagree with. Because, if I had not been saved back then Jesus would have tricked me and that's just something that as God he cannot do. It isn't anywhere in scripture that Jesus is a tricker and deceiver. That's Satan's job. I know Jesus didn't lie to me. I KNOW for 100% certainty that I was born again that day and born again people are saved right? Because, how can a person with a sinless spirit and have the Holy Spirit living inside of them go to Hell? It wouldn't make sense.

 

[AlexDTX]

I agree that YHWH is three in one.

However, I disagree with how you are conceiving of this. I would not attach the name Jesus to all three Persons. I would only attach that to the Son/the Word, and He is still God/YHWH.

The other two Persons are the Father and the Holy Spirit, which are both God/YHWH as well.

This is academic, so it does not really matter. However, He is one person in three persons which is why I say He is Jesus the Father and Jesus the Spirit as well as the Word and the man. To each your own.

 

[Radagast]

This is academic, so it does not really matter. However, He is one person in three persons which is why I say He is Jesus the Father and Jesus the Spirit as well as the Word and the man. To each your own.

Jesus is not the Father. That would be the heresy of patripassianism. It contradicts the Nicene Creed, which is the statement of faith for this website.

 

[he-man]

First of all, I wanted to apologize for snapping at you when you posted that long list of verses and stuff from the Unitarian website. I should not have responded that way. I wasn't feeling well, but that is no excuse. I am sorry. First of all, I'm not sure how much of this thread you read before you started posting, but although I believe that Jesus is YHWH, I am not trying to argue that Jesus is the Father. With that said... If you are trying to argue against Jesus being the Father, you won't get any issue with me on that. Since Jesus is not the Father, I see no problem with Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. Both Jesus and the Father are YHWH, yet they are distinct Persons.Again, I see no problem with Jesus and the Father being different Persons, and I see no problem with Christ belonging to the Father. He is still one God. How is that all in all in 1 Corinthians 15:28 -- because if both the Father and Son are YHWH, then that would make Him all in all.

First of all, I wanted to apologize for snapping at you when you posted that long list of verses and stuff from the Unitarian website. I should not have responded that way. I wasn't feeling well, but that is no excuse. I am sorry.

First of all, I'm not sure how much of this thread you read before you started posting, but although I believe that Jesus is YHWH, I am not trying to argue that Jesus is the Father.

With that said...
If you are trying to argue against Jesus being the Father, you won't get any issue with me on that.

Since Jesus is not the Father, I see no problem with Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. Both Jesus and the Father are YHWH, yet they are distinct Persons.

Again, I see no problem with Jesus and the Father being different Persons, and I see no problem with Christ belonging to the Father. He is still one God.

How is that all in all in 1 Corinthians 15:28 -- because if both the Father and Son are YHWH, then that would make Him all in all.

Okay, but why does Jesus say Matthew 20:23 "to sit on my right hand my left is not mine to give ...but the Fathers"?

 

[AlexDTX]

Jesus is not the Father. That would be the heresy of patripassianism. It contradicts the Nicene Creed, which is the statement of faith for this website.


View attachment 208894

I don't care what others have said in the past. To me that is mere academics. I walk with God and listen to him. Nor do I believe that when Jesus prayed to the Father that he was praying to one third of the trinity. He was praying to God as a whole, as a man. Thus when we pray to the Father we are praying to God as a whole as men, too.

Do you really think God cares of doctrines labeled heresy, when someone has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ with the new birth? It is men who decide what is heresy.

Also, regarding what the doctrine of the website it, it is clear the forum is open for all kinds of discussion. They do not control those discussions, only the behavior of the comments that goad, flame, or call others non-Christians who are Christians.

As I said, to each your own.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

That is right, the term uncreated is the correct one.

By the way.....
Happy Birthday.

Thanks

Hey, guys, I probably won't have the time today to answer each and every post. Some of it will have to wait until tomorrow or Monday. I just want to make sure that everyone knows I am not ignoring their comments.

 

[Radagast]

Also, regarding what the doctrine of the website it, it is clear the forum is open for all kinds of discussion.

Well, actually, the website rules specify that the "Christians Only" sections are reserved for those who accept the website's Statement of Faith.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Jesus is not the Father. That would be the heresy of patripassianism. It contradicts the Nicene Creed, which is the statement of faith for this website.


View attachment 208894

Thanks for posting this. Sometimes diagrams are easier to show what we are talking about rather than just words.

If we replace the word "God" with "YHWH" in this diagram, this may make things a little clearer that we are talking about one God in three Persons. But for other people, the term "God" might be easier. Either way, we know that each of the points on the triangle is a Person, and the middle is the one God.

The is a diagram of what the Athanasian Creed says